DUST Search - Are damage mods increasing raw DPS or damage per bullet?

OP FOTM wrote:

I shouldn't have even brought up this argument. I stirred a hornet's nest.

You are both wrong. The Assault Rifle buff was only a 3% buff and I instantly felt it. This game is full of small percentages that make big differences.

If you are not using at least one damage mod on your Gallente, even Amarr or Minmatar you are missing out on a 5% damage bonus. That's the difference between zero weapon proficiency and level 2. Don't even try to tell me even the slightest damage increase on a weapon isn't worth it.

I believe complex shields are still 66 HP. That's one AR bullet, even with passive shield skill up to 5. I mean maybe now that they buffed Rechargers it might be worth it instead of 2 damage mods but, again, if you're not even putting ONE damage mod you're screwing yourself and you are going to be killed.

It depends on preference like most things in this game. But on the other hand most things in this game can be exploited with a specific method, and in this game DPS is as much of a defensive tactic as HP itself. You can't tell me that the top-tier players aren't even using a single damage mod on their non-Caldari suits. Caldari is the ONLY one that should be sacrificing damage mods for shield mods because it has the highest bonuses to shield HP. But you can't tell me that, especially on a Cal scout, that more HP instead of DPS is going to save you in every situation. I guarantee you, if you come at me with a Shotgun that's NOT doing as much DPS as possible, I'm going to melt through your shields. And that strafing thing rarely ever works on me, even with a Six Kin Burst.

I'm sorry but when I skill into Caldari Sentinel, I refuse to not even use a single damage mod. The math just speaks for itself.

Stefan Stahl wrote:

Player A has x HP and a damage mod, player B has x + 66 hp and no damage mod.
DPS before damage mod is 400, damage mod adds 5%.
Player A dies after x/400 seconds. Player B dies after (x+66)/420 seconds.
The point of equilibrium is where both TTKs are identical. By the powers of linear algebra I conclude:
x = 66 * 400/20 = 1320 hp

