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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3935
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Posted - 2014.07.01 01:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
There are 3 frame sizes in Dust
Light: Low Profile, Low HP, High Speed, High Shield Regen stats (armor rep gallente), High Stamina Stats
Medium: Medium Profile, Medium HP, Medium Speed, Medium Shield Regen Stats (armor rep gallente), Medium Stamina, Most Slots
Heavy: High Profile, High HP, Low Speed, Low Regen Stats, Low Stamina, Heavy Weapon Handling/Dual Light Weapons
OK so that's currently things in Dust.
As you can see Medium Frames are, well, medium, average, mundane. They have nothing special, no low profile, no high HP, no fast speed, no super regen, no heavy weapons, they aren't super.
However they are the foundation of Dust, they are the krill of our food chain. They are the essential frame for cannon fodder, for making an offensive, etc.
It is the ability of the medium frame to take any course they wish. A medium frame can effectively tank, regen tank, profile dampen, they are the suit of diversity. They have the most slots to take on the field of diversity or to have an edge on the other two frames, to further their fit development. Yet they can never surpass a heavy on the ability to tank, a scout on the ability to regen tank, etc. They are the jack of all trades master of none.
Dust needs cannon fodder thus a reason to be cannon fodder. Everybody agrees Assaults need dat buff. But think about what it means to be a medium frame before making willy nilly suggestions.
Lately a popular one is "Make Assaults the regen tankers"
That is just wrong. As a medium frame it's supposed to be mundane in starting stats. The medium frame is a blank sheet just waiting for the user to draw on it. There's no one role it's forced into or one play style.
People have been putting forth their reasons for regen tanked assaults but it's my opinion that they are wrong because if you look at the cards on the table they make sense as is. It wouldn't make sense if heavies had immense health and could get it back in an instant. It wouldn't make sense if you lights had less health and were slow to recover.
THE SYSTEM
Heavies are heavy, they are tanks
Lights are fast, they are mobile & regenerative
Mediums are medium, they are the twain capable of many things but master of none.
Rattati is smart: he's going to buff assaults without having some counterweight attached that nerfs scouts or sentinels. He's going to touch up on things one variable at a time. Because Rattati is smart I know he will not radically alter things so Assaults are regen tankers because I think he sees the cards on the table. There are ways to make the assault suit attractive without upsetting the system that has been in place forever.
Also my last note: If you wanted to regen tank why didn't you choose the light frame to begin with? It has had the best regen stats since the dawn of time. It's not like you didn't have the choice staring you in the face. Words from an armor rep tanker.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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Mortedeamor
NoGameNoLife
1767
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Posted - 2014.07.01 01:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
yes but dust doesnt follow this formula light frame have high hp
if everything in dust adhered to these guidlines it would be fine..but it doesnt..light frames..sacrifice next to nothing..and can tank entirely to much |
Brokerib
Lone Wolves Club
1517
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Posted - 2014.07.01 01:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Agree with this. I'd like to see Mediums be the most versatile, so they have the option to accrue massive regen if they fit for it, but can equally play into any other role, if they so chose. Fix the Assault module layout and it opens up all sorts of possibilities.
Knowledge is power
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3935
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Posted - 2014.07.01 01:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mortedeamor wrote:yes but dust doesnt follow this formula light frame have high hp
A medium frame haz more [/discussion]
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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Echo 1991
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
342
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Posted - 2014.07.01 01:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:yes but dust doesnt follow this formula light frame have high hp A medium frame haz more [/discussion]
for an extra 200 hp, you are slower, highly scannable, cant detect anything without equipment, cant fit all proto weaponry or decent equipment and you basically become a waddling target. tell me how this makes sense, that a scout can do almost the same amount of tanking and not have any of the drawbacks. |
Atiim
Fooly Cooly.
