DUST Search - Tankers against competent AV

Nothing Certain wrote:

Pvt Numnutz wrote:

Atiim wrote:

-snip- long quote

It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners.

You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively

You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence-

[/list]
Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance.

On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better?

You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one?

If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships.

I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument.


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Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1482	Posted - 2014.06.15 00:40:00 - [1] - Quote Atiim wrote: -snip- long quote It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners. You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence- [/list] Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance. On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships.
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1482	Posted - 2014.06.15 03:49:00 - [2] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Atiim wrote: -snip- long quote It took 2 players to destroy you, and you weren't even using hardeners. You state yourself that the outcome would not have been the same had your HAV been fit defensively You allowed yourself to get trapped by AV; which is an issue of -gross incompetence- [/list] Mind you that the first two points already state an imbalance, and the 3rd point isn't even a credible basis for determining balance. On a slightly inflammatory note, perhaps you should pilot your HAV better? You know I want to ask you a question atiim. Should it take 2 players to destroy a well fit tank or just one? If one swarm launcher player is able to kill a tank or dropship then what happens when there is two? Or a swarm and a forge? If av was powerful enough to solo vehicles again vehicles would be pretty useless, especially dropships. I think I see what you are getting at but I don't follow the logic. You are arguing that it should take 2 AV players to kill 1 vehicle player because otherwise 2 AV'ers will dominate vehicles, but you have that exact situation only reversed and think it is fine. Are you fine with the idea that it should take two tanks or a tank and a dropship to kill one well fitted forge gunner? If not, why not? It is the exact same argument. I am arguing that if one av can destroy a vehicle solo then any combination will destroy a vehicle, even a well fit one, with ease. I am fine with the idea of it taking two av to kill one well skilled vehicle even if its a proto and a milita because of the substantial amount of isk that some vehicles cost. Obviously milita tanks are broken and I agree that they need a large price increase or a Nerf to bring them in line. I am a dropship pilot main, though I also operate missile tanks for fun. With dropships I run with a crew of 2-4 mercs depending on who is on. With the dropship pilot rendering issues I find that having a gunner is nessesary as they can see threats I simply cannot. Even on my missile tank I have gunners come along to deal with infantry as the large missile turret isn't effective against infantry, and from what I'm hearing from blaster hav operators the dispertion Nerf has affected them. Hopefully this leads to more hav operators fitting turrets to combat infantry. Although it does take two av working together to kill a well fit dropship it only takes one to deny the area to it and that protects his ground team. Tanks of course are another story, but you cannot talk av without including every form of vehicle in those talks.
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1482	Posted - 2014.06.15 08:05:00 - [3] - Quote Atiim wrote: ] Now let's look at this from another standpoint. Why would anyone spend SP into the AV role when it : Requires exponential amounts of SP to complete, comparable to that of a vehicle pilot. Reduces your viability against Infantry units Useful only in select few situations Makes you extremely vulnerable to Infantry As opposed to a vehicle when it: Grants invulnerability to 71% of all Infantry Weapons in DUST 514 3,000 eHP Increase Increases viability against Infantry units Useful in nearly all situations The answer is, they wouldn't. There would be no point to using AV Weaponry, especially over a vehicle. Bar those few sockets and complexes, but even then your starter fits are quite effective, and will be even more so in Hotfix Bravo when more MLT Weapons are added to the marketplace. Now for my questions to you: Do you believe that AVers should have reasonable expectations to solo a vehicle pilot (assuming equally tiered and experienced) and if not, then why? How viable should the AV class be compared to the Vehicle class? How many players do you believe it should require to destroy yourself, and why?