You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

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OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 0	Posted - 2014.06.23 20:14:00 - [1] - Quote I was doing the math, and I believe increasing the actual DPS value gives a smaller output than increasing the damage per bullet. Forgive me if my math is completely wrong: DPS = damage * RPM / 60 This is what happens when you increase the DPS value with one complex damage mod (1.05): DPS = d * RPM / 63 ---> Edited wrong number And what happens when you increase the "d" value: DPS = d * RPM / 57.143 So, if you can follow my logic here, 1/63 is a smaller number than 1/57, so it makes quite a large difference and it would be useful to know which value is actually multiplied by 1.05 when you use a complex damage mod. I was also wondering if higher RPM weapons are increased better by damage mods than low RPM weapons but with my simplified math, it's easy to tell that it doesn't matter how much RPM the weapon has when the damage per bullet has already been changed by CCP to compensate: i.e, a combat rifle does ~30 damage per bullet while an assault rifle does ~70. But this could easily be a different story if the damage mod is somehow a multiplier of the RPM value itself. Yes, I have no life. Thoughts?
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14778	Posted - 2014.06.23 20:33:00 - [2] - Quote It simply increases the damage per bullet. As a result of this, the DPS increases. Rate of fire is unaffected, so RPM has no bearing on it. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15591	Posted - 2014.06.23 20:34:00 - [3] - Quote damage per 'bullet' CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1432	Posted - 2014.06.23 20:37:00 - [4] - Quote Pretty sure its the dmg per bullet. I don't think DPS as a variable even exists in the back-end nor do I see any reason why should be when increasing bullet damage yields more intuitive results. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 1	Posted - 2014.06.23 20:49:00 - [5] - Quote Cool, thanks. I would still prioritize using damage mods on higher DPS weapons, just like how many Logis will not even use them over shield modules, because they spend most of their time not even shooting. Although shield modules can be much more useful on Caldari dropsuits in general.
Tectonic Fusion 1759	Posted - 2014.06.23 21:04:00 - [6] - Quote Yeah...they were kinda worth it, but not better than shields, but since they were nerfed....don't use them unless you're a sniper. Even for forge guns...they just don't help unless you're fighting a dropship.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14780	Posted - 2014.06.23 21:05:00 - [7] - Quote OP FOTM wrote: I would still prioritize using damage mods on higher DPS weapons, just like how many Logis will not even use them over shield modules, because they spend most of their time not even shooting. Well... If we're looking at it mathematically, even if you're spending your time in actual combat the shield extender is more likely to do you more good than the damage mod. Unless you've got over 500 DPS and ~1200 HP it's not worth fitting a damage mod over a shield extender except for specific scenarios. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2014.06.24 04:44:00 - [8] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Yeah...they were kinda worth it, but not better than shields, but since they were nerfed....don't use them unless you're a sniper. Even for forge guns...they just don't help unless you're fighting a dropship. I'm sorry but you are wrong. I'm not even going to argue with you here, because you're just another one of those QQ people from back when the damage mods and rifle damages were nerfed. But I will say that tonight I heard someone in my alliance mention Caldari Sentinels with 5 damage mods using Breach FGs. Don't try to tell me that's not a scary thought. On the other hand, the same suit with 5 extenders will survive a direct hit from an enemy FG. I use two heavy mods on my Amarr Forger because I use Ishukone Assault and every bit of damage counts, which is why I use it in the first place because it does more DPS than the other kinds, and I make a point of being accurate. Arkena wrote: Unless you've got over 500 DPS and ~1200 HP it's not worth fitting a damage mod over a shield extender except for specific scenarios. I shouldn't have even brought up this argument. I stirred a hornet's nest. You are both wrong. The Assault Rifle buff was only a 3% buff and I instantly felt it. This game is full of small percentages that make big differences. If you are not using at least one damage mod on your Gallente, even Amarr or Minmatar you are missing out on a 5% damage bonus. That's the difference between zero weapon proficiency and level 2. Don't even try to tell me even the slightest damage increase on a weapon isn't worth it. I believe complex shields are still 66 HP. That's one AR bullet, even with passive shield skill up to 5. I mean maybe now that they buffed Rechargers it might be worth it instead of 2 damage mods but, again, if you're not even putting ONE damage mod you're screwing yourself and you are going to be killed. It depends on preference like most things in this game. But on the other hand most things in this game can be exploited with a specific method, and in this game DPS is as much of a defensive tactic as HP itself. You can't tell me that the top-tier players aren't even using a single damage mod on their non-Caldari suits. Caldari is the ONLY one that should be sacrificing damage mods for shield mods because it has the highest bonuses to shield HP. But you can't tell me that, especially on a Cal scout, that more HP instead of DPS is going to save you in every situation. I guarantee you, if you come at me with a Shotgun that's NOT doing as much DPS as possible, I'm going to melt through your shields. And that strafing thing rarely ever works on me, even with a Six Kin Burst. I'm sorry but when I skill into Caldari Sentinel, I refuse to not even use a single damage mod. The math just speaks for itself.
Venerable Phage Red Shirts Away Team 126	Posted - 2014.06.24 05:17:00 - [9] - Quote Damage mods on my stealth shotgun suits... This predates cloaks as they were designed around being stealthy hit and run... Supposed to be my training for NKs but shotguns are too much fun. 3 damage mods on my sniper rifle. Maybe one occasionally on other suits. It really depends on how much I'm relying on OHK to survive.
