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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3505
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Posted - 2014.06.13 17:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
At what point does a shield extender add less value than a damage mod, assuming 1v1 combat, knowledge of the opponent's position, no cover and no headshots?
No assertions please! I don't need hard maths, ballpark figures are fine!
But please, no assertions!
CCP Rattati Best Dev
Sorry, Blowout...
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Bojo The Mighty
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
3784
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Posted - 2014.06.13 17:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Depends on the weapon.
For instance DPS versus one shot
SMG versus Forge Gun
it's all very variable dependent on the suit you wear and the weapon used.....
But if a hypothetical weapon does X damage and you add a mod that increases it by Y% then the DPS would be Z(1+Y) and the difference between Z(1+Y) - Z would be the damage increase and then you compare that to a shield extender of your choice
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14463
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Posted - 2014.06.13 17:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
I ran some numbers on this a while ago. I used 400 DPS as a base, so that's probably around what rifles generally deal.
The answer was a ways over 1000 HP. Will see if I can find those numbers.
It's different depending on the DPS though.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3505
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Posted - 2014.06.13 17:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Right, sorry.
Let's say Duvolle, no proficiency.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
I gots to stop making 3am posts...
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
583
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Posted - 2014.06.13 17:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I ran some numbers on this a while ago. I used 400 DPS as a base, so that's probably around what rifles generally deal.
The answer was a ways over 1000 HP. Will see if I can find those numbers.
It's different depending on the DPS though.
I just arrived at about 1300 HP:
Player A has x HP and a damage mod, player B has x + 66 hp and no damage mod.
DPS before damage mod is 400, damage mod adds 5%.
Player A dies after x/400 seconds. Player B dies after (x+66)/420 seconds.
The point of equilibrium is where both TTKs are identical. By the powers of linear algebra I conclude:
x = 66 * 400/20 = 1320 hp |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3505
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Posted - 2014.06.13 17:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I ran some numbers on this a while ago. I used 400 DPS as a base, so that's probably around what rifles generally deal.
The answer was a ways over 1000 HP. Will see if I can find those numbers.
It's different depending on the DPS though. I just arrived at about 1300 HP: Player A has x HP and a damage mod, player B has x + 66 hp and no damage mod. DPS before damage mod is 400, damage mod adds 5%. Player A dies after x/400 seconds. Player B dies after (x+66)/420 seconds. The point of equilibrium is where both TTKs are identical. By the powers of linear algebra I conclude: x = 66 * 400/20 = 1320 hp
If DPS increases to say 600, how would that change?
CCP Rattati Best Dev
I gots to stop making 3am posts...
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Aisha Ctarl
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
4800
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Posted - 2014.06.13 17:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ugh I hate math...let's do science problems :3
Scrambling brains since 5/14/13
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14464
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Posted - 2014.06.13 18:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aisha Ctarl wrote:Ugh I hate math...let's do science problems :3
I remember you telling me an all hydrogen atmosphere would ignite the other day. :3
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Scheneighnay McBob
The Last of DusT.
General Tso's Alliance
5249
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Posted - 2014.06.13 19:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Either weapons need to be nerfed, or ehp modules need a buff. Not really any need to have an extender if it's gone in one shot from an automatic weapon.
Whatever happens, regulators need a buff as well.
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
3299
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Posted - 2014.06.13 19:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aisha Ctarl wrote:Ugh I hate math...let's do science problems :3
Yay I'm not the only one v0v
Its alright everyone, no need to worry it's just an Amarr scout :(
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14469
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Posted - 2014.06.13 22:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Either weapons need to be nerfed, or ehp modules need a buff. Not really any need to have an extender if it's gone in one shot from an automatic weapon.
Whatever happens, regulators need a buff as well.
Isn't that kind of the opposite of what's been shown here?
Unless you're in a heavy, there's no point in fitting a damage mod. Shield extenders are almost always better.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy
1342
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Posted - 2014.06.13 22:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Either weapons need to be nerfed, or ehp modules need a buff. Not really any need to have an extender if it's gone in one shot from an automatic weapon.
Whatever happens, regulators need a buff as well. Isn't that kind of the opposite of what's been shown here? Unless you're in a heavy, there's no point in fitting a damage mod. Shield extenders are almost always better.
Your forgetting the LR which has damage ramp up. Commando plus dmg mods plus LR makes for a very surprised armor tanked merc
Amarr: Sentinel V Scout V Assault IV Commando IV Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Gooseman Manwhore
CREATURES OF THE NIGHT
53
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Posted - 2014.06.13 22:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
C'mon people, math isn't that hard. Neither is meth, but that's another story.
More to the point, I wouldn't even include shields in this equation as they get scared quite easily. I've noticed if you shove a cheetoh in your shield pack then it tends to overcome it's fears and recharge itself.
I put the sexi in dyslexia
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Winst0n W0lf
Her Majesty's S3cret S3rvice
9
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Posted - 2014.06.13 22:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Even before the damage mod nerf they weren't significantly better than shields for most weapons. Definitely not now.
I solve problems. I'm also John Demonsbane.
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Tectonic Fusion
1691
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Posted - 2014.06.13 22:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Either weapons need to be nerfed, or ehp modules need a buff. Not really any need to have an extender if it's gone in one shot from an automatic weapon.
Whatever happens, regulators need a buff as well. Isn't that kind of the opposite of what's been shown here? Unless you're in a heavy, there's no point in fitting a damage mod. Shield extenders are almost always better. Your forgetting the LR which has damage ramp up. Commando plus dmg mods plus LR makes for a very surprised armor tanked merc
You know what it does to shield tanked suits...
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
583
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Posted - 2014.06.14 11:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:If DPS increases to say 600, how would that change?
derp.
I'm too tired for maths. In my scenario it doesn't depend on the base DPS.