10065
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Posted - 2014.07.01 01:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:yes but dust doesnt follow this formula light frame have high hp A medium frame haz more [/discussion]
Not enough to encourage it's use over the Scout [/argument]
Taking Care of The Pilot Infestation in North American Skirmish
-HAND
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3935
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Posted - 2014.07.01 01:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:yes but dust doesnt follow this formula light frame have high hp A medium frame haz more [/discussion] for an extra 200 hp, you are slower, highly scannable, cant detect anything without equipment, cant fit all proto weaponry or decent equipment and you basically become a waddling target. tell me how this makes sense, that a scout can do almost the same amount of tanking and not have any of the drawbacks.
it doesn't that gap needs to be 400 at least
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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Echo 1991
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
342
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Posted - 2014.07.01 02:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
When the base HP stat of a gal scout combined is 200 and the assault is 320 and the difference at proto is one high slot, im faily certain that if i went for all hp the difference would be around 200. |
Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3935
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Posted - 2014.07.01 02:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:When the base HP stat of a gal scout combined is 200 and the assault is 320 and the difference at proto is one high slot, im faily certain that if i went for all hp the difference would be around 200.
No I know the gap is 200 I'm saying it needs to be higher like the Galsault needs and extra low slot
I'm saying there is a problem and that is that medium frames are lacking not that light frames are excelling. If you nerf the light frames then we'd just be stuck with heavies. Heavies and lights are both very viable now, but medium frames are not. Medium frames are lacking, lights and heavies aren't OP. Just by comparison.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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Lynn Beck
EnvyUs.
1978
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Posted - 2014.07.01 02:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alright, assaults dont need to be regen MONSTERS.
Scouts don't need to regen their(supposedly) low HP in 2 ticks.
EWAR minjas regen their shield in 2.5-5 ticks.
A minmatar assault regens in 20.(assuming 400 shield at 25/s)
Why must there be such a RIDICULOUS disparity between the 2?
Alright, now let's fit meta.
Minmatar assault Mk.0, fitting 4 extenders, Complex energizer, and for all intensive purposes, they have the same shield delays.
Minmatar Scout Mk.0 fitting 3 extenders.
Scout has 343 shield at 40/s, and has 3 lows to work with.
Assault has 478 shield at 35/s, and has 1 low(regulator in other to attain the similar timers)
Say they both get fluxed.
Assault and scout begin regen at te same time.
Time assault scout
1. 35. 40
2. 70. 80
3. 105. 120
4. 140. 160
5. 175. 200
6. 210. 240
7. 245. 280
8. 280. 320
9. 315. 343(done)
So 9 seconds barring delays to regen.
The assault however, has sacrificed another high slot, only to regen 15% slower than te scout.
So now, my ever so gimped Minmatar Scout, is essentially a better Minmatar Assault, without a clipsize bonus.
At base stats, my assault fully tanked would take 25 seconds to regen(25/s, 560 shield)
My minja regens in 9.
A scout could reasonably take a hit of UP TO 50% in recharge, and still be more or less unaffected in the regen department in terms of scoutly fits.
Calscout would regen in 4 ticks, compared to 2
Minja would regen in 5 ticks, compared to 2.5.
Amarr would regen in like 5.5, compared to 3-ish.
Galscout would regen in 3.
Meanwhile a Gal Assault's BASE shield of about 150 regens in 10.
Tl:dr
Scouts will not be 'nerfed to oblivion' if they lose their shieldrecharge, at least, not the scoutly scouts.
Scouts rely on knowing enemy locations, not coming back to fight every 3 seconds.
Assaults should rely on shield recharge(even GalAssault) to regenerate their buffer quickly enough that they may stop pursuers, or be in a reasonable enough position to re-attack (read: assault) in as short of a timeframe as possible.
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
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sabre prime
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
281
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Posted - 2014.07.01 03:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Something that will help suit balance is that each type of suit needs to have a unique ability or piece of equipment associated with it. The equipment should get a huge fitting bonus that let's only a specific suit type fit it efficiently.
