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Assault/Commando Suit Rework

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Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8741	Posted - 2014.07.13 15:46:00 - [1] - Quote I've been talking with some potential CPM candidates about this and I like some of the thoughts being brought up. However, I will never understand why they wouldn't want to get more community feedback as soon as possible on such topics. Maybe because they don't believe the community can understand these are very, very raw drawing-board ideas that don't necessarily mean anything to the actual game? But I believe we can all handle that. So onto the topic. The Assault and the Commando bleed into each other quite a lot. While there is no plans to merge/remove one of the roles in Dust 514, if we cannot clearly define and separate these two roles then one of them will almost surely be gone in the next iteration of guns-on-the-ground. So the idea that came up is we define the roles by: 1) How they dish out damage 2) How they tank EHP 1) Damage The Assault role would do high DPS damage, so the proposed class bonus is 2% damage output of all light weapons and sidearms per level. This is similar to the current Commando racial bonuses, except because it is a class bonus it doesn't apply to specific weapons, meaning all the Assault suits can freely use whichever weapons they want and still feel as though they are getting the main benefit of using the suit. The Commando on the other hand would do sustained damage, so the proposed class bonus 20% clip size of all light weapons per level, meaning at max level the Commando's clip for all weapons is doubled. Once again, this would be the main bonus of the suit and it applies to all weapons, so all Commandos can use whichever weapons they want and still feel as though they are getting the main benefit of using the suit. The bonus may seem large, but keep in mind they, along with the assault, are the two main combat-offense oriented suits in the game and the Assault would have the higher DPS while the Commando would also become increasingly dependent on nanohives as they quickly burn through ammo. 2) Tank The main idea here is that Assaults get the benefit of being able to quickly recover from engagement-to-engagement meaning less downtime whereas the Commando would get the benefit of being able to survive longer in single engagements. This works well with the previously discussed attributes as the Assaults would be able to use their speed and high DPS to quickly eliminate threats before they know what hit them whereas the Commando would be able to stay on its feet and deliver all those bullets. Racial Bonuses The idea with racial bonuses they allow that extra bit of specialization and make your fits more specific, but you can completely choose to ignore them if you want and still get that main Class Bonus and have more fitting freedom. So let's start with Assaults. Assaults Amarr: 5% heat reduction to laser weapons per level. Perfect, no need to change it. Caldari: Cannot recall exactly what we were discussing for this unfortunately Gallente: Rate of fire increase to plasma weapons Minmatar: We didn't think of anything that would be good regarding their weapons, and the current Minmatar Assault bonus would go to the commandos and we don't want to overlap skills. We're thinking perhaps a bonus to all regenerative modules? And then for the Commandos I'll start with the hardest part of the equation and that is the Amarr Commando. Since laser weapons have heat build up, they don't really benefit from having a larger clip size like the other weapons do. So the idea came up that perhaps we give them a reduction in Seize Duration, that is the amount of time you are seized up after overheating. Currently if you overheat a laser rifle you are seized for 7 seconds and if you overheat a scrambler rifle you are seized for 5 seconds, if we cut this in half for Amarr Commandos then overheating doesn't become something you avoid but just another part of the combat, and once your weapon cools down you still have ammo in the clip so you can get right back to firing without reloading. Commandos Amarr: 10% reduction in seize duration of laser weapons per level. Perhaps also a reduction to overheat damage taken. Caldari: Some sort of range increase to rail weapons is what we're thinking, feel free to comment (as with anything else) Gallente: 5% reload bonus to plasma weapons per level, so it becomes a devastating close range monster that almost never stops firing Minmatar: Again, can't recall exactly what was discussed for this Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8741	Posted - 2014.07.13 15:47:00 - [2] - Quote As you can see, this is all very early brainstorming and it was all done by your ordinary Dust 514 players just like you so it doesn't mean anything at all will happen. Please feel free to discuss and make your own revisions. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
ResistanceGTA You'll Only Die Tired 1391	Posted - 2014.07.13 15:56:00 - [3] - Quote So, I get: 6 Round Swarm 108 round CR 16 round Assault MD 2 round PLC I could work with that... If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Midas Fool Prophets of the Velocirapture 506	Posted - 2014.07.13 15:58:00 - [4] - Quote I like my reload bonus on my CalAssault. It is actually the exact bonus I need. I don't want to be slow and fat for my RR or Sniper to reload faster. I think it should stay the way it is. If they were to change anything, maybe spool-up time? That would benefit the RR, MgSMG and BP but not the SR. The Gallente also need some sort of better bonus. Double Commando reload sounds hilarious. ADV/PRO: 'Bishop' AmrLogistics, 'Commissar' CalSentinel, 'Rodelero' AmrScout, 'Legionnaire' CalAssault
