DUST Search - [Feedback] FW payouts need a hotfix

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

When 1.7's FW system came out, I made this thread which then got ignored for 6 months, but now that the messiah Rattati has emerged, there is now some chance of feedback actually being taken into consideration.

[Comparison]

A purely ISK-bought standard fitting:

STD Minmatar logistics

2X basic shield extended

Basic armor plate

Basic armor repair module

STD mass driver

STD RE

STD active scanner

STD repair tool

Cost: 11,850 ISK

Now the same standard fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal):

STD Minmatar logistics

2X basic shield extended

Basic armor plate

Basic armor repair module

STD mass driver

STD RE

STD active scanner

STD repair tool

Cost: 200 LP (140 Republic / 60 Federal)

____________________________________________________________________________________________

A purely ISK-bought prototype fitting:

scout mk.0

Freedom mass driver

Six Kin SMG

Complex shield extender

Complex shield recharger

Complex sidearm damage mod

Complex armor rep

Complex armor plate

Complex codebreaker

Cost: 155,760 ISK

Now the same prototype fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal):

Republic scout mk.0

Republic Freedom mass driver

Republic Six Kin SMG

Republic complex shield extender

Republic complex shield recharger

Republic complex sidearm damage mod

Federation complex armor rep

Federation complex armor plate

Federation complex codebreaker

Cost: 805 LP (580 Republic / 225 Federal)

____________________________________________________________________________________________

[Problem]
ISK rewards of public contracts on average range from 70-400K ISK depending on your performance; this is not exact, but based on experience. 70k represents absolute laziness (like AFK farming), and 400k represents performing extremely well.

With the ISK rewards you can buy between 05.91-33.76 full fits of the STD ISK fitting.

With the ISK rewards you can buy between 00.45-02.57 full fits of the PRO ISK fitting.

LP rewards of FW contracts on average range from 326-659 LP depending on your standing. This is based on these numbers released by CCP.

With the LP rewards you can buy between 01.63-03.30 full fits (depending on standing) of the PRO LP fitting.

With the LP rewards you can buy between 00.41-00.82 full fits (depending on standing) of the PRO LP fitting.

See any problem with that? ISK rewards let you buy 6-33 standard fits, or 1/2-2 prototype. LP rewards even for a victory with level 10 standing can only buy you 3 equivalent standard, or less than 1 equivalent prototype fits. The very best FW rewards are still awful compared to the very worst public Skirmish reward. LP rewards comparatively suck for buying low tier stuff, and sucks for buying high tier stuff as well.

No player market will eve be coming for Dust, so the whole "you will be able to profit from FW by selling LP items" argument is completely dead. Even if you could sell LP items you bought, items bought with a level 10 standing victory LP reward would have to be priced around 6 that of ISK-bought equivalents just to match the rewards of an average Skirmish (I covered why 6x it in the original thread I linked).

[Solution]
FW is high risk: practically no pay for losses, no standings gain for losses, and friendly fire. High risk should come with high reward. If a loss is worth close to nothing, a victory should be almost equivalent to twice the average Skirmish payout. This could be done by
A) Increase both victory and defeat LP rewards by 5x. This would mean that a victory with 0 standing to buy 8 STD fits (for comparison, ISK rewards buy 6-33 STD fits), this would make it at least better than AFK farming in a public Skirmish. With a level 10 standings victory, you could buy around 4 PRO fits (for comparison, ISK rewards buy over 2 PRO fits).
B) add the same (or reduced) public battle ISK rewards to FW in addition to LP rewards.

Why should high risk come with lower rewards?

[Somewhat related]

LP store is lacking a ton of stuff: Caldari scout, Cal sentinel, Cal commando, magsec, bolt pistol. Minmatar scout, Min sentinel, Min commando, standard and advanced combat rifles. Gallente sentinel, Gal commando, ion pistol. Amarr scout. Some weapons have both a PRO specialist and less expensive non-specialist variants (SCR), while others only have the expensive specialist variant as an option (AR); all PRO LP weapons should have both a specialist and a non-specialist version.

Imperial commando AK.0 still has a sidearm in addition to the 2 light weapon slots. No other prototype LP suit has this extra advantage over regular ISK proto, so I assume this is unintentional.