- scouts have the cloak.
- heavies have their resistance bonuses.
- logistics should get the bubble shield to enhance their survivability. Remove sidearm from Amarr logi in this case.
- assaults should get something like a jetpack.
Your welcome.
Desperate attempt to get BPOs
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Echo 1991
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
345
|
Posted - 2014.07.01 03:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
sabre prime wrote:Something that will help suit balance is that each type of suit needs to have a unique ability or piece of equipment associated with it. The equipment should get a huge fitting bonus that let's only a specific suit type fit it efficiently.
- scouts have the cloak.
- heavies have their resistance bonuses.
- logistics should get the bubble shield to enhance their survivability. Remove sidearm from Amarr logi in this case.
- assaults should get something like a jetpack.
Your welcome.
PS2 much? |
Appia Vibbia
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
3060
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Posted - 2014.07.01 03:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bojo, Bojo, Bojo, I applaud the attempt.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com
AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3938
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Posted - 2014.07.01 03:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
I wanted to avoid the numbers game  Lynn Beck wrote:
Minmatar assault Mk.0, fitting 4 extenders, Complex energizer, and for all intensive purposes, they have the same shield delays.
Minmatar Scout Mk.0 fitting 3 extenders.
Scout has 343 shield at 40/s, and has 3 lows to work with.
Assault has 478 shield at 35/s, and has 1 low(regulator in other to attain the similar timers)
So 9 seconds barring delays to regen.
The assault however, has sacrificed another high slot, only to regen 15% slower than te scout.
The Assault has 39% more shields. The issue I see here is that Shield Rechargers are high slots and thus could not be fitted because it interferes with the purpose of shield tanking.
You know what I may see a flaw in my argument. My argument is coming from an Armor Repair based regen tank. I don't shield regen tank, I don't have enough worth to tank. Iggy told me that on his Caldari Heavy he stacks shield rechargers and regulators so he can have a fat tissue of shielding regenerate like a scouts. Maybe the whole system is backward for shield tankers:
Heavy - Promotes regen tanking?
Medium - Promotes Both
Light - Promotes HP tanking?
Quote:
So now, my ever so gimped Minmatar Scout, is essentially a better Minmatar Assault, without a clipsize bonus.
At base stats, my assault fully tanked would take 25 seconds to regen(25/s, 560 shield)
My minja regens in 9.
Your Minnow Assault has 63% more shields and regens (undelayed) at 63% of the scout's. 
Quote:Scouts rely on knowing enemy locations, not coming back to fight every 3 seconds.
Assaults should rely on shield recharge(even GalAssault) to regenerate their buffer quickly enough that they may stop pursuers, or be in a reasonable enough position to re-attack (read: assault) in as short of a timeframe as possible.
OK come on I have 250 HP I get cut like paper, so it should repair *snap* like that, there's no time when you have low HP. Just because you know where they are means you're not going to be in for a fight. We get the jump but it's never going to kill them quick enough to not retaliate. Nerfing scout regen sure it'll help against shield tanking but it will hurt the eWar scouts who don't fit tank modules. It will hurt any scout who doesn't tank either and plus it doesn't help the assaults any. Assaults need help but one thing at a time. Scouts are no more powerful than heavies, it's just the assaults that are lacking.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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J0LLY R0G3R
And the ButtPirates
960
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Posted - 2014.07.01 03:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:yes but dust doesnt follow this formula light frame have high hp A medium frame haz more [/discussion]
tears. I win. XD
Where I'll be - Destiny Alpha Montage - XD
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
104
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Posted - 2014.07.01 03:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:
OK come on I have 250 HP I get cut like paper, so it should repair *snap* like that, there's no time when you have low HP. Just because you know where they are means you're not going to be in for a fight. We get the jump but it's never going to kill them quick enough to not retaliate. Nerfing scout regen sure it'll help against shield tanking but it will hurt the eWar scouts who don't fit tank modules. It will hurt any scout who doesn't tank either and plus it doesn't help the assaults any. Assaults need help but one thing at a time. Scouts are no more powerful than heavies, it's just the assaults that are lacking.
