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Harpyja
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1909
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Posted - 2014.06.22 14:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm curious to see what would happen if the regular depleted shield recharge delay on vehicles is removed while the depleted recharge delay is increased by at least 50%.
I feel that since shield vehicles have lower HP ceilings than armor vehicles, it only makes sense that damage mitigation for shield vehicles should come from regeneration, while armor vehicles should rely on EHP for damage mitigation.
Low EHP should have high regeneration and vice versa. However, armor vehicles get better regeneration than shield. Their reps never get disrupted and even two basic heavy reps are comparable to a shield tank's recharge rate. On top of that they have higher base EHP. Sure, shield vehicles get free regeneration while armor has to spend slots to gain regeneration, but shield vehicles have to spend slots to gain HP while armor does not, so I think that balances out.
Armor vehicles can rep through small amounts of DPS while shield vehicles cannot because their recharge is disrupted. Armor vehicles can sit there and absorb that DPS, while shield vehicles are forced to run away at the slightest presence of DPS, otherwise their shield will slowly get chipped away.
Also, I'd like a skill that gives 5% to recharge rate per level to be comparable to armor's 5% to armor rep efficacy per level. I'd also like to see the return of shield recharge modules (both shield rechargers and power diagnostic units) as they'd be more useful now than in 1.6. 25% to at least 168 hp/s is a lot more useful than 25% to 22 hp/s.
I really want to see fits based on recharge viable instead of the current meta of stacking extenders and hardeners. I also want to see armor fits based on plates and hardeners instead of stacking reps, but I'm not an expert on armor to say anything on that.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
606
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Posted - 2014.06.22 15:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think Shield Boosters are supposed to make regen centered shield fittings more viable. However they seem comparatively useless.
A heavy shield booster replenishes 1900 hp, if I remember correctly. Congratulations, that's one damage amped railgun shot. A small shield booster replenishes 900 hp. Even with a hardener running that's not enough ehp to replenish the damage from one railgun shot.
Can we maybe come up with numbers that make shield boosters more attractive? Would that help shield vehicles? If so, should shield boosters grant a bigger shield injection, or have a reduced cooldown? Maybe have several pulses for a higher total hp replenished instead of the current single pulse?
My opinion is that somebody at CCP thought long and hard about why shields should have a recharge delay while armor vehicles should not. That's why that person came up with shield boosters. Maybe we should first confirm that the principle can't be fixed before we give up that mechanic. |
Harpyja
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1912
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Posted - 2014.06.22 15:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:I think Shield Boosters are supposed to make regen centered shield fittings more viable. However they seem comparatively useless.
A heavy shield booster replenishes 1900 hp, if I remember correctly. Congratulations, that's one damage amped railgun shot. A small shield booster replenishes 900 hp. Even with a hardener running that's not enough ehp to replenish the damage from one railgun shot.
Can we maybe come up with numbers that make shield boosters more attractive? Would that help shield vehicles? If so, should shield boosters grant a bigger shield injection, or have a reduced cooldown? Maybe have several pulses for a higher total hp replenished instead of the current single pulse?
My opinion is that somebody at CCP thought long and hard about why shields should have a recharge delay while armor vehicles should not. That's why that person came up with shield boosters. Maybe we should first confirm that the principle can't be fixed before we give up that mechanic.
Well if you're going for a fit based on regen, high alpha should be your natural weakness.
Now for boosters. I think their fitting costs are too much. They are essentially single-use (with a cooldown between uses) shield extenders that grant more HP. I think that the fact that they are active and are "single-use" while extenders can constantly get recharged balanced out the fact that they give more HP. I think it'd greatly benefit if their fitting costs are brought down to match extender costs.
Another problem with boosters is that they are bugged and people seem to have come to the conclusion that any damage that disrupts shield regen prevents the booster from working properly if that damage is taken during its one second active time. I don't know about that, as last I used one it worked under large blaster fire while it didn't work for me under large railgun fire (I tried activating it during the shots and in between the shots but it never seemed to work).
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
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"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1017
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Posted - 2014.06.22 16:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:I'm curious to see what would happen if the regular depleted shield recharge delay on vehicles is removed while the depleted recharge delay is increased by at least 50%.
I feel that since shield vehicles have lower HP ceilings than armor vehicles, it only makes sense that damage mitigation for shield vehicles should come from regeneration, while armor vehicles should rely on EHP for damage mitigation.
Low EHP should have high regeneration and vice versa. However, armor vehicles get better regeneration than shield. Their reps never get disrupted and even two basic heavy reps are comparable to a shield tank's recharge rate. On top of that they have higher base EHP. Sure, shield vehicles get free regeneration while armor has to spend slots to gain regeneration, but shield vehicles have to spend slots to gain HP while armor does not, so I think that balances out.
Armor vehicles can rep through small amounts of DPS while shield vehicles cannot because their recharge is disrupted. Armor vehicles can sit there and absorb that DPS, while shield vehicles are forced to run away at the slightest presence of DPS, otherwise their shield will slowly get chipped away.
