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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
10671
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Posted - 2014.07.05 16:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, there is a thing with EVE where players have to warn CCP at a 24 hour notice that there is going to be a massive battle in system X. That way, they can harden that node, allowing for the battle to go smoothly. (Most nodes can't support a 2000 player battle)
Now, it is speculated that the reason they can't distribute the load between nodes is because of backend issues due to the game being from 2003, and most of the code being a gigantic mess.
Now with Legion, if large scale battles are to be supported, you can't require players to warn CCP of imminent battles. So, is it going to be a problem? Or can you guys distribute the load between your servers? Or maybe there is some magic I don't understand?
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Mobius Wyvern
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
5304
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Posted - 2014.07.05 17:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:So, there is a thing with EVE where players have to warn CCP at a 24 hour notice that there is going to be a massive battle in system X. That way, they can harden that node, allowing for the battle to go smoothly. (Most nodes can't support a 2000 player battle)
Now, it is speculated that the reason they can't distribute the load between nodes is because of backend issues due to the game being from 2003, and most of the code being a gigantic mess.
Now with Legion, if large scale battles are to be supported, you can't require players to warn CCP of imminent battles. So, is it going to be a problem? Or can you guys distribute the load between your servers? Or maybe there is some magic I don't understand? I think this is an important question.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15195
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Posted - 2014.07.05 21:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would guess that it'd be done differently to what happens in EVE.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
10685
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Posted - 2014.07.05 22:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I would guess that it'd be done differently to what happens in EVE. Well yes, of course, I doubt they would do what developers from 2003 did.
I'm just making sure if it's going to be a problem or not, because Legion will run off of the same servers and interact with that game from 2003.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8845
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Posted - 2014.07.05 22:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Considering this is a first person shooter with completely different mechanics involved vs that of Eve's point-to-point mechanics, the server load caused by Legion might be handled differently. I don't expect to see CCP require us to do something like that with Legion.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Malkai Inos
Any Given Day
1470
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Posted - 2014.07.05 22:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
The best solution would be to realize on-the-fly node switches so that the server can react to load spikes while preserving the current game state.
The worst what would happen with such a system would be a single lag spike whenever the instance switches to reinforced mode.
The best, best solution would be to have sufficient head room available at all times so that reinforcement is unnecessary in the first place, though running all instances on hardware that is horribly oversized for the load 99% of the time is not the smartest thing to do financially since the overcapacity will not result in any practical advantages.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Hawk-eye Occultus
ARKOMBlNE
258
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Posted - 2014.07.05 22:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I would guess that it'd be done differently to what happens in EVE. Well yes, of course, I doubt they would do what developers from 2003 did. I'm just making sure if it's going to be a problem or not, because Legion will run off of the same servers and interact with that game from 2003.
You do the same thing anyone does when you need more pow in your power...
WELD MORE SERVERS TO YOUR SERVER!
Pretty sure that they welded a "$50 000" server onto Tranquillity (called Frankenstein) so that Jita wouldn't die of having people in it. It's in one of the old fanfest vids.
Shofixti beats an Ur-Quan Dreadnought and a Kor-Ah Marauder.
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Malkai Inos
Any Given Day
1471
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Posted - 2014.07.05 23:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hawk-eye Occultus wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I would guess that it'd be done differently to what happens in EVE. Well yes, of course, I doubt they would do what developers from 2003 did. I'm just making sure if it's going to be a problem or not, because Legion will run off of the same servers and interact with that game from 2003. You do the same thing anyone does when you need more pow in your power... WELD MORE SERVERS TO YOUR SERVER! Pretty sure that they welded a "$50 000" server onto Tranquillity (called Frankenstein) so that Jita wouldn't die of having people in it. It's in one of the old fanfest vids. I'm not sure what you mean by "weld". Jita uses his down dedicated server blade to cope with the massive load while most other systems can be handled in packs of multiples per physical machine. This is called "reinforcement" where, in case of prior notification ( or jita), CCP offloads the surrounding systems to other blades so that one server can handle a single system. (it's possible they have special, more powerful blades for those occasions aswell)
The downside to this has always been that reinforcement at least disconnects everyone in all affected systems and is better done during DT to avoid unforeseen problems.