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8744	Posted - 2014.07.13 16:02:00 - [5] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: I like my reload bonus on my CalAssault. It is actually the exact bonus I need. I don't want to be slow and fat for my RR or Sniper to reload faster. I think it should stay the way it is. If they were to change anything, maybe spool-up time? That would benefit the RR, MgSMG and BP but not the SR. The Gallente also need some sort of better bonus. Double Commando reload sounds hilarious. As you can see, we don't really have anything listed for the CalAssault bonus right now, so perhaps keep the reload bonus? The problem with that bonus now is when you compare the CalAssault and CalCommando you have Assault: 15% faster reload, 25% weapon fitting reduction Commando: 25% faster reload, 10% increased damage The CalCommando has better reloading plus more damage whereas the Assault gets a fitting reduction that frankly isn't very useful. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8744	Posted - 2014.07.13 16:05:00 - [6] - Quote ResistanceGTA wrote: So, I get: 6 Round Swarm 108 round CR 16 round Assault MD 2 round PLC I could work with that... 2 round PLC with increased reload on Gal commando could be really fun. And all this still would be apparently balanced as the assaults would all be faster with better regen and higher DPS. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Xocoyol Zaraoul Superior Genetics 2108	Posted - 2014.07.13 16:08:00 - [7] - Quote All assault suits need an actual "I am special" bonus... Scouts have a cloaked and ewar bonus on all roles, and are fast. Sents just won't die and carry huge weapons, and are slow. Commandos carry versatile mix of weapons and deal a lot of damage. Logies carry craploads of equip and support bonuses (My corpmates still make bank SP and WP with them, "nerfs" be damned). Assaults, uh.... Are... Slightly faster and substantially shittier commandos... Whoopidy friggen do... Assaults need a niche, more then any mere bonus, they need an honest-to-god nitch. They need a nitch that is NOT one of the following: Heavy Weapons DPS Equipment Spam Speed Durability EWAR My suggestion is to give all assaults bonuses to 1.) Max Ammunition (Not clip size) for racial weapons AND range bonus and 2.) Massive increase to racial regen preference (So armor tanks have a very high repper rate and shield tanks have a very high shield regen). This would allow Assaults to stay on the field the longest, have the shortest downtime, and have the longest threat range of any role. This means they would NOT step on the toes of any other role and yet be unique enough that they won't be garbage. But what do I know... I'm 12. ^ My usual copy-and-paste for this discussion... "You see those red dots over there? Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
Morathi III Pro Hic Immortalis 137	Posted - 2014.07.13 16:10:00 - [8] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Midas Fool wrote: I like my reload bonus on my CalAssault. It is actually the exact bonus I need. I don't want to be slow and fat for my RR or Sniper to reload faster. I think it should stay the way it is. If they were to change anything, maybe spool-up time? That would benefit the RR, MgSMG and BP but not the SR. The Gallente also need some sort of better bonus. Double Commando reload sounds hilarious. As you can see, we don't really have anything listed for the CalAssault bonus right now, so perhaps keep the reload bonus? The problem with that bonus now is when you compare the CalAssault and CalCommando you have Assault: 15% faster reload, 25% weapon fitting reduction Commando: 25% faster reload, 10% increased damage The CalCommando has better reloading plus more damage whereas the Assault gets a fitting reduction that frankly isn't very useful. commando is slow, bigger hitbox and see nothing
Fire of Prometheus Alpha Response Command 5266	Posted - 2014.07.13 16:11:00 - [9] - Quote I.....actually quite like these..... I would have a field day with my commandos if this went through +1 billion EDIT: 10 round clips on my Thales 6 round clips on my kaalakiota sniper I'm getting all giddy just thinking about it EDIT 2: 120 round balacs ARs 160 round Cala's ARs Damn.....I'm going to have fun if this goes through I can use all 4 proto commandos ^.^ CCP, at least fix my ck.0 commandos colour scheme...he looks like the Michelin man
