DUST Search - Being on the receiving end of a sniper's scope is not pleasant a...

Atiim wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

There is no strawman about it, there is absolutely no way to find a sniper in our big ass maps except for pointing your crosshair over obvious spots and hoping that the visual scan picks them up.

False, any Dropship can easily traverse battlefields and find a Sniper if they have a keen eye. The only problems are the ones that don't stay in one spot, in which case all you'll need is a Caldari Scout to light them up.

Cat Merc wrote:

They're too far for any scans, they don't tend to render, their vapor trail doesn't render, the sound design in this game doesn't allow you to pick up their shot direction, there are no effects to properly show where the bullet hit, there is absolutely nothing.

I've seen the vapor trail render, but only when the Sniper is within rendering distance (It should go without saying, but this does need to be addressed. I'd even say make how long the vapor trail stays visible depend on the variant).

Hit markers already display which direction you were hit in, and I fail to see the problem with a Sniper being outside the range of Active Scanners. If you're actively searching for a Sniper, your ACS will eventually fall within it's range.

Cat Merc wrote:

Snipers are 100% stealthy killers and there is absolutely nothing you can do about a sniper that isn't sitting in an obvious spot.

"Obvious Spot" is subjective.

From the POV of a Sniper such as myself, all of the spots that people snipe in are obvious because they know where they are; while from the POV from someone with (presumably) minimal knowledge of Sniper hotspots, nearly all spots aren't obvious.

