Halla Murr
Skullbreakers
43
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Posted - 2014.10.14 04:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Bahirae Serugiusu wrote:Lets see Installations have a massive blindspot, militia tanks at best can get points for damaging a standard dropship with one shot, militia forge guns can barely strip shields on a Incubus, militia swarms can barely strip shields on a LAV, kamikaze dropships would work assuming they are flying a Python and don't see you before its to late.
Installations do have a blindspot, this is true. That does not mean that an ADS is invulnerable while above the installation: said infantry player manning the installation could quite easily have a Swarm/Forge/PLC and hop off to shoot at the now relatively stationary target (if they're maintaining position to avoid being shot.)
MLT FGs: they are not nearlly as effective as proper AV, this is correct. But a MFG charges as fast as and does as much damage as a STD FG. Thing is, most ADSs are tanked to PRO levels (ie, using the best modules available) because that is the only way to survive, and considering even the cheapest fit is still more expensive than almost every dropsuit (I think a MLT ADS might cost less than a fully outfitted PRO Logi, though I'm not certain on that) it isn't worth losing a marginally cheaper 'ship when fitting it properly would have kept you alive.
MLT Swarms: again, substantially less effective than skilled AV. Not exactly unreasonable. But that does not mean that they are not threatening. Anecdotally; I ran a completely unskilled (Anti-Armour fit, 0 SP in AV or relevant skills) and while I did not kill the enemy Python, I knocked it's shields to 1/3rd strength (from roughly 2600 down to 1000) with two volleys - this was enough to net me Vehicle Damage WP (equivalent to more than an infantry kill.) That fit risked zero investment (SP or ISK) and was still a reasonable threat that cannot be ignored for more than a couple of seconds.
Kamikaze DS: this is a strange one, but mostly because it does actually require skill to fly. I've used KDSs to kill pilot-stacking ADSs before Delta (because I abhor that abuse - SP rendering actual skill irrelevant) and I can fairly reliably kill an enemy ADS. You say that the ADS must not see you? Wrong - if the ADS sees you it has two options: consider you a threat and evade/attempt to shoot you down (essentially what every ADS pilot tries to assess); or ignore you (usually if you are considered a transport 'ship) and attempt to actually contribute to the ground battle in some way.
Assuming a vaguely competent KDS pilot (ie, someone who has at least a little experience against ADSs and actually knows how to fly) then the ADS must be constantly on watch for the KDS leaving the redline (almost certainly at the flight ceiling) while simultaneously keeping tabs on all ground threats (which extends for a 300m radius: FGs and large Rails being the prime culprits) and also actually attacking targets - all of which eats up concentration. An ADS thats drops it's awareness for ten seconds is likely to get rammed.
Point being that even the most basic of AV is not as awful as made out. A MLT Swarm with a half-awake mind behind it is more threatening than a PRO Swarm derping about in the open and waving to the pilot before opening fire. Then, the PRO Swarmer dedicated to doing the most damage possible (statistically and tactically) to vehicles is more than a handful: given the Delta ROF nerf, they are almost untouchable*.
(*Considering that typical ADS -> Swarm engagement range is between 50m-80m, which Swarms traverse in roughly 3-4s (unless someone can give me some solid numbers for speed and acceleration post-Delta?))
Bahirae Serugiusu wrote:I've seen more ADS pilots on the forums whining about AV then anything else lately.
And I've seen more trying to suggest reasonable changes and getting s*** on by AV players who want easy points.
Main of Kallas Hallytyr. ADS, Logistics, Scout, Commando and Assault.
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Halla Murr
Skullbreakers
43
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Posted - 2014.10.14 04:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Which brings me to my next point...
Atiim wrote:The TTK of a Maxed Swarmer vs an ADS (assuming best fits) is:
- Python: 12.02s
- Incubus: 6.01s
*Assumes 0m away from Target
Notice that with a base speed of 50m/s, you can still escape the Swarmer's lock range in 3.5s, which is shorter than the TTK of any of the Dropships listed. The Incubus may be much more susceptible to Swarms than the Python, but I don't see how this is a problem considering how Swarm Launchers are Explosives (-20/+20). That would be like a Shield Tanker trying to take on a SCR head-on as opposed to attacking it by surprise and wondering why you keep dying.