This is because player A has the damage mod when player B has the shield extender instead, or vice versa. While TTK will change with changing base-DPS, the point where 66 hp prolongs your TTK more than 5% of damage shortens it doesn't.
The damage mod shortens TTK by a factor of 1-1/1.05, a shield extender increases it by a factor of 66/baseHP. The math then tells you at which baseHP-value these two factors are identical, which is a baseHP value of 1320 HP. In other words this is (approximately) the point where 66 additional HP make 5% more eHP for the suit. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3517
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Posted - 2014.06.14 12:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:If DPS increases to say 600, how would that change?
derp.
I'm too tired for maths. In my scenario it doesn't depend on the base DPS. This is because player A has the damage mod when player B has the shield extender instead, or vice versa. While TTK will change with changing base-DPS, the point where 66 hp prolongs your TTK more than 5% of damage shortens it doesn't. The damage mod shortens TTK by a factor of 1-1/1.05, a shield extender increases it by a factor of 66/baseHP. The math then tells you at which baseHP-value these two factors are identical, which is a baseHP value of 1320 HP. In other words this is (approximately) the point where 66 additional HP make 5% more eHP for the suit.
I realised; that was the edit :P
CCP Rattati Best Dev
I gots to stop making 3am posts...
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Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1343
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Posted - 2014.06.14 13:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I ran some numbers on this a while ago. I used 400 DPS as a base, so that's probably around what rifles generally deal.
The answer was a ways over 1000 HP. Will see if I can find those numbers.
It's different depending on the DPS though. I just arrived at about 1300 HP: Player A has x HP and a damage mod, player B has x + 66 hp and no damage mod. DPS before damage mod is 400, damage mod adds 5%. Player A dies after x/400 seconds. Player B dies after (x+66)/420 seconds. The point of equilibrium is where both TTKs are identical. By the powers of linear algebra I conclude: x = 66 * 400/20 = 1320 hp
I always just think of it in terms of the percentage of damage increase versus the percentage of HP increase. So for a 660HP suit a damage mod gives you only half the benefit of a shield as it's a 5% damage increase versus 10% shield increase. But for a 1320 HP suit the mod gives you the same 5% benefit as the shield, i.e. equilibrium is reached.
That is the same result your equation gave, but I think your equation is giving the right result (in that one case) for the wrong reason. If you plug the old values for damage mods into your equation you get 66 * 400/10=2640, i.e. you would need an impossible amount of HP for an old damage mod to be viable. Clearly, there should not be less reason to use a damage mod where their effectiveness is doubled  |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3519
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Posted - 2014.06.14 13:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I ran some numbers on this a while ago. I used 400 DPS as a base, so that's probably around what rifles generally deal.
The answer was a ways over 1000 HP. Will see if I can find those numbers.
It's different depending on the DPS though. I just arrived at about 1300 HP: Player A has x HP and a damage mod, player B has x + 66 hp and no damage mod. DPS before damage mod is 400, damage mod adds 5%. Player A dies after x/400 seconds. Player B dies after (x+66)/420 seconds. The point of equilibrium is where both TTKs are identical. By the powers of linear algebra I conclude: x = 66 * 400/20 = 1320 hp I always just think of it in terms of the percentage of damage increase versus the percentage of HP increase. So for a 660HP suit a damage mod gives you only half the benefit of a shield as it's a 5% damage increase versus 10% shield increase. But for a 1320 HP suit the mod gives you the same 5% benefit as the shield, i.e. equilibrium is reached. That is the same result your equation gave, but I think your equation is giving the right result (in that one case) for the wrong reason. If you plug the old values for damage mods into your equation you get 66 * 400/10=2640, i.e. you would need an impossible amount of HP for an old damage mod to be viable. Clearly, there should not be less reason to use a damage mod where their effectiveness is doubled
His old equation would have been 66 * 400/40 = 660, though.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
I gots to stop making 3am posts...
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Stefan Stahl
Seituoda Taskforce Command
584
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Posted - 2014.06.14 14:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:I always just think of it in terms of the percentage of damage increase versus the percentage of HP increase. I do so too. The calculations I showed yesterday just didn't have the base DPS canceled out because I had done the math numerically in this editor-view instead of doing it symbolically like I did later on a piece of paper. That's why I followed it up with another post today.
It's rather obvious though that the damage-mod nerf was clumsy. We should probably reinstate the old values at some point. |
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
3671
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Posted - 2014.06.14 17:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
Don't need fancy maths...
66 is a complex shield extender
if you have 660 hp, a 66 extention would be 10% more health.
If you have 1320 hp (660 x 2), a 66 extension would be 5% more health.
So anything higher would give you a lower percentage of health, therefore the damage mod would be better.
Personally I only use damage mods on my heavies and with my scrambler rifles. The exception with the scrambler is that the 5% increase becomes a 10% one when you do charge shots, and then getting a headshot would deal even more damage (almost a 15% damage increase with one complex, or 30% with two).
Weapons that deal a lot of damage (especially AV weapons) are also best for damage mods. You don't want a tank running away from you with 300 armor left that you could have dealth with that extra damage mod. Same goes with a sniper rifle or even things like Rail and Scrambler Rifles. You want every round to matter, every shot to hit hard.
But ultimately, damage mods are most useful when you are the first person to react. If you can't get the first shot, or if you're not the one starting combat, shields are always the better option.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
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Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
1345
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Posted - 2014.06.14 20:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Don't need fancy maths...
66 is a complex shield extender
if you have 660 hp, a 66 extention would be 10% more health.
If you have 1320 hp (660 x 2), a 66 extension would be 5% more health.
So anything higher would give you a lower percentage of health, therefore the damage mod would be better.
This is pretty much word for word what I said lol |
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