Thank you for reading.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2559	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:25:00 - [1] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: When 1.7's FW system came out, I made this thread which then got ignored for 6 months, but now that the messiah Rattati has emerged, there is now some chance of feedback actually being taken into consideration. [Comparison] A purely ISK-bought standard fitting: STD Minmatar logistics 2X basic shield extended Basic armor plate Basic armor repair module STD mass driver STD RE STD active scanner STD repair tool Cost: 11,850 ISK Now the same standard fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal): STD Minmatar logistics 2X basic shield extended Basic armor plate Basic armor repair module STD mass driver STD RE STD active scanner STD repair tool Cost: 200 LP (140 Republic / 60 Federal) ____________________________________________________________________________________________ A purely ISK-bought prototype fitting: scout mk.0 Freedom mass driver Six Kin SMG Complex shield extender Complex shield recharger Complex sidearm damage mod Complex armor rep Complex armor plate Complex codebreaker Cost: 155,760 ISK Now the same prototype fitting in pure LP-bought faction store items (republic and federal): Republic scout mk.0 Republic Freedom mass driver Republic Six Kin SMG Republic complex shield extender Republic complex shield recharger Republic complex sidearm damage mod Federation complex armor rep Federation complex armor plate Federation complex codebreaker Cost: 805 LP (580 Republic / 225 Federal) ____________________________________________________________________________________________ [Problem] ISK rewards of public contracts on average range from 70-400K ISK depending on your performance; this is not exact, but based on experience. 70k represents absolute laziness (like AFK farming), and 400k represents performing extremely well. With the ISK rewards you can buy between 05.91-33.76 full fits of the STD ISK fitting. With the ISK rewards you can buy between 00.45-02.57 full fits of the PRO ISK fitting. LP rewards of FW contracts on average range from 326-659 LP depending on your standing. This is based on these numbers released by CCP. With the LP rewards you can buy between 01.63-03.30 full fits (depending on standing) of the PRO LP fitting. With the LP rewards you can buy between 00.41-00.82 full fits (depending on standing) of the PRO LP fitting. See any problem with that? ISK rewards let you buy 6-33 standard fits, or 1/2-2 prototype. LP rewards even for a victory with level 10 standing can only buy you 3 equivalent standard, or less than 1 equivalent prototype fits. The very best FW rewards are still awful compared to the very worst public Skirmish reward. LP rewards comparatively suck for buying low tier stuff, and sucks for buying high tier stuff as well. No player market will eve be coming for Dust, so the whole "you will be able to profit from FW by selling LP items" argument is completely dead. Even if you could sell LP items you bought, items bought with a level 10 standing victory LP reward would have to be priced around 6 that of ISK-bought equivalents just to match the rewards of an average Skirmish (I covered why 6x it in the original thread I linked). [Solution] FW is high risk: practically no pay for losses, no standings gain for losses, and friendly fire. High risk should come with high reward. If a loss is worth close to nothing, a victory should be almost equivalent to twice the average Skirmish payout. This could be done by A) Increase both victory and defeat LP rewards by 5x. This would mean that a victory with 0 standing to buy 8 STD fits (for comparison, ISK rewards buy 6-33 STD fits), this would make it at least better than AFK farming in a public Skirmish. With a level 10 standings victory, you could buy around 4 PRO fits (for comparison, ISK rewards buy over 2 PRO fits). B) add the same (or reduced) public battle ISK rewards to FW in addition to LP rewards. Why should high risk come with lower rewards? [Somewhat related] LP store is lacking a ton of stuff: Caldari scout, Cal sentinel, Cal commando, magsec, bolt pistol. Minmatar scout, Min sentinel, Min commando, standard and advanced combat rifles. Gallente sentinel, Gal commando, ion pistol. Amarr scout. Some weapons have both a PRO specialist and less expensive non-specialist variants (SCR), while others only have the expensive specialist variant as an option (AR); all PRO LP weapons should have both a specialist and a non-specialist version. Imperial commando AK.0 still has a sidearm in addition to the 2 light weapon slots. No other prototype LP suit has this extra advantage over regular ISK proto, so I assume this is unintentional. Thank you for reading. On point as usual, +1 Risk vs Reward is key to game wide balance, maintaining this within payouts then, is all the more vital as disparities here can more readily have a ripple effect into other aspects of the game. 0.02 ISK Cross Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2561	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:30:00 - [2] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: Taipaen wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. This might be beyond what can be done in a hotfix, but I'd like to see a Loyalty Point bonus for actually using dropsuits of the side you are fighting for. The game currently tracks your most used dropsuit for each battle and reports this to the player with the rest of the stats. Could this already collected data be used to give a small LP boost if, for example, a merc fighting for Gal has a Gal suit equipped for most of the battle? Currently FW has us facing a random spread of fits just like in Pub matches... which takes away any real feeling of it being, well, factional. This would also give more meaningful weapon choice since if you are entering a battle vs the Cal, you're more likely to encounter Cal dropsuits and can thus fit weapons with bonus damage vs shields. I only have Minmatar Suits. What if I want to aid the Gallente? Would the bonus apply to allies? What if I were to use your race's militia suit? Would that constitute? Loving the discussion so far. I feel FW should get Isk, but only around 10,000, something so you can pay a little for FW gear. Although I get the grinding in pubs and everything. And CCP Rattati, the FW Store MUST have the gear. Tell us how hard it is. It has to happen. I already have all the Minmatar Suits that are in the store. Why exactly can't I get a heavy? I believe CCP Rattati has stated that full LP store offerings are on the list. However if memory serves that was before the hotfix cycle began in earnest so it would be great to get a general update on where that stands. Cheers, Cross Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2561	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:32:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Read, and agree that FW rewards need to be better than public matches due to higher risk. Don't forget to add all the missing dropsuits and what not. Kind of a pain fighting for Gallente with no option to buy Commando suits Much bigger effort. I propose we increase rewards and see if participation in FW increases. Fully agree that the lower cost fix (increasing rewards) should be foremost on the list. That being said making sure the full array of missing items does indeed make it into the game remains important, in my view, regardless of the improvements seen from the rewards increase. But by all means, focus on the most actionable items first. 0.02 ISK Cross EDIT: TPLAK Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2561	Posted - 2014.07.09 01:37:00 - [4] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: Cool beans :) My question...does anyone know how to do Spreadsheets. I'll do them (I'm a 16 year old with Summer Vacation ahead and days left alone), but I need a general basis to start. Any thing people want me to do? I'd hit up Pokey Dravon or Soraya Xel for that, they've both got spreadsheet chops. Vote Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate