DUST Search - Should the Best Counter for Something be Itself?

Izlare Lenix wrote:

Yokal Bob wrote:

Izlare Lenix wrote:

Absolutely not.

This is the current issue with HMG heavies. While there are a few ways to counter an hmg heavy, the most effective and often most successful is with another hmg heavy.

And this IS the problem with Red Line snipers. As it stands now the ONLY counter that does not involve a suicide risk is your own sniper rifle. And on some maps a thales can get so far back you can't even really get a DS to them with enough time to kill them before you suicide.

Red line rail tanks exploited this BS mechanic for only a few months before CCP nerfed the rail range, forcing rail tanks into the battlefield to really be effective. Yet snipers have been exploiting the red line for almost two years and CCP has done nothing about them.

And with the rail turret and forge gun range reduction, your own sniper rifle or a suicide attempt is the only way to stop these pussies hiding in their red line.

Should i be suprised you havn't added the scout spam to this list? it fills all roles on the battlefield currently.

I'm not even sure what you are saying since the only thing you need to counter a scout most of the time is a working pair of eyes. Pretty much every weapon/suit combo can kill a scout if you use your eyes to find them.

And now with all the brick fit wanna be scouts running around they are even easier to kill because they are easier to see/scan.

Lastly, the scout spam is already being replaced with hmg heavy spam. I get killed three of four times now by an hmg for every time a cloaked shotgun kills me.

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Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 662	Posted - 2014.06.27 19:08:00 - [1] - Quote The question is in the title, Id like to see what people think. Votes for yes: II Votes for no: "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15632	Posted - 2014.06.27 19:15:00 - [2] - Quote No this is bad counterplay. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14972	Posted - 2014.06.27 19:15:00 - [3] - Quote No. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Atiim NoGameNoLife 9912	Posted - 2014.06.27 19:29:00 - [4] - Quote No. If the best counter for something is itself, then it creates a situation where in order to not lose/die to it, you have to become it yourself, or become non-viable when it is fielded. Nobody in their right mind would allow themselves to constantly die to something they don't have a chance at countering, so they'd obviously become [it] themselves. This not only creates a "FoTM", but also serves to kill the diversity that DUST 514 is supposed to thrive on as well. The vast majority of players (at least, from what I've seen) who believe otherwise are Sentinels or Vehicle Pilots who believe as if they shouldn't be killed by a single player, as they don't wish to make the possibility of being out-played by someone a reality. NoLifing DUST for the Officer Swarm Launcher. "Many things in life are subjective, morality is one of them..." -HAND
Izlare Lenix BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 740	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:31:00 - [5] - Quote Absolutely not. This is the current issue with HMG heavies. While there are a few ways to counter an hmg heavy, the most effective and often most successful is with another hmg heavy. And this IS the problem with Red Line snipers. As it stands now the ONLY counter that does not involve a suicide risk is your own sniper rifle. And on some maps a thales can get so far back you can't even really get a DS to them with enough time to kill them before you suicide. Red line rail tanks exploited this BS mechanic for only a few months before CCP nerfed the rail range, forcing rail tanks into the battlefield to really be effective. Yet snipers have been exploiting the red line for almost two years and CCP has done nothing about them. And with the rail turret and forge gun range reduction, your own sniper rifle or a suicide attempt is the only way to stop these pussies hiding in their red line. @ Arkena and Atim. Why are you saying countering something with itself is not ok, when earlier today on my "I hate snipers thread" you both seemed fine with snipers shooting my face off when snipers are the most obvious example of this broken mechanic where an item is needed to counter itself? Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 984	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:35:00 - [6] - Quote I've been saying that nothing should be the best counter to itself since the Forge gun debacle of yore. I am a minotaur.
Yokal Bob NoGameNoLife 495	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:35:00 - [7] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Absolutely not. This is the current issue with HMG heavies. While there are a few ways to counter an hmg heavy, the most effective and often most successful is with another hmg heavy. And this IS the problem with Red Line snipers. As it stands now the ONLY counter that does not involve a suicide risk is your own sniper rifle. And on some maps a thales can get so far back you can't even really get a DS to them with enough time to kill them before you suicide. Red line rail tanks exploited this BS mechanic for only a few months before CCP nerfed the rail range, forcing rail tanks into the battlefield to really be effective. Yet snipers have been exploiting the red line for almost two years and CCP has done nothing about them. And with the rail turret and forge gun range reduction, your own sniper rifle or a suicide attempt is the only way to stop these pussies hiding in their red line. Should i be suprised you havn't added the scout spam to this list? it fills all roles on the battlefield currently. If its not anime, its not real
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 3055	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:36:00 - [8] - Quote Terrible idea
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14984	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:37:00 - [9] - Quote everyone votes against the idea OP edits three votes in for yes and none for no ??? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 666	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:38:00 - [10] - Quote Id also like to add something else to what I want to see with your opinion on the matter: What weapons/suits/mechanics do you feel are currently only counter able by themselves? ex. No. An example of something being its best counter is scouts, as the caldari scout has the best scanning in the game. "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill

Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 666	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:39:00 - [11] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: everyone votes against the idea OP edits three votes in for yes and none for no ??? Oops i thought i was putting in votes for no EDIT: I fixed the OP "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 666	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:44:00 - [12] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: I've been saying that nothing should be the best counter to itself since the Forge gun debacle of yore. So was the forge gun an example of aforementioned counter-play? "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
Gooseman Manwhore CREATURES OF THE NIGHT 75	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:46:00 - [13] - Quote This is why I talk to myself. If it gets to fists, then I did something right. I put the sexi in dyslexia
Izlare Lenix BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo 741	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:47:00 - [14] - Quote Yokal Bob wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: Absolutely not. This is the current issue with HMG heavies. While there are a few ways to counter an hmg heavy, the most effective and often most successful is with another hmg heavy. And this IS the problem with Red Line snipers. As it stands now the ONLY counter that does not involve a suicide risk is your own sniper rifle. And on some maps a thales can get so far back you can't even really get a DS to them with enough time to kill them before you suicide. Red line rail tanks exploited this BS mechanic for only a few months before CCP nerfed the rail range, forcing rail tanks into the battlefield to really be effective. Yet snipers have been exploiting the red line for almost two years and CCP has done nothing about them. And with the rail turret and forge gun range reduction, your own sniper rifle or a suicide attempt is the only way to stop these pussies hiding in their red line. Should i be suprised you havn't added the scout spam to this list? it fills all roles on the battlefield currently. I'm not even sure what you are saying since the only thing you need to counter a scout most of the time is a working pair of eyes. Pretty much every weapon/suit combo can kill a scout if you use your eyes to find them. And now with all the brick fit wanna be scouts running around they are even easier to kill because they are easier to see/scan. Lastly, the scout spam is already being replaced with hmg heavy spam. I get killed three of four times now by an hmg for every time a cloaked shotgun kills me. Gun control is not about guns...it's about control. The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
Cody Sietz SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad. 3424	Posted - 2014.06.27 21:58:00 - [15] - Quote Nope. It's the problem we having with the Caldari Scout. It can only be scanned by itselfs. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Yokal Bob NoGameNoLife 495	Posted - 2014.06.27 22:01:00 - [16] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: Yokal Bob wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: Absolutely not. This is the current issue with HMG heavies. While there are a few ways to counter an hmg heavy, the most effective and often most successful is with another hmg heavy. And this IS the problem with Red Line snipers. As it stands now the ONLY counter that does not involve a suicide risk is your own sniper rifle. And on some maps a thales can get so far back you can't even really get a DS to them with enough time to kill them before you suicide. Red line rail tanks exploited this BS mechanic for only a few months before CCP nerfed the rail range, forcing rail tanks into the battlefield to really be effective. Yet snipers have been exploiting the red line for almost two years and CCP has done nothing about them. And with the rail turret and forge gun range reduction, your own sniper rifle or a suicide attempt is the only way to stop these pussies hiding in their red line. Should i be suprised you havn't added the scout spam to this list? it fills all roles on the battlefield currently. I'm not even sure what you are saying since the only thing you need to counter a scout most of the time is a working pair of eyes. Pretty much every weapon/suit combo can kill a scout if you use your eyes to find them. And now with all the brick fit wanna be scouts running around they are even easier to kill because they are easier to see/scan. Lastly, the scout spam is already being replaced with hmg heavy spam. I get killed three of four times now by an hmg for every time a cloaked shotgun kills me. But the same can be said for a heavy. they are even easier to spot and track. plus there is only a few maps been a heavy is actually viable for unless they are jolly jeep riders. the majority of the maps one can sit at range and pummel them with bullets pew pew pew pew. but im seeing more heavies with light weapons than heavy weapons now, heavy suits with rr and thales.... smh If its not anime, its not real
Mortedeamor NoGameNoLife 1670	Posted - 2014.06.27 23:10:00 - [17] - Quote no actually i define something as overpowered when the only counter is itself are heavies op///..no they can be countered with re's scout shotties or just good gun game is the lr op no it can br countered with the rr and vice versa are tanks op...u can counter them with themselves but they also have a direct effective counter in av so no they are not op i dont really think much in dust os op there are loads of counters to everything that exists.
Thurak1 Psygod9 790	Posted - 2014.06.27 23:15:00 - [18] - Quote NO If something can only be countered with itself its another indicator CCP does not test crap before putting it in game.
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 4048	Posted - 2014.06.27 23:46:00 - [19] - Quote The best counter is a flat one, so that if my beer tips over, I can properly lap up the spillage. PSN: The_Rynoceros Destiny beta SoonGäó Console Master Race
Scheneighnay McBob Cult of Gasai 5469	Posted - 2014.06.28 00:24:00 - [20] - Quote No. All those listed are the best counter to themselves, EXCEPT redline snipers. Why? Because you can't snipe into the enemy redline from your own redline, unless it's a tiny map and you have a Thale. (The Thale is reportedly going to be renamed to "Borat's 'sexy-time' Sniper Rifle" after the event is over pé¦pâ+pé¦pâ½pâäpâ¬pâ¦pé¦pâ¼pâ+pâêpü»sñ¬S+ïpéè