What you cannot (feasibly) do is use multiple physical machines to handle a single server instance because the actions of all the players and AI can not really be parallelized ( e.g. server A cannot calculate the actions of player A before server B has decided whether or not player B has just killed, or otherwise impacted player A). The communication overhead required to make this happen would be humongous and the latencies involved are likely to eat up all theoretical benefits if not make things just worse.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8845
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Posted - 2014.07.05 23:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:The best solution would be to realize on-the-fly node switches so that the server can react to load spikes while preserving the current game state.
The worst what would happen with such a system would be a single lag spike whenever the instance switches to reinforced mode.
The best, best solution would be to have sufficient head room available at all times so that reinforcement is unnecessary in the first place, though running all instances on hardware that is horribly oversized for the load 99% of the time is not the smartest thing to do financially since the overcapacity will not result in any practical advantages.
The "best solution" you referred to will end up being negated eventually as Eve Online's battle history is solid proof of that. Back then servers were not that strong and most battles back then were only able to support up to 500 players at once (TOPS). As the servers began to be upgraded and was able to support more players in one system, suddenly the battles grew in size from 500 to 1,000 strong. Once again, the server had to be upgraded and from 1,000 we went into 3,000 players stronger over the course of just a few years. Even now, with TiDi implemented, people still feel that the servers need to be upgraded. It's a never ending cycle.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Malkai Inos
Any Given Day
1471
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Posted - 2014.07.05 23:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:The best solution would be to realize on-the-fly node switches so that the server can react to load spikes while preserving the current game state.
The worst what would happen with such a system would be a single lag spike whenever the instance switches to reinforced mode.
The best, best solution would be to have sufficient head room available at all times so that reinforcement is unnecessary in the first place, though running all instances on hardware that is horribly oversized for the load 99% of the time is not the smartest thing to do financially since the overcapacity will not result in any practical advantages. The "best solution" you referred to will end up being negated eventually as Eve Online's battle history is solid proof of that. Back then servers were not that strong and most battles back then were only able to support up to 500 players at once (TOPS). As the servers began to be upgraded and was able to support more players in one system, suddenly the battles grew in size from 500 to 1,000 strong. Once again, the server had to be upgraded and from 1,000 we went into 3,000 players stronger over the course of just a few years. Even now, with TiDi implemented, people still feel that the servers need to be upgraded. It's a never ending cycle. It absolutely is. However, the load any server instance (system, map, you name it) puts on the physical machine can vary from essentially nothing, when no one's there and it's just kept running, to OMFGBBQ in cases of good ol' blob warfare with thousands of players.
Because the former scenario, or something very close to it, makes up at least 90% (more like 95-98%) of the time in terms of load per system if you exclude Jita and surroundings, having every single system handled by the best server money can buy is a ridiculous waste of money and energy.
That's why you need some ability to scale the computational power dedicated to every instance. In the case of EVE the current solution is to have most systems be handled in groups per physical machine because that's generally enough.
Only when things go south does CCP start to reserve more, including 100%, of the resources a server blade can offer to make sure you still get the highest performance money can currently buy when you need it.
So while, yeah, you have to keep your hardware and software up to date to handle increasingly extreme load scenarios, should they occur, going for maximum performance at all times in every instance is completely infeasible and quite simply useless because the extra power provides zero benefit for the vast majority of time.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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Sete Clifton
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY
430
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Posted - 2014.07.06 02:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
I guess my question in all of this is (and forgive me if this has been confirmed, I'm kind of out of the loop with Legion) do we even know if "large scale battles" will be a thing in Legion? I assume that planets/districts/maps/whatever you want to call them will have player cap limits.