Midas Fool Prophets of the Velocirapture 506	Posted - 2014.07.13 16:14:00 - [10] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: As you can see, we don't really have anything listed for the CalAssault bonus right now, so perhaps keep the reload bonus? The problem with that bonus now is when you compare the CalAssault and CalCommando you have Assault: 15% faster reload, 25% weapon fitting reduction Commando: 25% faster reload, 10% increased damage The CalCommando has better reloading plus more damage whereas the Assault gets a fitting reduction that frankly isn't very useful. Then maybe make the Assault bonus better? I don't think there is all that much problem with bonuses overlapping. All I know is the reload bonus on both suits is the perfect RR and SR skill. It is literally the best thing to make those two weapons more manageable. It also makes both the Magsec and BP really good. Also the weapon fitting reduction helps quite a bit, although it has me wondering why they don't just add that CPU and PG to the Assault suits to begin with. I like to be mobile and versatile in my CalAssault. I tried Commando but it's just too slow for my taste. I know a few CalComs and they do fine (it's a beast suit), but its simply a walking installation. Maybe give the DPS bonuses to the Assault and give the Commandos something like a Shield Extender bonus? That way it would work with your philosophy of "Commandos better at initial shock, Assaults better in multiple engagements". ADV/PRO: 'Bishop' AmrLogistics, 'Commissar' CalSentinel, 'Rodelero' AmrScout, 'Legionnaire' CalAssault

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8746	Posted - 2014.07.13 16:14:00 - [11] - Quote Xocoyol, I agree with giving assaults much better regen, but why exactly do you say that the Assault shouldn't get its main bonus towards DPS? When looking at the Assault and the Commando, the Assault is quicker and more agile so it makes much more sense that it is the role that carries the highest DPS. The Commando would then change to an ammunition type bonus, but it would make more sense IMO to make that a clip size bonus because you don't want any of the suits to become completely independent from nanohives. All this was discussed in the OP. You bring up points but don't explain why you make those points. Hopefully I made the reasoning for my points clear. Feel free to counter them! Just explain better why you are countering them. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Foo Fighting THE HANDS OF DEATH 103	Posted - 2014.07.13 16:59:00 - [12] - Quote If the assaults get regen and dps the commandos could get range and stamina. Stamina to help overcome the lack of speed and maintain optimal range and range itself as it would give a unique bonus that works with the role.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8749	Posted - 2014.07.13 17:10:00 - [13] - Quote Foo Fighting wrote: If the assaults get regen and dps the commandos could get range and stamina. Stamina to help overcome the lack of speed and maintain optimal range and range itself as it would give a unique bonus that works with the role. I was thinking about that as well, Commandos can really excel with range. However not all weapons are intended for range, for example the shotgun or assault rifle. That is my main concern with an overall range bonus for Commandos. Thoughts? Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Midas Fool Prophets of the Velocirapture 506	Posted - 2014.07.13 18:30:00 - [14] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I was thinking about that as well, Commandos can really excel with range. However not all weapons are intended for range, for example the shotgun or assault rifle. That is my main concern with an overall range bonus for Commandos. Thoughts? Well...wouldn't those two weapons benefit the most from a range bonus? ADV/PRO: 'Bishop' AmrLogistics, 'Commissar' CalSentinel, 'Rodelero' AmrScout, 'Legionnaire' CalAssault
Foo Fighting THE HANDS OF DEATH 103	Posted - 2014.07.14 15:17:00 - [15] - Quote Midas Fool wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I was thinking about that as well, Commandos can really excel with range. However not all weapons are intended for range, for example the shotgun or assault rifle. That is my main concern with an overall range bonus for Commandos. Thoughts? Well...wouldn't those two weapons benefit the most from a range bonus? Can't fault that logic.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11835	Posted - 2014.07.14 20:07:00 - [16] - Quote ^ Doubling Magazine capacity would probably cause me to quit the game. "I guess this is goodbye for now Little One. This is how you will become one of us, one of the Amarr." - Kador Ouryon
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 429	Posted - 2014.07.23 04:01:00 - [17] - Quote 've spent a lot of time thinking about what exactly to do with Assault suits to make them more appealing and less overshadowed. Number one thing in my mind has always been making sure they have a solid role to fill. With what Rattati's been posting lately, it would seem their intended role is indeed to be the slayer of the field. So with that in mind, overall I'm very for your suggested bonuses. But here's a few notes: Aero Yassavi wrote: 1) Damage The Assault role would do high DPS damage, so the proposed class bonus is 2% damage output of all light weapons and sidearms per level. This is similar to the current Commando racial bonuses, except because it is a class bonus it doesn't apply to specific weapons, meaning all the Assault suits can freely use whichever weapons they want and still feel as though they are getting the main benefit of using the suit. I definitely think this is the right way to go for the Assault's role bonus, although I'm just slightly concerned that a 10% total buff to direct damage for all weapons may be a bit much. I mean, Commandos only get the damage bonus to one type of light weapons, and it's really taking the place of two smaller bonuses (more on that below). I wonder if 1% per level might be more balanced. But, your suggestion crtainly would make the Assault suit unequivocally the best slayer around and actually make players want to use it, so