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Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH 517	Posted - 2014.09.24 14:51:00 - [1] - Quote Which in of itself isn't so much a problem; props to the people who drilled holes into my Amarr assult's head whilst I was on the move in open terrain. Won't be making that mistake again. My only concern is that Thale spam seems to have gone through the roof since patch deployment, and I'm not seeing snipers move into urban areas with those TAC SR; in fact, I'm not seeing snipers full stop. I'm dead before I can figure out where the shot came from, and heading out to hunt them down results in moving I to the scope of another sniper covering a different section of the battlefield. Any one else got anectdes to add? Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12403	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:00:00 - [2] - Quote Silly person, you expect to be able to retaliate? LOL Snipers must be impossible to find without another sniper while they kill your team, otherwise they're useless! And that's perfect game design that has absolutely no flaws what so ever. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
John ShepardIII Murphys-Law 537	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:00:00 - [3] - Quote Kierkegaard Soren wrote: Which in of itself isn't so much a problem; props to the people who drilled holes into my Amarr assult's head whilst I was on the move in open terrain. Won't be making that mistake again. My only concern is that Thale spam seems to have gone through the roof since patch deployment, and I'm not seeing snipers move into urban areas with those TAC SR; in fact, I'm not seeing snipers full stop. I'm dead before I can figure out where the shot came from, and heading out to hunt them down results in moving I to the scope of another sniper covering a different section of the battlefield. Any one else got anectdes to add? Use a Lav to roam around The True Shepard.
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 268	Posted - 2014.09.24 15:22:00 - [4] - Quote max range is 400 - 450 now if that helps any.
Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH 517	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:09:00 - [5] - Quote Dealing Thale red-line snipers as I type. Deeply frustrating. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 17814	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:16:00 - [6] - Quote John ShepardIII wrote: Use a Lav to roam around I'm sure that'll help a great deal against snipers who are deep in the redline, especially when you can't get the slightest idea of their position because: A) They do not render. B) Their vapour trails (which are intended to help find snipers) do not render. C) The most information you are likely to get is the range at which they're sitting at, when you die. The forums have ruined me.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 17815	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:22:00 - [7] - Quote Kierkegaard Soren wrote: My only concern is that Thale spam seems to have gone through the roof since patch deployment Of course. It's a very powerful weapon that gives you massive rewards... At very little risk. I do not think I could lose all of my Thale's if I sniped from now until the servers shut down and never received any more from salvage. Quote: and I'm not seeing snipers move into urban areas with those TAC SR; in fact, I'm not seeing snipers full stop. I'm dead before I can figure out where the shot came from, and heading out to hunt them down results in moving I to the scope of another sniper covering a different section of the battlefield. Again, this is only natural. When one is given a choice between sitting far, far away and getting instakills from there in near-complete safety, or going in close and risking their death for a similar reward, what's the obvious choice? Every Skirmish map, without exception, has a large amount of open space for snipers to hunt in at their leisure. Some Domination matches are so terribly designed that one can get direct line of sight on the console from multiple long range positions. Even if you can't get direct LoS on the console itself, on every map apart from the research facility one can achieve a great deal with a single solitary sniper. In Ambush, one rarely finds snipers because the vast majority of them would much prefer a map with nice, safe redlines. The forums have ruined me.
Outie 500 Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 12	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:30:00 - [8] - Quote Wait, I thought snipers were broken?
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1746	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:37:00 - [9] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Silly person, you expect to be able to retaliate? LOL Snipers must be impossible to find without another sniper while they kill your team, otherwise they're useless! And that's perfect game design that has absolutely no flaws what so ever. My only problem is the redline. I have no problems with them killing me (hell if they hit me they all kill me I have like 200-300 hp) I have no problems with trying to find them or work out where they are, listening out for shots or what ever. But when they can be buried in the redline in a place I cannot even get to in a speed scout..... yea I have issues with that. I will say though that I have not noticed an influx of snipers today or anything yet so I am not complaining. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12408	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:45:00 - [10] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Silly person, you expect to be able to retaliate? LOL Snipers must be impossible to find without another sniper while they kill your team, otherwise they're useless! And that's perfect game design that has absolutely no flaws what so ever. My only problem is the redline. I have no problems with them killing me (hell if they hit me they all kill me I have like 200-300 hp) I have no problems with trying to find them or work out where they are, listening out for shots or what ever. But when they can be buried in the redline in a place I cannot even get to in a speed scout..... yea I have issues with that. I will say though that I have not noticed an influx of snipers today or anything yet so I am not complaining. I have yet to play myself so I can't give any proper opinion of the situation. However I will say that there isn't enough indication of where you are shot from with snipers as they are. In BF4 not only is there a (visible) vapor trail, but you can see the bullet coming, the dirt being kicked up and if you are hit in the body, your character flinches in the opposite direction of where you were hit from. So you have lots and lots of indication of the direction. Then there is the scope glint telling you the exact location of said sniper if they haven't moved. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC

Atiim 12477	Posted - 2014.09.24 16:50:00 - [11] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Silly person, you expect to be able to retaliate? LOL Snipers must be impossible to find without another sniper while they kill your team, otherwise they're useless! And that's perfect game design that has absolutely no flaws what so ever. Surely someone as educated as you can do without resorting to strawmans. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
CELESTA AUNGM Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 277	Posted - 2014.09.24 17:08:00 - [12] - Quote Kierkegaard Soren wrote: Which in of itself isn't so much a problem; props to the people who drilled holes into my Amarr assult's head whilst I was on the move in open terrain. Won't be making that mistake again. My only concern is that Thale spam seems to have gone through the roof since patch deployment, and I'm not seeing snipers move into urban areas with those TAC SR; in fact, I'm not seeing snipers full stop. I'm dead before I can figure out where the shot came from, and heading out to hunt them down results in moving I to the scope of another sniper covering a different section of the battlefield. Any one else got anectdes to add? In spite of the pain Kierkegard, your report is excellent news. When I first started the game (around March 2013) this was the terror (fun terror, because it's just a game), and the primary lesson of traversing the game maps. I would NOT agree that these maps are badly arranged---the open areas and data panels that are obvious killing gardens for certain kinds of players, are perfect ways to train us not to run around the battlefield the way we do in other FPS titles. "Situational Awareness" really meant something more than just a cool soldier term in this game. The sniper-terror also is what encouraged some of us players to scheme methods of de-lousing the edges of the maps (aka, sniper-hunting). Before Patch 1.4, sniper-hunting was the alternative pre-occupation in the matches (not Redlining, which seems to be the main hobby nowadays). John ShepardIII is right, and sniper-hunting does require a vehicle (I still have in my garage a Dropship that fitted solely for hilltop-delousing in the matches)---going Sniper-v-Sniper is an extremely tough challenge, but one I'd like to see return to the game too. Maybe with Hotfix Delta, now it will. But Arkena brings up the point I am worried about: Vapor Trails. This and the "tick" sound from a near miss, were the defensive cue to you that a sniper was tracking you---I remember relying on them early in my Dust career---BUT I DON'T RECALL SEEING VAPOR TRAILS ANYMORE AT ALL. If they are not rendering, we do need to bring this up with CCP. It's either an unfair glitch, or an unfair tweak that was made to the gameplay. A victim should always be entitled to some tiny warning that she's about to be slain, or else she's deprived of the chance to try to overcome the obstacle (which is the satisfaction we're trying to get from playing a game, right?) Universe of good wishes for the 49, especially CCP Eterne... No story can have life without writers and publishers.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12410	Posted - 2014.09.24 17:29:00 - [13] - Quote Atiim wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Silly person, you expect to be able to retaliate? LOL Snipers must be impossible to find without another sniper while they kill your team, otherwise they're useless! And that's perfect game design that has absolutely no flaws what so ever. Surely someone as educated as you can do without resorting to strawmans. There is no strawman about it, there is absolutely no way to find a sniper in our big ass maps except for pointing your crosshair over obvious spots and hoping that the visual scan picks them up. They're too far for any scans, they don't tend to render, their vapor trail doesn't render, the sound design in this game doesn't allow you to pick up their shot direction, there are no effects to properly show where the bullet hit, there is absolutely nothing. Snipers are 100% stealthy killers and there is absolutely nothing you can do about a sniper that isn't sitting in an obvious spot. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3128	Posted - 2014.09.24 17:33:00 - [14] - Quote Atiim wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Silly person, you expect to be able to retaliate? LOL Snipers must be impossible to find without another sniper while they kill your team, otherwise they're useless! And that's perfect game design that has absolutely no flaws what so ever. Surely someone as educated as you can do without resorting to strawmans. surely you can recognize sarcasm.
Awesome Pantaloons Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 593	Posted - 2014.09.24 18:16:00 - [15] - Quote Thale's are the only actually decent SnR out there. The zoom makes it actually feel like a futuristic weapon. It's as if sniper rifles were made for long-distance combat... "Awesome Pants don't care. Awesome Pants don't give a s**t."