If you're able to see where almost all your enemies are, and not avoid an engagement, you're not exactly the best scout to begin with...And about the whole recharge rate, no one said anything about changing the delays, just the values, I mean c'mon if you're an e-war scout 25hp/s should be more than enough regen for you to not die after the regular delay(as long as you're not tanking...)
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Tectonic Fusion
1817
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Posted - 2014.07.01 04:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Change the base "tank" stat to 410 and change both base stats of the minmatar to change both shield and armor.
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3939
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Posted - 2014.07.01 04:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
If you're able to see where almost all your enemies are, and not avoid an engagement, you're not exactly the best scout to begin with...And about the whole recharge rate, no one said anything about changing the delays, just the values, I mean c'mon if you're an e-war scout 25hp/s should be more than enough regen for you to not die after the regular delay, if you do get caught(as long as you're not tanking...)
Your statement needs clarifying
"If you're able to see where almost all your enemies are, and not avoid an engagement you're not exactly the best scout to begin with..."
I assume you mean ", and avoid an engagement"
to which I say,
LOL
You believe it's the job of a scout not to fight. No no, we're totally stealthy and have these weapons and grenades and we're not going to assassinate something.
Also at 25 hp/s it would take 8 seconds, 8 seconds of having 160>shields assuming calscout. As a gallente I couldn't give a crud about shield recharge but the principle is at state.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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gustavo acosta
Tharumec
104
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Posted - 2014.07.01 06:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:gustavo acosta wrote:
If you're able to see where almost all your enemies are, and not avoid an engagement, you're not exactly the best scout to begin with...And about the whole recharge rate, no one said anything about changing the delays, just the values, I mean c'mon if you're an e-war scout 25hp/s should be more than enough regen for you to not die after the regular delay, if you do get caught(as long as you're not tanking...)
Your statement needs clarifying "If you're able to see where almost all your enemies are, and not avoid an engagement you're not exactly the best scout to begin with..." I assume you mean ", and avoid an engagement" to which I say, LOL You believe it's the job of a scout not to fight. No no, we're totally stealthy and have these weapons and grenades and we're not going to assassinate something. Also at 25 hp/s it would take 8 seconds, 8 seconds of having 160>shields assuming calscout. As a gallente I couldn't give a crud about shield recharge but the principle is at state.
Eh, can't be perfect at writing all the time. Anyway, I never said scouts aren't supposed to fight. A good E-war scout, or anybody else with common sense, would be able to assess the situation and not attack anyone that they weren't 100% sure
would die before they could retaliate(i.e. stealth kill)
I think you mean the principle is at *stake not at state. And said principle is just a state of mind, if I only have 1 hp on my suit a .1hp/s regeneration rate is considered a lot to me...
Gallente scout, heavy, logi, and assault
can't touch my post nerfed flaylock sun....
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Lynn Beck
EnvyUs.
1979
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Posted - 2014.07.01 06:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Exactly. Scouts are (supposed to be) assassins/saboteurs/rogues.
They attack on THEIR terms. If there's 5 people in a room and they're all looking at each door way, are you SERIOUSLY going to knife the one guy calling in an orbital?
You might be able to run in fast enough to kill your target, but escaping intact would be a matter of god, and even then, having half the shield recharge would be inconsequential, as you should be spamming that GTFO/NOPE button pretty damned hard.
As for armor tanking, at base stats, i feel the Galscout is fine, even stacking plates, it's more or less necessary to have a rep with it, or else you'll be spending 3 minutes regebning that armor.
It's moreso the fact that the GalAssault has less reps, yet is expected to attack more. ...but it has less regen, and the same low slot count... And less shield(buffer) recharge... And a bigger hitbox.... And tey're blind.... And they're slower....