Also, I'd like a skill that gives 5% to recharge rate per level to be comparable to armor's 5% to armor rep efficacy per level. I'd also like to see the return of shield recharge modules (both shield rechargers and power diagnostic units) as they'd be more useful now than in 1.6. 25% to at least 168 hp/s is a lot more useful than 25% to 22 hp/s.
I really want to see fits based on recharge viable instead of the current meta of stacking extenders and hardeners. I also want to see armor fits based on plates and hardeners instead of stacking reps, but I'm not an expert on armor to say anything on that.
Address the fact that a shield vehicle dual tanks (plates in the lows / reps) then we can talk. Shield vehicles are already, in my opinion, stronger than armor vehicles due to this fact.
Plus, considering my time as a forge gunner (haven't touched my tanks yet), armor is MUCH easier for me to forge gun and kill, as compared to the gunnlogi that seems to never die, via hardeners, maneuverability (agility), decent shield regen (it's not as bad as you make it out to be), and high CPU/PG values that allow for dual tanking.
And plates and hardeners?? Why? Do you want to further cripple armor tanks!
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1654
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Posted - 2014.06.22 16:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree but only if the applies strictly to shield vehicles. Armor must still have a regular recharge delay.
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Harpyja
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1914
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Posted - 2014.06.22 17:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tebu Gan wrote:Harpyja wrote:I'm curious to see what would happen if the regular depleted shield recharge delay on vehicles is removed while the depleted recharge delay is increased by at least 50%.
I feel that since shield vehicles have lower HP ceilings than armor vehicles, it only makes sense that damage mitigation for shield vehicles should come from regeneration, while armor vehicles should rely on EHP for damage mitigation.
Low EHP should have high regeneration and vice versa. However, armor vehicles get better regeneration than shield. Their reps never get disrupted and even two basic heavy reps are comparable to a shield tank's recharge rate. On top of that they have higher base EHP. Sure, shield vehicles get free regeneration while armor has to spend slots to gain regeneration, but shield vehicles have to spend slots to gain HP while armor does not, so I think that balances out.
Armor vehicles can rep through small amounts of DPS while shield vehicles cannot because their recharge is disrupted. Armor vehicles can sit there and absorb that DPS, while shield vehicles are forced to run away at the slightest presence of DPS, otherwise their shield will slowly get chipped away.
Also, I'd like a skill that gives 5% to recharge rate per level to be comparable to armor's 5% to armor rep efficacy per level. I'd also like to see the return of shield recharge modules (both shield rechargers and power diagnostic units) as they'd be more useful now than in 1.6. 25% to at least 168 hp/s is a lot more useful than 25% to 22 hp/s.
I really want to see fits based on recharge viable instead of the current meta of stacking extenders and hardeners. I also want to see armor fits based on plates and hardeners instead of stacking reps, but I'm not an expert on armor to say anything on that. Address the fact that a shield vehicle dual tanks (plates in the lows / reps) then we can talk. Shield vehicles are already, in my opinion, stronger than armor vehicles due to this fact. Plus, considering my time as a forge gunner (haven't touched my tanks yet), armor is MUCH easier for me to forge gun and kill, as compared to the gunnlogi that seems to never die, via hardeners, maneuverability (agility), decent shield regen (it's not as bad as you make it out to be), and high CPU/PG values that allow for dual tanking. And plates and hardeners?? Why? Do you want to further cripple armor tanks!
Not every shield vehicle dual tanks. My Gunnlogi after XT-201 missiles, two 20GJ particle accelerators, and complex high modules barely has any fitting left. It's only enough for some chassis upgrades which require minimal amounts of CPU which also probably won't make a return for a while. Just because some dual tank doesn't mean everyone's else needs to suffer. Also let them dual tank! They sacrifice shield for armor! Just because it's a shield tank doesn't mean armor modules cost zero fitting.
The reason you're able to kill armor tanks better is because they are fit for regen while shield tanks are fit for HP. I'm sure it'd be the other way around if armor tanks fit for HP and shield fit for regen. Also your forge gun is bonused against armor.
You didn't understand my point of having armor tanks fit plates and/or hardeners. They need to be tweaked to become more appealing than they are currently. Armor's main defense should be in having high amounts of HP that regen slowly. I could easily imagine a Madrugar with 7000+ armor with 125 armor/sec and a hardener. That should be viable. All I'm saying is that armor vehicles with one armor rep should be viable and shield vehicles without extenders should also be viable.
I know you want variety. Here's variety. Regen or EHP tanking for both shield and armor vehicles? Because currently most of what I see on the field are EHP tanked shield vehicles and regen tanked armor vehicles. Armor vehicles prefer reps because of their high base armor and shield vehicles prefer extenders due to their low base shield. The end result is that there is little variety.