First of all, those TTK's: interesting that the Python is more than twice as survivable, in terms of length of time. However, I must ask/point out: does that include the initial lock-on time? The first lock-on should (about 95% of the time) be ignored as, sort of like a Shotgun Cloaked Scout, the Swarmer is almost certain to launch unmolested. Consider then that the second volley is likely to have been locked during the flight time of the first, and you can knock 2.1s off the front of those numbers.
Secondly: the Python is so much more survivable due to the damage profiles and the way proficiency applies: an anti-armour weapon is inherently bad against a shield-tanked defender. As your analogy about the ScR/Shield Suit goes, why are Swarm users (more notably than Forge users) so intent on being so much more effective against all types of vehicles and not lobbying for the correct content to be added? Quite simply, Swarms are perfectly legitimate where they are: what they are not is the anti-shield weapon that needs to be introduced (ie, Gallente Heavy and Amarr Heavy/Light AV, as well as the Minmatar Heavy/Light AV.)
Swarms are plenty capable of destroying an Incubus if sufficiently skilled. By my maths, the ideal (ie, most dedicated) Swarm (Prof 5, MinCom 5, not including Damage Mods though) is doing 3880.8 armour damage with roughly 5-8 seconds of repping available.
Wiyrkomi/MinCom suit:
Base 1372.8/volley
vs Shield 1098.24
vs Armour 1647.36
w/ Prof 5 1884.464
1st Volley (1s travel, assumed from first-mover advantage, and not unreason): breaks shields; 91.834 armour damage
2nd Volley (2s travel time, +0.5s lock-on**): 1986.298 armour damage
3rd Volley: (4-5s travel time, +0.5s lock-on**): 3880.762 armour damage
3880.762 armour damage over roughly 5-8s. An Incubus must have 3881 armour, including 8 seconds worth of repair to survive the first three volleys. Assuming a 5s reload/re-lock window, that would give an ADS a roughly 13s long repair window.
(**Most of the lock-on time is considered during travel time of the previous volley.)
A sample fit for you:
ADV turret of choice (likely Missile, considering the current state of the game)
STD Afterburner
PRO 120mm Plate
PRO Light Armour Repairer
PRO PG Extension
= 4247 armour; 75 hp/s; 93.75 hp/s with max skill
= 5465.75 armour over the 13s repair window.
(= 5222 with no repair skill)
Assuming an additional 2s travel window, that's 5653.25.
The fourth volley produces a total of 5775.226 armour damage, enough to destroy the dropship. Considering that the above dropship fit costs 297,019 ISK. The following Commando fit costs 42,882 ISK (plus an additional low slot of choice) and outputs the above damage progression:
STD Minmatar Commando
PRO Swarm Launcher
STD Combat Rifle
1x PRO Damage Mod
X-3 Nanohive
1x Low slot module of choice
Honestly, that cost is fine, and so is the damage. What's not fine, is Swarms being considered 'too weak' versus Pythons. Let's consider the following fit versus the above Swarmer:
Python
ADV Turret
PRO Heavy Shield Extender
ADV Light Shield Booster
ADV Afterburner
PRO PG Extension
295,624 ISK
= 2873 Shields
= 4 second delay; 12 second depleted delay (8 second depleted delay with max skill)
= 960 Armour
1st: 1098.24
2nd: 2196.48
Shield Booster: 900 shields plus 2-3s of recharge (+/-1127): 1069.48
3rd: 2167.96
Again, is this unreasonable? This is exactly like the ScR/Shield analogy but backwards: Armour/ScR. What about the next volleys?
With the same 7s window (5s reload/re-lock; 2s travel) the Python recharges 1568 shields:
4th: 1698.2
5th: 2796.44 (76.56 remaining)
6th: 1762.398 armour damage.
Total TTK is between 20 and 30 seconds, depending on the travel times and user error/skill. TTK of the Swarmer is...hard to determine: unlike the Swarm, the Missile Turret requires the vehicle itself to align in specific ways whilst the impact of the Swarms themselves change that in unpredictable ways; mathematically, a MinCom will survive two splash damage hits from an ADV missile turret, dying to the third unless a direct hit is involved, which is around 3.6s. Not to mention the acquisition of the target and the positioning of the fight.
Enough rambling from me...I'll end with this:
Swarms are sufficiently powerful against an Incubus.
Swarms are sufficiently threatening against a Python, while being suboptimal once damage profiles are considered.
Main of Kallas Hallytyr. ADS, Logistics, Scout, Commando and Assault.
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