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1442	Posted - 2014.06.24 05:19:00 - [10] - Quote OP FOTM wrote: I shouldn't have even brought up this argument. I stirred a hornet's nest. You are both wrong. The Assault Rifle buff was only a 3% buff and I instantly felt it. This game is full of small percentages that make big differences. If you are not using at least one damage mod on your Gallente, even Amarr or Minmatar you are missing out on a 5% damage bonus. That's the difference between zero weapon proficiency and level 2. Don't even try to tell me even the slightest damage increase on a weapon isn't worth it. I believe complex shields are still 66 HP. That's one AR bullet, even with passive shield skill up to 5. I mean maybe now that they buffed Rechargers it might be worth it instead of 2 damage mods but, again, if you're not even putting ONE damage mod you're screwing yourself and you are going to be killed. It depends on preference like most things in this game. But on the other hand most things in this game can be exploited with a specific method, and in this game DPS is as much of a defensive tactic as HP itself. You can't tell me that the top-tier players aren't even using a single damage mod on their non-Caldari suits. Caldari is the ONLY one that should be sacrificing damage mods for shield mods because it has the highest bonuses to shield HP. But you can't tell me that, especially on a Cal scout, that more HP instead of DPS is going to save you in every situation. I guarantee you, if you come at me with a Shotgun that's NOT doing as much DPS as possible, I'm going to melt through your shields. And that strafing thing rarely ever works on me, even with a Six Kin Burst. I'm sorry but when I skill into Caldari Sentinel, I refuse to not even use a single damage mod. The math just speaks for itself. You are displaying an odd degree of certainty in your post, considering you started off this thread with a question about fundamental game mechanics, don't have any math to support your argument, mistake the damage of an AR bullet by twice its actual value and finally on the case of shotguns which clearly qualifies as a "specific scenario" like Arkena mentioned.(this is as far as I got before losing my patience. There's surely more where that came from) Here is some math looking at the question. Stefan Stahl wrote: Player A has x HP and a damage mod, player B has x + 66 hp and no damage mod. DPS before damage mod is 400, damage mod adds 5%. Player A dies after x/400 seconds. Player B dies after (x+66)/420 seconds. The point of equilibrium is where both TTKs are identical. By the powers of linear algebra I conclude: x = 66 * 400/20 = 1320 hp "The math just speaks for itself". Have at it. Just as a final remark. I can garanf*kingtee you Rattati could go around and adjust random weapon damage numbers by 2-3% without telling us and we wouldn't know unless someone actually sat down and did some insive* research. The swarm launcher did less than half its intended damage against DS and even that took Judge a while to realize and then prove conclusively. What you're experiencing is plain old confirmation bias. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 4	Posted - 2014.06.24 05:33:00 - [11] - Quote that's 400 DPS they're talking about. what the hell in this game even does less than 400 DPS besides the non-variant AR? sidearms? great argument bro. so basically people with bad gun game shouldn't use damage mods, because you might as well try to soak damage instead of actually trying to kill things. No kidding. Well, I'm still keeping my sidearm damage mod on my CQC forge gun fit, and I'm also still keeping at least one damage mod on my Logi.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy 1486	Posted - 2014.06.24 05:42:00 - [12] - Quote All I know is that my LR loves dmg mods and so do my HMG and ScR. Also dual tanking is a sin... Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
danie braz Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 51	Posted - 2014.06.24 05:48:00 - [13] - Quote OP FOTM wrote: You are both wrong. The Assault Rifle buff was only a 3% buff and I instantly felt it. This game is full of small percentages that make big differences. 1. 3% damage with a rpm bump 2. Said arkena us wrong.... [Grabs popcorn] Fluoride uranium carbon potassium bismuth technetium helium sulfur germanium thulium Molybdenum neon yttrium
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1443	Posted - 2014.06.24 05:50:00 - [14] - Quote OP FOTM wrote: that's 400 DPS they're talking about.[...] Then insert whatever DPS you think you're realistically doing. You are familiar with the concept of variables, right? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 4	Posted - 2014.06.24 05:51:00 - [15] - Quote Also, I thought about it a little more and realized the Rail Rifle has a "low DPS." But why would you want extra shields if your enemy isn't even engaging you when you start shooting him? So I suppose yeah, if you knew you were going to instantly take damage during every engagement you have, instead of surprising them, flanking them, or taking cover... then I GUESS shields would be more important. I guess the way I'm thinking is. Why shield tank when you can use situational awareness to avoid taking damage at all in the first place, and use the damage mods to enhance the elements of surprise and taking cover, etc?
Malkai Inos Any Given Day 1443	Posted - 2014.06.24 05:53:00 - [16] - Quote OP FOTM wrote: Also, I thought about it a little more and realized the Rail Rifle has a "low DPS." But why would you want extra shields if your enemy isn't even engaging you when you start shooting him? So I suppose yeah, if you knew you were going to instantly take damage during every engagement you have, instead of surprising them, flanking them, or taking cover... then I GUESS shields would be more important. I guess the way I'm thinking is. Why shield tank when you can use situational awareness to avoid taking damage at all in the first place, and use the damage mods to enhance the elements of surprise and taking cover, etc? If you can make it work. Absolutely. But it doesn't always work and some fits have to take constant, direct damage to do their job. That's where "situational awareness" becomes moot. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 4	Posted - 2014.06.24 06:14:00 - [17] - Quote ugh. i need to refresh my math skills like they told me to in community college... i don't understand why he's multiplying shield extenders by DPS divided by damage mod. **** it. I've made my point. When I've got my CQC forge fit out and a scout ambushes me, a shield extender instead of a sidearm mod would give me an extra split second (if at all because SG is shield based), but why would you do that if a sidearm mod would make every split second you apply DPS count for more? Shield only gives you a second to react, then it takes forever to recharge if you're not Caldari. A damage mod gives you a constant DPS advantage no matter what is happening as long as you're shooting the enemy.