maybe it's fine. Aero Yassavi wrote: The Commando on the other hand would do sustained damage, so the proposed class bonus 20% clip size of all light weapons per level, meaning at max level the Commando's clip for all weapons is doubled. Once again, this would be the main bonus of the suit and it applies to all weapons, so all Commandos can use whichever weapons they want and still feel as though they are getting the main benefit of using the suit. The bonus may seem large, but keep in mind they, along with the assault, are the two main combat-offense oriented suits in the game and the Assault would have the higher DPS while the Commando would also become increasingly dependent on nanohives as they quickly burn through ammo. Again, definitely feels like the right way to go, but I worry that wielding two light weapons with double clip sizes is a bit too powerful. Would 10% per level not work? An extra half a clip is still incredibly useful. Aero Yassavi wrote: Racial Bonuses So first a quick note about something I've noticed with current racial bonuses; the standard trend seems to be actually getting two separate smaller bonuses. Logis get two bonuses to different aspects of their racial equipment, Scouts each get a bonus to two separate stats, and Sentinels get their two differing damage resistances. Commandos only get the one bonus, but I always figured that a direct damage bonus affecting multiple weapons worth as much as two complex damage mods (without any stacking penalty) was definitely worth those two bonuses. Assault suits however really got the short end of the stick here, something I've called out before. Aero Yassavi wrote: Assaults Amarr: 5% heat reduction to laser weapons per level. Perfect, no need to change it. Caldari: Cannot recall exactly what we were discussing for this unfortunately Gallente: Rate of fire increase to plasma weapons Minmatar: We didn't think of anything that would be good regarding their weapons, and the current Minmatar Assault bonus would go to the commandos and we don't want to overlap skills. We're thinking perhaps a bonus to all regenerative modules? So with what I mentioned above in mind, I'd suggest giving Assault suits one bonus to their racial weaponry, and then one bonus to their racially preferred method of tanking. So Amarr can keep their heat reduction bonus, and then also a bonus to armor plates. Caldari could perhaps get a reduction to either the kick or charge-up time of railgun weaponry, as well as a bonus to shield extenders. RoF for plasma weapons could work for Gallente, as long as it's not too big of an increase, and then also a bonus to armor repairers. For Minmatar, maybe a reduction to dispersion for projectile weapons? Not exactly sure what would work there. And then also a bonus to shield rechargers. Aero Yassavi wrote: Commandos Amarr: 10% reduction in seize duration of laser weapons per level. Perhaps also a reduction to overheat damage taken. Caldari: Some sort of range increase to rail weapons is what we're thinking, feel free to comment (as with anything else) Gallente: 5% reload bonus to plasma weapons per level, so it becomes a devastating close range monster that almost never stops firing Minmatar: Again, can't recall exactly what was discussed for this So again, I think Commandos should be getting two separate bonuses; I was thinking two separate bonuses to their race's weaponry. Amarr getting a reduction to seize duration and feedback damage works perfectly. For the Caldari, I'd be afraid of a range increase becoming abused very quickly. What about just a bonus to reload time and then either charge-up time or kick for railguns (whichever the Assault doesn't get)? And then the Gallente could get a bonus to reload time and dispersion for plasma weaponry, and the Minmatar could get a bonus to reload time and dispersion for projectile weaponry. Something like that. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
RendonaSix Techs Laboratory 179	Posted - 2014.07.23 04:09:00 - [18] - Quote So, buffs for amarr and a whole bunch of other irrelevant crap for the scumbags or as close as possible. Sounds good , seriously. Just change the slots layouts for every other suit other than anything amarr to a 0/0 slot layout and were good to go. "For those who have seen the light, repentance you shall find, for within the heart of battle, scum you shall grind"
Michael Arck 4944	Posted - 2014.07.23 05:08:00 - [19] - Quote Aw dammit. I gotta read? Where's the whiskey? Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 12136	Posted - 2014.07.23 05:28:00 - [20] - Quote RendonaSix wrote: So, buffs for amarr and a whole bunch of other irrelevant crap for the scumbags or as close as possible. Sounds good , seriously. Just change the slots layouts for every other suit other than anything amarr to a 0/0 slot layout and were good to go. How are the proposed changes bad for any other Commando. Aero has all 4 Commando frames protoed to my knowledge alongside other dedicated Commando's like Fire of Promethius. Caldari are typically increasing the range before damage fall off, that's a fair suggestions alongside RR charge up reductions or reload bonuses for efficient firing. Minmatar also do the damage fall off thing, they would also get bonuses perhaps to explosives weapons radii or splash damage. "Your Faith stands as a shield for the Faithful, and you are one of His Angels." - Soren Tyrhannos to Templar Ouryon



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