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
--
"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Harpyja
Legio DXIV
1921
|
Posted - 2014.06.24 02:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bump
"By His light, and His will"- The Scriptures, 12:32
--
"Scouts should fart repeatedly while cloaked"- TechMechMeds
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
Psychotic Alliance
1382
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Posted - 2014.06.24 04:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Also, change the depleted delay skill to like 3% resistance per level, or something Thats actually worth taking levels in.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11078
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Posted - 2014.06.24 04:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Also, change the depleted delay skill to like 3% resistance per level, or something Thats actually worth taking levels in.
No Vehicle should have a skill that directly increases their resistances...however skills that increase by a percentage the resistances supplied by resistance based modules is entirely different.
Actually in EVE I believe the armour and Shield Compensation skills only apply to the Adaptive Platings and Ward Fields.
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3741
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Posted - 2014.06.24 07:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm not a fan of a skill to boost passive regen; unlike armour vehicles we don't need to fit a repper to benefit. I would like regeneration mods added, however (preferably low slot!)
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5
CalLogi, you're next!
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1017
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Posted - 2014.06.24 13:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
I had this big long reply drafted up, but not it is lost. Stepped away for a second and came back and that **** was gone. Sad.
The jist though was that even if you CHOOSE not to dual tank, it doesn't make it any less OP in comparison to the maddie, or how effective the gunnlogi is against AV. Nothing about ruining it for everyone else, it's there, and just because you have "morals" that prevent you from using it, doesn't mean others won't. It's the strongest way to fit your gunnlogi, sorry.
And armor tanks already have a hard time fitting ANYTHING as it is. Gunnlogi can fit, hardeners, speed mod, plate and rep, while having better agility, acceleration, and a larger buffer (shields) and regeneration to it, while maintaining a decent pool in the armor. Long sentance I know.
Fact is, armor has taken a huge hit and it still hasnt addressed some other glaring area's, like CPU. It's funny that your missile fit there has 2 pro guns with a pro turret and still manages to fit for shield tank. For a maddie, that is impossible without sacrificing tank, heavily.
And no, armor tanks are not always fit for regen. I know well the difference, and have come against those I suspect are running triple reps still. They are the hardest to take down, while any armor tank light on reps but strong in HP will still fall in 4 shots with maybe an AV nade thrown in there.
Dunno what kind of tanks you have been seeing, but the ones I've seen are all fit rather differently. Aside from shield tanks that are either glass cannons or dual tanked.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz
General Tso's Alliance
1017
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Posted - 2014.06.24 19:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
I have some fittings I want you to try out. You seem (and have been) very focused around extenders as your go to fittings. Considering the changes to the rail gun (an all around nerf) and the nerf to damage mods, why not go bank and try these out. As I suspect they are VERY OP in lou of the recent changes.
Stacked resistances
High - Shield hardener x 3
Low - CPU Upgrade l Whatever else will fit (preferably armor if possible)
Before, damage mods would cut through hardeners like a hot knife through butter (mmm butter). Now though, considering damage mods are scaled and the fact that the railgun had it's damage cut, along with the faster over heat AND slower ROF, shield hardeners should provide more than adequate protection against even a particle cannon with damage mods.
Even prior to the changes, I liked this setup a lot even when dealing with double damage modded sica's, as it required more than 3 or 4 shots to break through to the armor. Now, I see it as being very viable against anything less than the best. The trick is (always has been) cycling one on most all the time, turning the other 2 on as soon as you take the damage, then recharging after the encounter.
Resistance HP balance
High - Shield hardener x2 l Extender x1
Low - PG/CPU upgrade x1 each
This one is rather obvious, double hardeners for resisting the onslaught and a shield extender for the added buffer. Not to mention shield tanks actually need something for the hardeners to resist, so adding the extender in place of an extra hardener allows your hardeners to maximize their time active fully.
This wasn't viable before, but considering the changes, I think it is a very solid setup.
Speed dual tanked
High - Shield hardener x1 l Damage mod x1 l Nitro x1
Low - Plate x1 l Armor Repair x1
This was my favorite fit for running gunners. Light on the shield defenses, and somewhat light in armor defenses, but far too many people underestimate how incredibly useful a nitro is for tanking. Why take hits when you can dodge them??
With the slower ROF on the railgun, I well imagine hitting a juking tank with a nitro active would take a bit more skill than before. The shield hardener provides you limited protection in case something makes it through (or those pesky AV), while a damage mod lowers how long the engagement lasts. Even if they do manage to make it through the shield, they still need to break the armor, while you are still speed happy doing circles around their turret rotation.
The thing I like best though is how easily you can dictate the terms of the engagement. If you notice you are taking too much fire, it's very easy to break LOS, rep back that lost armor AND shield at basically the same time, getting you back into the fight at full strength. And that complex nitro has a very quick CD.
Basically though, a lot of my fits revolve around using a nitro, whether it be double hardened speed fit, or damage modded out with a speed mod for defense.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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