Atiim 12479	Posted - 2014.09.24 18:30:00 - [16] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: There is no strawman about it, there is absolutely no way to find a sniper in our big ass maps except for pointing your crosshair over obvious spots and hoping that the visual scan picks them up. False, any Dropship can easily traverse battlefields and find a Sniper if they have a keen eye. The only problems are the ones that don't stay in one spot, in which case all you'll need is a Caldari Scout to light them up. Cat Merc wrote: They're too far for any scans, they don't tend to render, their vapor trail doesn't render, the sound design in this game doesn't allow you to pick up their shot direction, there are no effects to properly show where the bullet hit, there is absolutely nothing. I've seen the vapor trail render, but only when the Sniper is within rendering distance (It should go without saying, but this does need to be addressed. I'd even say make how long the vapor trail stays visible depend on the variant). Hit markers already display which direction you were hit in, and I fail to see the problem with a Sniper being outside the range of Active Scanners. If you're actively searching for a Sniper, your ACS will eventually fall within it's range. Cat Merc wrote: Snipers are 100% stealthy killers and there is absolutely nothing you can do about a sniper that isn't sitting in an obvious spot. "Obvious Spot" is subjective. From the POV of a Sniper such as myself, all of the spots that people snipe in are obvious because they know where they are; while from the POV from someone with (presumably) minimal knowledge of Sniper hotspots, nearly all spots aren't obvious. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Atiim 12479	Posted - 2014.09.24 18:33:00 - [17] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: surely you can recognize sarcasm. It could be viewed as sarcasm if it weren't for the fact that Cat Merc actually believes this to be the mindset of Snipers. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 12413	Posted - 2014.09.24 20:49:00 - [18] - Quote Atiim wrote: Cat Merc wrote: There is no strawman about it, there is absolutely no way to find a sniper in our big ass maps except for pointing your crosshair over obvious spots and hoping that the visual scan picks them up. False, any Dropship can easily traverse battlefields and find a Sniper if they have a keen eye. The only problems are the ones that don't stay in one spot, in which case all you'll need is a Caldari Scout to light them up. Cat Merc wrote: They're too far for any scans, they don't tend to render, their vapor trail doesn't render, the sound design in this game doesn't allow you to pick up their shot direction, there are no effects to properly show where the bullet hit, there is absolutely nothing. I've seen the vapor trail render, but only when the Sniper is within rendering distance (It should go without saying, but this does need to be addressed. I'd even say make how long the vapor trail stays visible depend on the variant). Hit markers already display which direction you were hit in, and I fail to see the problem with a Sniper being outside the range of Active Scanners. If you're actively searching for a Sniper, your ACS will eventually fall within it's range. Cat Merc wrote: Snipers are 100% stealthy killers and there is absolutely nothing you can do about a sniper that isn't sitting in an obvious spot. "Obvious Spot" is subjective. From the POV of a Sniper such as myself, all of the spots that people snipe in are obvious because they know where they are; while from the POV from someone with (presumably) minimal knowledge of Sniper hotspots, nearly all spots aren't obvious. Dropships + Keen Eye = Nope The rendering is even worse from dropships, try again. Caldari scout lighting them up? You do understand that their range is lower than the scanners I'm talking about, right? Hit markers don't help if you get insta gibbed by a charged sniper. Again, not nearly enough ways to figure out the location of a sniper. There is less information than in Battlefield 4, and yet with the buff snipers are now arguably more powerful than in BF4. As for "obvious spot", when I'm sniping I think "Hmm, this is such a good sniper spot, I'm sure people will look for me here" whenever I am trying to pick a spot. Usually I am never counter sniped when I do so. I tend to only get counter sniped when I decided to go "lol" and tower snipe. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Roy Ventus Axis of Chaos 1844	Posted - 2014.09.24 20:51:00 - [19] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Silly person, you expect to be able to retaliate? LOL Snipers must be impossible to find without another sniper while they kill your team, otherwise they're useless! And that's perfect game design that has absolutely no flaws what so ever. <3 I've missed u Cat Merc "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." http://royventus.tumblr.com
gauntlet44 LbowDeep Heaven84 Devils General Tso's Alliance 129	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:30:00 - [20] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Atiim wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Silly person, you expect to be able to retaliate? LOL Snipers must be impossible to find without another sniper while they kill your team, otherwise they're useless! And that's perfect game design that has absolutely no flaws what so ever. Surely someone as educated as you can do without resorting to strawmans. There is no strawman about it, there is absolutely no way to find a sniper in our big ass maps except for pointing your crosshair over obvious spots and hoping that the visual scan picks them up. They're too far for any scans, they don't tend to render, their vapor trail doesn't render, the sound design in this game doesn't allow you to pick up their shot direction, there are no effects to properly show where the bullet hit, there is absolutely nothing. Snipers are 100% stealthy killers and there is absolutely nothing you can do about a sniper that isn't sitting in an obvious spot. must have a complex precision mod and complex range extender to go with your sr, then you dont have to ads to find them. the snipers turn red even behind cover does no one read fox's tutorials? also play as strangeland stranger, larlac theest, gauntlett5487, and balacs sixkin

