The AR should have a greater DPS than the RR because it has a much shorter range than the other rifles. Other weapons have similar DPS levels while having a much, much greater range.

I'm not really sure where you're coming from here. The Gal and Calassaults have useless bonuses. I'm proposing ones which are actually useful. It's not a discussion of ARs vs RRs.

With a 2% RoF bonus per level, a bonused Galassault with a Duvolle would not outDPS any other suit using a Balac's.
Although I'm a little curious - why should that be such a problem?

There are already several incidences of damage bonuses in the game as well as other bonuses which greatly enhance damage application. The Amarr assault bonus in particular is so fantastically powerful for its weapons and it has a colossal effect on how they play. In most semi-auto operation with the SCR, you can forget about the overheat almost entirely because of the bonus.

Calling it a 'better Balac with ISK' is sensationalist and exaggerated. An AR bonused in such a way would still have lower RoF than the Balac, still have a lower damage per bullet than the Balac, still have a lower clip size than the Balac, and have a significantly lower DPS.
It's worse than the Balac.

Okay, and what if the scrambler were nerfed? It would still be a powerful bonus whether or not the scrambler was a good weapon.

The Minmatar bonus is also very powerful. The only shortcoming of the CR is its short clip size and that's immediately overcome by that bonus. It's a great advantage.

The Calassault and Galassault should have their bonuses brought up to that level, rather than nerf the quite unique effects that you have on the Amarr/Min assaults.

If you make the gallente assault bonus something like RoF or even optimal range, it makes it so that the only 'viable' option for using the weapon becomes the assault - which should *never* be the case, those are things that should be addressed on the gun themselves. Assault bonuses should always be about *performance*, and while you can argue for days about min + amarr assault bonuses neither of them actually alter the DPS of a weapon all they do is allow you to shoot for longer.

If you were to add a kick reduction to the caldari, you still have a weapon with the same DPS, but improved performance.
If you keep the current bonuses on the gallente, you have a weapon with the same dps, but improved performance.

If the AR itself needs to be tweaked to bring it slightly more in line with other guns that's just fine, If SCR/RR/CR's need to be nerfed, that is also fine, but let's not shoehorn any one suit into outright being the best with them for any reason other than 'performance' or 'handling'.

Should we remove the commando bonuses? All of them increase DPS. Does that mean they're the only viable option for using that weapon?

No, it doesn't.
There is no problem with the equivalent of 10% more damage.

And if there's a problem with the bonus making weapons much more useful on the suit, perhaps we should remove the Amarr bonus? The bonus is so powerful that almost any serious SCR user goes to that suit.

And yet they remain massively strong performance enhancers.
If you're so dead set against DPS because somehow on the Galassault, unlike all other damage bonuses, it would make it 'the only viable option', optimal range doesn't increase DPS. It increases performance.

Except the current bonuses on the Gallente are so pathetic that it doesn't enhance performance. When has kick ever been a serious concern with the AR or shotgun? The hipfire difference is unnoticeable.

Meanwhile, the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses are immediately noticeable as incredibly strong 'performance enhancers'.

Useless the Gal bonus ? The AR hasn't a lot of kick, so kick reduction => any kick. The AR doesn't move when you're shooting. I've tested that, and it's amazing, you can kill people at 60m without problem...


As I've said, that's Commando. Commando = DPS. ALL commando = DPS. You, you want to do that : Minma, Amarr and Calda = more performance and Gal = DPS ? ...

[quote=Arkena Wyrnspire]
Why would this one specific instance of a bonus break everything?

Perhaps we should remove the Minmatar bonus then. Adding more clip size for them, but not others?

The entire point of a bonus is to add something over other options...

See, this is where we disagree.

How does this make it 'obligatory' to use the Galassault?

It's not sure to win, though...?
There are already several examples of 10% damage bonuses in the game and damage mods, but they don't make the player 'sure to win'.

All of those bonuses give you an advantage. The Amarr one allows you to shoot much more freely without worrying about overheat and use a charge shot volley that's extended enough to kill more targets. The Minmatar one allows you to shoot more freely and because the CR's only weakness is a short clip, it often lets you get kills you otherwise wouldn't get with it.

The Calassault bonus is in the same boat as the Galassault one - it's pretty much worthless.


10% damage bonuses already exist - but they don't make the suits they're on instantly win.

Yes, that is true but it is far from a realistic example. When, in a game, would two players ever stand totally still, aim at eachother, start firing at the same time, and only stop when one is dead? Using this as the basis for your argument really doesn't create a compelling case. Additionally if any suit did this vs a commando with their preferred weapon the commando would already win.

There are already other suits that incentivize using one type of weapon over others. If you have such an issue with this concept shouldn't you be arguing for the removal of the entire commando class as well as the Amarr assault bonus? Honestly, a 10% buff to RoF (2% per level) would be about as effective as the Amarr assault's bonus and isn't that the gold standard we should be aiming for? Even when all the other assault suits were widely regarded as awful (until charlie dropped) the Amarr assault was usable for PC, the area of the game where only the most competitive gear gets brought out.

Nerf your fit a bit to accept adv hives. It's what I did and works fine. The Cal need a bonus like the Amarr and Min that affects overall weapon performance. Kick reduction would be the best imho

I would honestly prefer to see the range bonus, but I had thought the RoF bonus a popular idea so I included that.
Before this thread was created I hadn't seen much talk about range bonuses, but I'd seen a fair few posts about a RoF bonus.

I feel that a range bonus is in line with the other bonuses because it compensates for the main weakness of the weapon - just like the Amarr bonus compensates for overheat and the Minmatar bonus compensates for short clips. The Caldari bonus also kind of compensates for the slow reload of rail weaponry but it's just a lackluster bonus. Recoil probably suits the Caldari better because their weaponry actually does suffer from recoil.

So essentially:

Amarr bonus - compensates for overheat, the weakness of laser weaponry
Minmatar bonus - compensates for short clips, the weakness of projectile weaponry
Gallente bonus (if changed to range) - compensates for short range, the weakness of plasma weaponry
Caldari bonus (if changed to recoil) - compensates for high recoil, the weakness of rail weaponry.

Sound reasonable?

That is what I recommended as well, but I think Arkena has a good point in that 5% maybe not be enough to matter. Considering how useful laser heat buildup and clip capacity can be for Amarr and Minmatar, those values may need to be bumped to 7-8% before they can be considered an equivalent contribution as the Am and Min bonuses. However, whatever we come up with is largely irrelevant and is more up Rattati/Logibro to determine which numbers will great enough of an impact to make those values an actual contribution to the assault playstyle.

Just throwing your hat in the ring for kick redux and range bonus is what really matters imo.

I think he was referring to the recoil bonus.
5% is fine for the range, IMO.

Amarr: bonus is golden
Minmater: extend clip size bonus to explosive weapons
Caldari: add a kick reduction bonus for rail weapons
Gallente: change the kick reduction bonus to a range bonus (which, for the plasma cannon, translates as a velocity bonus, allowing it to shoot farther, faster)

That is all.