[/list] -HAND Good post, I'd just like to ask that as we continue this dialog we could refrain from personal attacks and quips as there has been enough of that in the av/v discussion. I approached you with this question as you are strong supporter of swarms as I am a strong supporter of dropships and would like to keep this civil (and I know how much you enjoy exciting vehicle players) You raise some valid points and I acknowledge them. Though a few I feel are unfair. From my experience the current balance model (for dropships/av) is, Pilot > Infantry > AVer GëÑ Pilot Though as the different av weapons are well, different I'll break it down as I have encountered it. Forge guns: very much true, fights against a forge gun are intense and have me at the end he of my seat, one small slip up on either side could mean death. Naturally less skilled forge gunners are easier to kill but then again I'm a seasoned pilot so that makes sense. Really skilled forge gunners scare the hell out of me and if I manage to break contact and limp away I don't return to that area. PLC: not as true against a dropship but then the PLC is geared more towards fighting ground vehicles and can (in the right hands) solo tanks. It can deal pretty devastating damage and force dropships away, and I have fought some skilled PLC users who fought just as your model describes. (Not really relevant but it does have better AI ability than other av) Swarms: can be argued both ways. Swarm knock does give the swarmer the ability to fight off a dropship when its attacking. When coupled with the minmando proto swarms fit your model pretty good. Same sort of situation with the forge gun a mistake on either side could lead to death, I have been downed by some skilled minmando swarms and have barley killed a few as well. The other comment I felt was unfair was the sp requirement. With tiercide a fully speced minmando with swarms and a fully speced python are about the same in sp requirements. Though we can debate that another time. To answer your questions, Yes I do feel av should have a reasonable chance at brining down my ship if they have the same investment in their role as I do. Your going to have to elaborate on this a little. Viable in terms of wp? Av does get points for damaging vehicles so keeping them off ground troops backs could be viable? I wish transporting troops in my dropship was more viable I feel it should take two av players to down my dropship. Be it proto swarm and milita, two adv swarms, forge and swarm, PLC and swarm etc. I feel this way because my dropship isn't empty, at minimum I have one gunner and that's a skeleton crew. Ideally I have two gunners/shock troopers (usually heavies with forge guns for tanks and suicide ships) a hacker and a another variable shock trooper. My point about dropships (and tanks to a lesser extent) is that they emphasize team work. I will never be able to use my missile turret as good as my gunner because I also have to fly the craft, where as my gunner is focused on one job. I can give him better angles than I can get, he can see infantry and threats better than I can and he doesn't have to worry about flying the dropship. Having a gunner allows me to focus on flying. I usually only use my gun to add DPs on hard targets like other vehicles or installations. (Sometimes forge guns because when I'm banking hard at high speed gunners run the risk of killing themselves) I do understand that there are pilots who take off their side guns to fit more of a tank. This saddens me too, and while they do have more tank and are still a threat they aren't as effective as a dropship with gunners. A dropship without gunners can't do a slow orbit while keeping a gun on its target, in some cases they may be able to but their attention will be devided between looking for other threats, shooting at the target and flying their ship. Some more questions for you, Could you clarify for me what a reasonable expectation is for an av player (more specifically a swarm player) to solo a well fit and skilled python pilot is? Maybe of an example of an engagement? Please clarify what you mean by viable (Since I know you use swarms) when engaging a proto fit dropship with same teir kit how Manny volleys should it take (in your mind) to kill a dropship? I see a lot of swarm players complaining about dropships afterburning away. Truth be told it's because if we stay we will probably be killed by said swarms. How do you view this as a swarmer? As my only sure fire way to get away from swarms is an afterburner I consider it my countermeasure, in fact to more than just swarms.
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1482	Posted - 2014.06.15 08:10:00 - [4] - Quote Wouldn't fit I apologize if my op sounded confrontational but really I was asking in good spirits (was pretty high at the time) and wanted to have a dialog with an av player that doesn't devolve into....well.....that swarm discussion ratatti put up. I want av to feel like their useful and have a role on the battlefield. I also don't want to loose my investments and feel useless either. Anyway I look forward to your reply
Pvt Numnutz Watchdoge Explosives 1482	Posted - 2014.06.15 08:21:00 - [5] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: If an aver is simply unable to kill a tank solo, then how can a solo Aver 'deny the area'? Area denial relies on the enemy being in fear of you, for if they stay around, they WILL die. There is a big difference between area denial and killing. vehicles are afraid of av, maybe not triple rep Maddie's but every other vehicle. I shouldn't have to explain this.