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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
8679
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Posted - 2014.07.01 07:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
The whole idea of having a lot of importance focused on specialization is that higher specialized players in a specific role will perform much better than those who are not. Someone who invested into all the HAV related skills should win most engagements with those are only put a few days or weeks worth of SP in HAVs for example, so if you want a good shot at eliminating that threat you'd need someone similarly specialized in HAVs or taking out HAVs. Same can be said for any of the other roles in your video game.
Having a focus on specialization turns your game into a bit of a role-playing game (RPG) where having the combat is balanced by the idea that one player cannot max out all the skill trees, as the higher up the tree you get the longer it takes, and thus create relative balance. Newer players still fit into this relative balance because the more specialized you get the better you become at one thing and the less flexible you become, while newer unspecialized players may not be the best at anything but will be more adaptable, thus still achieving the relative balance. This is opposed to more classical style video games that have no skill trees and instead work around the idea of absolute blance in that every player, new and old alike, is given the exact same tools and abilities as every other player and it is up to them to make it work.
Both systems can work, though the latter is definitely easier to design while the former has a much bigger potential to create a sense of investment in the player thus keeping them coming back. The problem with DUST 514, however, is that it doesn't abide by the idea that one player cannot max out all the skill trees. Some people around these forums may complain about things they deem as "SP Sinks," but those sinks are absolutely necessary for a game focused around specialization. In DUST 514, there are not enough skills/sinks and thus you have created this dilemma where only a year and a half after the last SP reset you have a large portion of the player base who is completely specialized in many or even all the roles in the game. The balance of the game between those players thus shifts from one of relative balance around being highly skilled in different things to one of absolute balance of everyone having the exact same tools and abilities. The reason this shift is a problem is because it then leaves no place for newer players to have a role. You have a large portion of the players that are not just better at a specific role than newer players but at better at every role than newer players and more flexible as well.
If CCP really wants to create a game that survives for 10+ years, let alone stays balanced after a year and a half, they need to really up the amount of time it takes to fully specialize in something. Sure some may say, "There are over 221 million skill points worth of skills in Dust 514! No one can max all that out!" but you must keep in mind most of that is variations of the same role where you only really need one of each. It may not be a popular opinion, but there really needs to be a lot more sinks in these specializations. Either that or CCP needs to come up with a lot more carefully intertwined roles, but that would take up a lot of resources.
TL;DR
Hit the Backspace key.
Amarr are the good guys
Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
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Mauren NOON
The Exemplars
Top Men.
334
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Posted - 2014.07.01 07:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Stopped reading after paragraph 2, lol here's a hint... Make it short and sweet aero. I got bored. Oh and....FIRST!
Scr and commando enthusiast.
A commando is not just a suit, but a way of life...
"The only thing to fear is fear itself"
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Aero Yassavi
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
8679
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Posted - 2014.07.01 08:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah I have a bad problem with long posts. Though I figure if anyone is going to take the time to read it then their comment will be a good one.
Amarr are the good guys
Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
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Atiim
Fooly Cooly.
Anime Empire.
10184
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Posted - 2014.07.05 01:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Besides the AVer and Vehicle Pilot roles, it takes about 7-8m SP to completely specialize into a role. Considering how that's 5-6 months worth of SP, I think the time it takes to specialize into a role is fine where it's at.
Though I would be in favor of splitting up some skills, but only if the SP multiplier is proportionally reduced as well. Let's look at the Grenadier skill for example. Currently, it is one skill which gives you access to all 3 Grenades (Flux, AV, and Locus). While this may seem good in theory, it actually forces people to pay for things that they may not want, and it favors generalization over specialization.
My fix, would be splitting the skill into 3 different trees:
- AV Grenade Operation
- Flux Grenade Operation
- Locus Grenade Operation
This forces specialization, and is beneficial in the sense that you aren't paying SP for things you don't use.