Thokk Nightshade KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 557	Posted - 2014.09.24 21:46:00 - [21] - Quote I haven't actually played since Delta dropped, but have been looking forward to Sniper Rifles getting their due. For the first time in a LONG time, a Sniper is actually going to be viable. For the longest time, if a Sniper saw a heavy, they may has well have just kept on looking because s/he could put 3 or 4 shots into it and not bring him down. I'm seriously hoping we don't have a bunch of SR spam out there now but if we do, that will be fun for people who have been sniping for a while. Counter-sniping has always been a blast and all the noobs are going to probably profile themselves on the top of a ridge or hill just screaming to people "please shoot me!" As for the redline, **** it, get rid of it for all I care. Or set it up so any shots going out from the redline are negated or only do 10% damage. Make people get out of the redline to contribute. If they sit back there, get no WP and their reward goes out the window. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
zzZaXxx Vengeance Unbound 577	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:25:00 - [22] - Quote I know what to do with my scout now. Hunting snipers. Hopefully other scouts will have the same idea.
Henrietta Unknown CREATURES OF THE NIGHT 312	Posted - 2014.09.24 22:47:00 - [23] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: I know what to do with my scout now. Hunting snipers. Hopefully other scouts will have the same idea. What I don't like about CQC sniping with a Tac SnR. I was stalked and instagibbed by all 4 kinds of scouts across 3 matches as I attempted to snipe within 100 meters in a Calmando with Tac SnR and basic RR. No time to even switch the rifle. I guess now I have to either snipe out at 300-400 meters or run in a Cal Scout so I can pick y'all up on passives. It'll be your own undoing. Henrietta Reborn
CELESTA AUNGM Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 280	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:01:00 - [24] - Quote Hey, nice debate going on here. I like the arguments posted on BOTH sides, so far. To play as a "specialized" role in a shooter game SHOULD give you acute advantages that no other player's role has: -- My Dropship gives me exclusive access to places on the maps NO other player can reach, -- A Fatty natively can build a turtle shell that's thicker than ANY other player ought to be able to attain, -- A Sniper should have a lonely, Highest-reach-at-Lowest-risk advantage that NO other player ought to be granted, But in all these cases and others, there ought to be a little something that makes them "imperfect" in their act of killing a victim. There ought to be something small that at least TIPS OFF the victim that "Oh crap...I'm as good as dead". With a Dropship, at LEAST the noisy engine tells you to look around. With a Fatty, at least he's plump and can be seen coming. Right now, we're having this same arguemtn about the "cloak-shotgunny". NEVER take the Sniper's concealment skills away, but IF he happens to fire once and miss, at LEAST throw me that little bone as a tip-off to duck or attempt to complicate his next shots. The Vapor-trail and "PING" sound are enough of a bone. We don't need to know WHERE it came from (that would be hurting his concealment ability). We just ought to be alerted THAT he's onto us, thanks to that near-miss. I say this NOT in the interest of some kind of balance, and NOT because of any association with what the "Real Sniper World here on Earth" is like... It's simply necessary for a more fun game-experience. In a game about getting killed, if I step on a collapsible bridge or in the path of an oncoming tank or into 3-kick combo strike, and I fail to hit the impossible 'tap X + Square' buttons in time... okay, I'm dead--I get it. I curse and yell, but I accept it. The X+Square move is meant to give me only a tiny miracle chance to escape, I blew my chance and it KILLED me. But if the game tells me something like "you've being respawned due to a sniper kill", and I wasn't given even a hint of the six near-misses he's been whizzing near me over the past 45 seconds (!!!), it feels like the game just ROBBED me or cheap-cheated me , not cleverly took my life at the hands of a stealthy opponent. It's not a balance thing, just a player-fun-experience thing. Remember those trap doors in the old games that were designed so you MUST automatically fall into to eliminate the 'reseve life's you'll need to complete this level, and ensure every player repeats the level 11 times unless you make sure you finish the previous level with more than 11 reserve lives... 11 trap doors = 11 stolen reserve lifes? You stop and say, "Wait now, Come ON----that's just horse crap cheating--not even a LITTLE chance to survive this level without having replay the last level all over again? That's crap, Dude!" For the sake of game fun, a LITTLE miracle-chance to escape is always considered more "playable" than NO chance at all. Universe of good wishes for the 49, especially CCP Eterne... No story can have life without writers and publishers.