So yeah. See the reasoning here?
Yes, scouts should (and will) still regen just fine if this 'nerf' pulls through, as the non-slayer fits will be low enough HP that they're still comin back from an attack faster than an assault.
It's just that an assault will be able to attack for longer, and return (slightly) later, but be able to attack AGAIN, at full HP.
General John Ripper
-BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse.
This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
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Racro 01 Arifistan
501st Knights of Leanbox
370
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Posted - 2014.07.01 06:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
iam constalty playing as a gallente assault suit. personally I see nothing wrong with it..
I don't like playing heavies but I tend to engage them outside their optimal with an assault rifle which has its optimal BARLEY outside the hmg's effective.
I play as gallente scout. however I don't brick tank it I run two profle damps with 2 kin cats and proto shotty. it does a good job at assignation and SCOUTING. but even when brick tanked lacks the hp to enegage vehicles. namely tanks and also lacks the hgihs for double damage mods plus a + precision enhancement to see cherrys.
now as for my beloved gallente assault suit......IT IS A BEAST.
when equipped with a plasma rifle. namely the breach it absolutely shreds targets and the ion pistol is a good choice for insta popping scouts.
it has not only the hp and re-gen to fight heavies but the slots to virtually do what ever I want.
I have both proto swarms and plasma cannons. (gallente assult bonus actually affects the plc. as it dosnt kick up as much while aiming form the hip allowing for better arcs.)
the reduced kick/dispersion from hip-fire allows for much better damage application with plasma rifles/shotguns/ion pistols.
and when fitted with armour repairs can saf;ley regen whithout logi support.
as for the ammarr assult which I have played around with its virtually the same. minus the re-gen. but has a higher hp ceilng and close to never ending laser streams.
personally I think assaults are fine. but could use a slight touch up on the ewar perspective and VERY slight increase to base hp. say an extra 50 shield and armour allround to each medium frame/assault/logi suit. then it would be in a very good spot.
Elite Gallenten Soldier
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Racro 01 Arifistan
501st Knights of Leanbox
370
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Posted - 2014.07.01 06:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:Mortedeamor wrote:yes but dust doesnt follow this formula light frame have high hp A medium frame haz more [/discussion] for an extra 200 hp, you are slower, highly scannable, cant detect anything without equipment, cant fit all proto weaponry or decent equipment and you basically become a waddling target. tell me how this makes sense, that a scout can do almost the same amount of tanking and not have any of the drawbacks.
my assult gk.o says other wise.
I run both proto ar/ion pistol as well as dual complex reps. and it dose fairly well for its self with 504 armour with 20.75 armour a second.
Elite Gallenten Soldier
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Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3942
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Posted - 2014.07.01 07:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
gustavo acosta wrote:
Eh, can't be perfect at writing all the time. Anyway, I never said scouts aren't supposed to fight. A good E-war scout, or anybody else with common sense, would be able to assess the situation and not attack anyone that they weren't 100% sure
would die before they could retaliate(i.e. stealth kill)
.
I'm never 100% sure that anything can die before they can retaliate and neither should anyone considering lag, HP, crazy hit detection, etc.. Stealth kills only apply to OHK weapons and if you're like me and you don't have OHK weapons then you need to rely on the regenerative defenses of the suit.
Also my radar does not distinguish between heavies and mediums and lights so it's kind of hard to know if they can die quickly. Assessing situations requires eye-sight and if I can see them they can see me thus my cover is blown. 
I rely on the QUICK regenerative abilities to survive fights, not the PROPORTIONALLY AVERAGE regenerative abilities to survive fights. When you don't have a lot of HP every second matters, thus a regen nerf is a nerf on eWar scouts. Also, like I have said earlier, if you want a suit with good regen, you choose the light frame. You don't pick the medium frame and then try and change the medium frame to not be medium.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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