I mean from what I can tell we don't actually move around the universe freely like in EVE, and instead just pick zones/battles to load into from the star map, which is essentially just a server list like most games have except it's more graphical. So if I'm looking for a standard skirmish battle or to do some free-roam PvEvP on Planet X and it already has 64 of 64 players connected, then I'm SOL and need to look elsewhere, or wait until a spot opens up. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
8846
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Posted - 2014.07.06 10:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
Malkai Inos wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:The best solution would be to realize on-the-fly node switches so that the server can react to load spikes while preserving the current game state.
The worst what would happen with such a system would be a single lag spike whenever the instance switches to reinforced mode.
The best, best solution would be to have sufficient head room available at all times so that reinforcement is unnecessary in the first place, though running all instances on hardware that is horribly oversized for the load 99% of the time is not the smartest thing to do financially since the overcapacity will not result in any practical advantages. The "best solution" you referred to will end up being negated eventually as Eve Online's battle history is solid proof of that. Back then servers were not that strong and most battles back then were only able to support up to 500 players at once (TOPS). As the servers began to be upgraded and was able to support more players in one system, suddenly the battles grew in size from 500 to 1,000 strong. Once again, the server had to be upgraded and from 1,000 we went into 3,000 players stronger over the course of just a few years. Even now, with TiDi implemented, people still feel that the servers need to be upgraded. It's a never ending cycle. It absolutely is. However, the load any server instance (system, map, you name it) puts on the physical machine can vary from essentially nothing, when no one's there and it's just kept running, to OMFGBBQ in cases of good ol' blob warfare with thousands of players. Because the former scenario, or something very close to it, makes up at least 90% (more like 95-98%) of the time in terms of load per system if you exclude Jita and surroundings, having every single system handled by the best server money can buy is a ridiculous waste of money and energy. That's why you need some ability to scale the computational power dedicated to every instance. In the case of EVE the current solution is to have most systems be handled in groups per physical machine because that's generally enough. Only when things go south does CCP start to reserve more, including 100%, of the resources a server blade can offer to make sure you still get the highest performance possible when you need it. So while, yeah, you have to keep your hardware and software up to date to handle increasingly extreme load scenarios, should they occur, going for maximum performance at all times in every instance is completely infeasible and quite simply useless because the extra power provides zero benefit for the vast majority of time. Edit: I'm starting to feel that you were talking about the second "solution" and the impossibility of having "enough" resources to begin with because players invariably respond by dumping just more stuff onto the field which is obviously true. Disregard if that's the case.
Yes, I was referring to the second solution. However you do have a valid point about the first solution and I support that.
Overall, players do just dump stuff on the part of the game that has the most resources devoted to it. Again, Eve Online is an example especially within Jita system. In fact, Jita is a prime example in which we don't need a combat scenario in order to see excessive server load.
For those who don't know anything about Jita, the star system within Eve Online, it is the famous economic hub of New Eden followed by Amarr, Rens, and Dodixie respectively. Because it is the go-to system to buy/sell everything you can think of, players naturally flock to it. Amarr, Rens, and Dodixie naturally act as a buffer in case Jita gets too crowded for the server to handle. When the server can't handle anymore, the stargates connecting to Jita start momentarily locking down simulating congested traffic like how you see rush hour traffic in an expressway. There are millions of transactions done every day in Jita along with thousands of daily jumps into and out of Jita plus the constant spamming of local with "BUY NOW" offers (mostly scam).
As an added tidbit, Jita was never really decided by CCP. From what I heard about it, Jita was selected by the players simply because its location in relation to everything else was the most convenient. This was also at a time when Caldari once had an advantage over the other races in terms of Learning Skills (which were eventually removed). It is just about 10 jumps away from Amarr, hardly anymore than 10 jumps to and from the nearest low-sec systems, and the nearby systems within its constellation offers decent resources for those who know how to work a tight and demanding mining schedule while being competitive. Jita has it all. So naturally players converged there and Jita eventually grew to become the go-to system for anything you need.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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