Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1109
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Posted - 2014.07.30 18:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Posted this elsewhere in a GD thread, figured I would throw it out here on it's own. Main gist is a talk through of skill stacking and how it affects all vehicles in question, be that good and bad. And mention of what I would like to see, a gunner class. One skilled into gunning.
The problem - ADS stacking
What is ADS stacking? Well see, there is this skill:
Caldari Assault dropship /Gallente Assault Dropship - 10% per level to either Missile or Rail/Blaster rate of fire per level as well as a 5% increase to maximum ammo capacity.
This skill stacks with other pilots in the dropship. So at max level 5, gunner skills stack with pilot skill, making for incredibly fast rates of fire above and beyond what is normal.
The skill tree
The dropship is the only vehicle type that gains bonuses in this way. If you would look at the skill tree, skilling into HAV's or LAV's only requires one point into HAV or LAV's;
As one point is sufficient to unlock both types of vehicles
There is no bonus attached.
So points wasted going any further than level one as there are no conceivable bonus to having multiple levels. On the other hand, the ADS has 2 skills that provide additional bonuses per level.
Assault dropships - 2% per level to small turret damage.
Caldari / Assault dropships - 10% to ROF and 5% ammo cap per level.
Unlike a HAV or LAV, these 2 additional skills work with small turrets for a gunner. Otherwise, the only bonuses you could gain are Ammo reload speed, Ammo capacity, and proficiency (increases turret rotation speed), if someone decides to be a proficient gunner.
Pros and Cons
I have seen a lot of people for keeping this mechanic in the game, and many against. It's quite clear to me why some would want to keep it and some would like to see it go.
Those FOR - It makes the idea of someone dedicating themselves to the purpose of gunning, meaningful. Meaning you get clear and direct results from your SP investment, separating yourself from the "average" gunner. And I TOTALLY agree with this sentiment.
Those AGAINST - When used with the ADS, it provides an OVERWHELMING advantage to the pilot and gunners, above and beyond what should be allowed. This makes them do things like, insta pop tanks or simply annihilate infantry on the ground with a flurry of missile fire. And agree that it is a broken mechanic.
BUT, does anybody stop to consider the other types, HAV and LAV, that could take advantage of this, without it becoming overwhelming or OP. In an HAV or LAV, the only skills that could stack are reload speed, ammo cap, and proficiency.
So by removing this mechanic, the bonuses for skilling into the idea of being a gunner aren't very meaningful. More so in the case of Tanks and LAV's.
While I do agree this is a broken mechanic, it's only broken because TWO skills, that provide VERY large bonuses to small turrets in a SINGLE vehicle type. So it's not so much the mechanic itself that is the culprit, but the lack of foresight when creating skills for the ADS.
Idea proposal
One of the prominent ideas with all of these recent tank changes, was to shift the focus of the large turrets (large blasters in particular) from being AI focused to AV focused. Than the thought process was that gunners were to fill that void. That is, gunners were supposed to fill in for the lack of an AI role. Want to kill infantry, then fit small guns to your tank.
Something that wasn't foreseen, is how utterly useless tanks become when they can no longer terrorize infantry alone. Not to forget the changes to AV effectiveness, either directly or indirectly, that have made tanks easy to drive away or outright kill. So basically, tanks have a very limited impact on the field as a result.
As a user of small turrets on my own tanks, I can say with a good gunner this does hold very true. A single gunner can consistently rack up 20 kills a match without a problem. And while with a gunner you can be very effective, it's also very easy to counter with AV. Most of my time isn't spent simply chugging away at the infantry, but running from AV.
Throw in a couple of forge gunners and my 2 to 3 man killing machine gets completely denied. TOTALLY fair in my book.
But the issue with gunners, their power potential shouldn't be totally dependent on me. Meaning currently, the best way to increase their effectiveness is to equip bigger and more expensive (cost and CPU/PG) turrets. And if a change to skill stacking came, one that bases skills off of the driver and not the operator, EVERYTHING is on me to provide.
So what I want to see:
Small turrets are affected by OPERATOR skill and not the owners skill, ONLY. Meaning someone skilled into ADS can still get a 50% ROF bonus for putting the points into it.
Redesign the skill trees for small turrets, separating skills so that there skills of clear use to the owner of the vehicle for fitting purposes, and those that would wish to gun for the owner. Make gunning a thing!
RIght now, it is very worth it to skill for being an ADS gunner, but not so much for those gunning for an LAV or HAV. Removing skill stacking makes that even worse, but fixes problems with the ADS stacking. Main idea being, just because I slap guns on my tank, doesn't mean some blueberry off the street can waltz in and do just as good as somebody skilled into them.
Maybe even require skills to even OPERATE the damn thing eh?
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1110
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Posted - 2014.07.31 00:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:As an ADS pilot and gunner I want to see skill stacking go away. Even if it weren't unbalanced, it results in my death (due to missiles hitting the dropship and damaging me) more often than the extra ROF helps kill enemies!!
I do like the idea of applying some form of gunnery skills to all vehicles though: perhaps as simple as allowing Rapid Reload, Proficiency and Ammo Capacity to stack with the pilot would be enough to make skilling into vehicle stuff worthwhile?
There could be room for a gunnery skill line (though that would likely involve a client-side update) but how do you propose to keep it balanced?
Like I said in the GD posting, I like the 50% ROF bonus for gunning in the dropship, and I wish we had something for HAV's to make gunning more appealing.
But as far as the ADS goes, I would like to see it based on the gunner skill. So rather than the skill stacking, a gunner must skill into ADS to be just as proficient as the pilot of the ADS. Otherwise, with 0 skills, they gain no bonus. Stacking in my book is just overkill.
And I tried it tonight with a very good ADS pilot. I kept myself aware of the fact that shooting the dropship would suicide me and did quite well. With the added ROF bonus from stacked skills, we simply destroyed any tank that came to the field. And I liked it very much against infantry on the ground.
Still, it was clear to me that going beyond 50% might just be a bit overkill.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
36
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Posted - 2014.08.03 01:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
One stacked ADS kept 5 tanks in our redline...
Me being me, I drove out there. Guess what happened 
Solo tanker has zero counter to a non-stacked ADS.
 And please don't say wear a fat forge/swarm suit, pop out and try that yourself see how fast pilot retargets you instead.
So far only tactic that has worked is to have 2 gunners at all times, all in fat forges, and the second they swoop in, pop out.
(I was lucky enough to have two buds with assault forges so this may not work with mlt crap... just sayin )
Back on topic: What happens when a stacked ADS swoops in is much different.... I don't stack hardeners so idk maybe that would help, but yeah... if your tank doesn't pop instantly, and your gunners DO get out, it's to meet their biomass. Most likely from your explosion.
I guess you could potentially counter it with another stacked ADS.. oh wait 
They are mostly stacking so the odds of having a single pilot ADS, let alone a stacked one, are sad now.
"Tossin uplinks and runnin fer my life" ~ Gunny blownapart
"Lets group up and push an objective" ~ No blueberry ever
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