Long Live The Anime Empire
-HAND
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Midas Fool
Prophets of the Velocirapture
493
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Posted - 2014.07.05 02:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Besides the AVer and Vehicle Pilot roles, it takes about 7-8m SP to completely specialize into a role. Considering how that's 5-6 months worth of SP, I think the time it takes to specialize into a role is fine where it's at. Though I would be in favor of splitting up some skills, but only if the SP multiplier is proportionally reduced as well. Let's look at the Grenadier skill for example. Currently, it is one skill which gives you access to all 3 Grenades (Flux, AV, and Locus). While this may seem good in theory, it actually forces people to pay for things that they may not want, and it favors generalization over specialization. My fix, would be splitting the skill into 3 different trees:
- AV Grenade Operation
- Flux Grenade Operation
- Locus Grenade Operation
This forces specialization, and is beneficial in the sense that you aren't paying SP for things you don't use.
I would also add sharpshooter (and maybe other) skills to all weapons, and skill trees for all equipment.
There should also be additional weapon upgrades (not just damage mods) and skills for all of them.
I wouldn't mind more shield/armor/electronics/biotics skills either.
There should also be leadership, standing, and market skills.
All in all good write-up OP. I don't know if it should take longer to specialize, but more skills in general would be nice.
ADV/PRO: 'Bishop' AmrLogistics, 'Commissar' CalSentinel, 'Rodelero' AmrScout, 'Legionnaire' CalAssault
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Mike De Luca
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
147
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Posted - 2014.07.05 03:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Midas Fool wrote:and skill trees for all equipment.
Just saying
what i think of when charging fg
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
League of Infamy
3617
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Posted - 2014.07.05 05:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
You make some excellent points, I hasn't really thought of the potential to completly destroy the RPG framework by making it possible to obtain everything In a realistic time frame.
But just making more SP sinks out of what we have would be rather tiresome, if that's what you are proposing. I for one had always assumed that to make the 10 year life cycle even remotely palatable, CCP would have to do it with tech 2 type expansion of further specialization.
(Instead they are just blowing it up and starting over, it seems)
I suppose what you could do, is to make it such that obtaining a single specialization is not too much different than it is now, maybe 10 mil SP, but create barriers that increase the costs substantially to add additional ones. I'm not sure of the best way to do that, I'd have to think about it.
Perhaps maintenance costs for exciting specialties kick in when you open up a new one. Think of it as practicing: if I'm a great tennis player, but decide I want to start playing, I dunno, soccer instead, I can't exactly go play nothing but soccer but then expect to go back and be just as good at tennis if I haven't even picked up a racket in a year. I'd need to practice both to maintain my skills.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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I-Shayz-I
I----------I
3912
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Posted - 2014.07.05 12:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Before I say anything, your post is far from being long, and it is very well written and organized. It's better than 90% of the threads out here...Ignore #2's post.
As for increasing the sink into specialization, I'm in agreement, but different than what you're probably thinking.
The biggest problem in Dust is the matchmaking. There is literally no separation of noobs and pros when it comes to this game. A brand new player right out of the academy is thrown into matches of 50 million sp players without any sort of separation. Changing this is something that could be possible in Dust. Adding new skills or more sinks is something that's better off left for Legion.
For instance, there should be all sorts of end-game skills after the unlocks for equipment that increase the effectiveness of the less important factors. Imagine x5 skills such as increased effectiveness of the repair tool towards wehicles, increasing nanohive HP, or decreasing dB level of uplinks (dampening them against scans to hide them better).
Then there could also be separate skills for each bonus that the suit gets instead of just giving the suit an automatic bonus. But then you make it so that level 5 costs a ton of sp, but increases the ability of the suit more than it is now.
Each suit might get a bonus to a type of weaponry depending on race, and then the bonus depending on suit type. Then there would be a fitting skill for certain types of items (similar to the assault bonus to weapons, and logi bonus to equipment...to be specific, biotics mod fitting reduction for Minmatar and Amarr scout, e-war fitting reduction for caldari and gallente scout). The last bonus would be a core bonus skill that increased abilities of the suit iself (similar to the damage reduction bonus for sentinels, or the natural hacking bonus for logistics)
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
List of Legion Feedback Threads!
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15181
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Posted - 2014.07.05 13:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
On the other hand, DUST is already very grindy. It takes weeks to get single items.
If the time to fully specialise is to be increased, there need to be more stepping stones along the way to keep progression enjoyable.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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