Onesimus Tarsus is-a-Corporation 2665	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:03:00 - [25] - Quote I didn't know the scope killed. Melee? The sig is back! K/D(r) matchmaking would even fix the matchmaking fix.
Everything Dies HENTAI FAN CLUB 983	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:41:00 - [26] - Quote I knew this would happen: By reducing the range of SRs, you've only made the redlining problem worse. Why? In my case, if I'm sniping in the redline it means that I have direct LoS to either a command node or a rooftop that is being encamped by the opponent. Now, with the range reduction, I don't need to come any closer than I did previously to watch over my usual target areas. HOWEVER, I no longer need to worry quite as much about enemy snipers trying to take me out due to the fact that they'll have to make themselves even more vulnerable by wading into the battlefield to stop me. Easy solutions: 1. Implement a tagging feature for all sniper rifles, and increase their viewable range (NOT firing distance) back up to 600m, if not more. This would allow snipers/countersnipers to highlight enemy snipers and have them display either on the tacnet for the entire team or just the squad. 2. Have a kill camera that shows a sniper's location whenever he kills you. Mike Patton is the greatest singer in music. Proof: Listen
Lonewolf Heavy Chaotic Company 129	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:53:00 - [27] - Quote Im going to quickly mention that I sit about 100-200m away in obvious spots and it takes people all match to realize Im sitting right under their nose. Sometimes I'll even be sitting next to the objectives protecting it and they won't notice me until they get in the point and iI start punching them in the face with my commando. Most players lack the situational awareness you get from playing as weaker suits in the past, such as commandos when first released or scouts. The farthest ill get kills is at 450m and thats only to kill other snipers. Blueberries are delicious and an essential part of my diet ;) Commando/Heavy Willing to PC for anyone for a low price
Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH 521	Posted - 2014.09.25 19:17:00 - [28] - Quote So having read all of the replies. (Thanks everyone) and, crucially, having played a ton of games since (CCP thank you for the PLC, myhard heavy counter), my conclusion is that delta has transformed Dust into a game where stopping=death. Between slayer scouts stalking urban environs and snipers covering open ground, everyone has to think about how they traverse the maps, and pausing to assess is an open gamble with your life. I think this is a definite positive thing and the game feels fresh again. Roll on Epsilon. Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Omega Black Zero Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 120	Posted - 2014.09.25 19:31:00 - [29] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Atiim wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Silly person, you expect to be able to retaliate? LOL Snipers must be impossible to find without another sniper while they kill your team, otherwise they're useless! And that's perfect game design that has absolutely no flaws what so ever. Surely someone as educated as you can do without resorting to strawmans. There is no strawman about it, there is absolutely no way to find a sniper in our big ass maps except for pointing your crosshair over obvious spots and hoping that the visual scan picks them up. They're too far for any scans, they don't tend to render, their vapor trail doesn't render, the sound design in this game doesn't allow you to pick up their shot direction, there are no effects to properly show where the bullet hit, there is absolutely nothing. Snipers are 100% stealthy killers and there is absolutely nothing you can do about a sniper that isn't sitting in an obvious spot. Funny, I tracked a sniper because of his vapor trail yesterday. Pretty sure vapor trail rendering isn't gone, might be a glitch or you just missed it.


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