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14785	Posted - 2014.06.24 06:18:00 - [18] - Quote OP FOTM wrote: that's 400 DPS they're talking about. what the hell in this game even does less than 500 DPS besides the non-variant AR? sidearms? great argument bro. so basically people with bad gun game shouldn't use damage mods, because you might as well try to soak damage instead of actually trying to kill things. No kidding. Well, I'm still keeping my sidearm damage mod on my CQC forge gun fit, and I'm also still keeping at least one damage mod on my Logi. Let me give you a list of weapons that do less than 500 DPS. Assault Rifle Rail Rifle Breach Assault Rifle Assault Combat Rifle Assault Scrambler Rifle Mass Driver Sniper Rifle Laser Rifle (unless fired until close to overheat) Scrambler Pistol SMG Ion Pistol Bolt Pistol Flaylock Pistol Magsec SMG That is to say, every single weapon in the game bar the HMG, shotgun and semiautomatic/burst weapons which are highly unlikely to reach such high DPS values because most human beings can't tap the trigger fast enough. Quote: You are both wrong. The Assault Rifle buff was only a 3% buff and I instantly felt it. This game is full of small percentages that make big differences. Are you sure you felt the 3% damage buff or are you meaning the 3% buff plus the rate of fire increase? If it's the latter, then I understand - but that wasn't a 3% damage buff. In effect, that was around 10%, which is significant. If it's the former, then I have to applaud your ability to notice TTK so impeccably. After firing 33 bullets, the difference in TTK is one bullet. That is to say, after emptying half your clip into a target for at least a thousand damage, the extra damage you've done is equivalent to a single bullet, which at the time of the 3% buff would mean a difference of 0.08 seconds in TTK in the best case scenario. If you immediately felt the difference between the pre-damage buff AR and the post-buff AR then I'm pretty impressed with your impeccable timing ability, because that's completely negligible and a much shorter time than a human can realistically have any idea about. You're looking at the same differences for a damage mod. Quote: But I will say that tonight I heard someone in my alliance mention Caldari Sentinels with 5 damage mods using Breach FGs. Don't try to tell me that's not a scary thought. On the other hand, the same suit with 5 extenders will survive a direct hit from an enemy FG. It's not a scary thought. Partially because it's impossible as the CalSent only has 4 highs, and partially because those four damage mods (if at complex) will equate to something like a 13% damage bonus total because of stacking penalties. Chances are quite high that the damage bonus you have there won't even save you one shot. I would say that on the off chance it does save you a shot it's worth it - but hey, that's one of those 'specific situations' I mentioned. Quote: But you can't tell me that, especially on a Cal scout, that more HP instead of DPS is going to save you in every situation. I guarantee you, if you come at me with a Shotgun that's NOT doing as much DPS as possible, I'm going to melt through your shields. And that strafing thing rarely ever works on me, even with a Six Kin Burst. 'Every situation'? No. It will, however, prevent you from instantly being gibbed before you can alpha your targets with your shotgun. If you're using one damage mod you're looking at about a 15% chance to be saved one shot before killing a heavy. That'd be somewhat valuable -if- it happened, but the chances of that are quite small. It's more valuable to prevent yourself from getting instakilled by anything that looks at you strangely. If I went and asked the scouts in the 'scout registry', do you think they'd say they use damage mods or shield extenders more on their Calscouts? My point was that in a straight gunfight, a shield extender is worth more than a damage modifier. It's better in a 1v1. It's better when you get jumped. It's better unless your target has over 1000 HP at which point the difference would only be marginal. In short, for the majority of situations, except specific situations (which I pointed out originally), a shield extender is simply better. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.
OP FOTM Commando Perkone Caldari State 4	Posted - 2014.06.24 06:32:00 - [19] - Quote I thought they made the Breach do more than a Combat Rifle now if you land every bullet? ... if you're not talking about Proto here then facepalm... I guess I see what you're saying now. Maybe I should start trying a shield extender on my heavy and see if I can survive REs better. Should soak up around 80 of the damage. But honestly if you know you'll be hit by a shield-based weapon, like if you're afraid of shotguns like I am... the shield isn't going to help as much as you say it is. I'd definitely use it instead of a damage mod on a medium/light dropsuit if I wasn't going to specifically try and avoid damage, flank, and pick them off one by one. ... but I usually try to do the latter. I don't know, man.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14788	Posted - 2014.06.24 06:51:00 - [20] - Quote OP FOTM wrote: I thought they made the Breach do more than a Combat Rifle now if you land every bullet? ... if you're not talking about Proto here then facepalm... Unfortunately no, the CR still does a fair bit more DPS. STD, ADV, or PRO, it makes no difference - all of those weapons are under 500 DPS. Quote: I guess I see what you're saying now. Maybe I should start trying a shield extender on my heavy and see if I can survive REs better. Should soak up around 80 of the damage. Actually, it should soak up a fair bit more than 80 damage. One complex extender will give you 72 HP after skills. The inherent 20% explosive resistance on shields will take that up to something like 85. Then you can account for the blast resistance on sentinels, which can take you over 100 eHP against explosives. Quote: But honestly if you know you'll be hit by a shield-based weapon, like if you're afraid of shotguns like I am... the shield isn't going to help as much as you say it is. I'd definitely use it instead of a damage mod on a medium/light dropsuit if I wasn't going to specifically try and avoid damage, flank, and pick them off one by one. ... but I usually try to do the latter. I don't know, man. It's perfectly valid to try to use damage mods for flanking and tanking. My point was simply that it's suboptimal to fit a damage mod over a shield extender in most situations, even in flank/hank situations. If you're not getting hit, then damage mods don't really hurt you. But eventually you will get hit, and the reaction time or combat advantage that the shield extender gives you is, I feel, more valuable than a damage mod which has a relatively minor effect. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Polka will never die.



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