Onesimus Tarsus Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 2179	Posted - 2014.06.28 00:33:00 - [21] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: The question is in the title, Id like to see what people think. Also, please, if you answer no, list at least one (can be more) suits/mechanics/weapons that you feel has its/their best counter being its/their self Votes for no: IIIIIIIIII Votes for yes: Things that people have found has its best counter being itself: -HMG Heavies(2) -Redline Snipers(1) -HAV's(2) -ADS's(2) -Caldari Scouts(2) The best counter for the uncountered is to force them to counter other uncountered until someone feels quite countered. K/D(r) WP/D(r) matchmaking fixes the whole game. Period.
Derrith Erador 2163	Posted - 2014.06.28 00:34:00 - [22] - Quote ADS's no. Redline snipers yes. HMG heavies, yes, but RE's also work. Betty White, the worlds hottest grandma.
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 672	Posted - 2014.06.28 01:34:00 - [23] - Quote Also, if you posted earlier and didn't add what you thought had its best counter being itself, please just make a new post instead of editing "Goddamn it! I have to take out my plasma cannon to kill him cause I can't kill him with my flay lock!" -Buzz Kill
Atiim EnvyUs. 9955	Posted - 2014.06.28 17:28:00 - [24] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: @ Arkena and Atim. Why are you saying countering something with itself is not ok, when earlier today on my "I hate snipers thread" you both seemed fine with snipers shooting my face off when snipers are the most obvious example of this broken mechanic where an item is needed to counter itself? I'm not okay with Redline Snipers being the best counter to another redline Sniper. Taking Care of The Pilot Infestation in North American Skirmish -HAND
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1537	Posted - 2014.06.28 18:11:00 - [25] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: The question is in the title, Id like to see what people think. Also, please, if you answer no, list at least one (can be more) suits/mechanics/weapons that you feel has its/their best counter being its/their self Votes for no: IIIIIIIIII Votes for yes: Things that people have found has its best counter being itself: -HMG Heavies(3) -Redline Snipers(2) -HAV's(2) -ADS's(2) -Caldari Scouts(2) All I see right now is the same HMG QQ with different words SMH... In the OFF chance this is a legitimate discussion then no nothing should be it's own best counter, with an example being redline snipers/rails Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Tectonic Fusion 1793	Posted - 2014.06.28 18:22:00 - [26] - Quote All I know is skill > noob. That is all.
XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings Proficiency V. 1634	Posted - 2014.06.28 18:23:00 - [27] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: The question is in the title, Id like to see what people think. Also, please, if you answer no, list at least one (can be more) suits/mechanics/weapons that you feel has its/their best counter being its/their self Votes for no: IIIIIIIIII Votes for yes: Things that people have found has its best counter being itself: -HMG Heavies(3) -Redline Snipers(2) -HAV's(2) -ADS's(2) -Caldari Scouts(2) I disagree with all these points except the red line snipers. HMG heavies can be killed from range, with remotes, and with PLC HAV can be killed by a team of two AV ADS python can be killed in the same fashion ADS incubus takes full swarm damage now 80/120 and is counterable What does not have a counter however is matchmaking. Most of the problems with these mechanics come from matchmaking itself since it creates incredibly lopsided matches. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 253	Posted - 2014.06.28 18:27:00 - [28] - Quote Atiim wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: @ Arkena and Atim. Why are you saying countering something with itself is not ok, when earlier today on my "I hate snipers thread" you both seemed fine with snipers shooting my face off when snipers are the most obvious example of this broken mechanic where an item is needed to counter itself? I'm not okay with Redline Snipers being the best counter to another redline Sniper. If a sniper comes out of the redline then EVERYTHING can counter a sniper. So, as Atiim's earlier post stated, I then have to become like everybody else. If one infantryman can destroy my tank then why run a tank? I have to counter them by being like them, becoming what they are. So, it is ok to counter something with itselfGÇª I guess? THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 6236	Posted - 2014.06.28 18:29:00 - [29] - Quote lol at the heavies that said you have to fight fire with fire. They just want easy mode This Federation is now at war. We have no time for dissenters


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