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Clone D
433
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Posted - 2014.06.04 11:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
What is the reasoning behind nerfing dropsuit scan range buffs? Scan range is already beyond weak Four Complex Range Amplifiers still can't reach the range of non-sidearm weapons.
This is one primary reason why TACNET is a joke.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
13980
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Posted - 2014.06.04 11:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Nerfing the EWAR on scouts seems odd to me. It's kind of their role. IMO, it would have made more sense to reduce their ability to brick tank or something similar instead.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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RYN0CER0S
Rise Of Old Dudes
545
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Posted - 2014.06.04 11:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Some people say that CCP uses a "nerf bat". I've noticed that it's more like blindfolded pi+¦ata bashing than anything.
You can't fix stupid.
PSN: The_Rynoceros
Console Master Race
"It's better to burn out, than fade away." ~Def Leppard
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2383
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Posted - 2014.06.04 11:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
It was more that the bonuses were heavily stacked in favor of cal/gal scouts. For the gal scout to be able to dedicate next to no modules to its ewar bonus, and be practically unscannable meant that it could ALSO heavily utilize all of its lowslots for tank letting it get the effective usefullness of at least 2 PRO modules and not sacrificing tank.
They are still MUCH more effective at EWAR than anything else. It just that they can't now be BOTH ewar and good at brawling, as it should be.
Their crazy range before along with the ability to significantly tank, meant that all it took was a single scout in the middle of the city to communicate to a squad of heavies where nearly everyone attacking you was. A slight nerf to range means that this wont be as easy. |
Clone D
434
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Posted - 2014.06.04 12:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Their crazy range before ...
Tell me more of this "crazy range" in terms of meters.
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2385
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Posted - 2014.06.04 12:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Their crazy range before ... Tell me more of this "crazy range" in terms of meters.
It's really only a 10% reduction to skilled gal scout, but a little more significant to cal scout (20% reduction). The base suit ranges with no ramps was only about 31 m vs the normal 25m range for regular scouts or 12m-18m for most other suits. This multiplies the effectiveness of HMGs and other close range weapons on maps with a majority of points with chokepoints near objectives. |
Clone D
434
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Posted - 2014.06.04 12:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Their crazy range before ... Tell me more of this "crazy range" in terms of meters. It's really only a 10% reduction to skilled gal scout, but a little more significant to cal scout (20% reduction). The base suit ranges with no ramps was only about 31 m vs the normal 25m range for regular scouts or 12m-18m for most other suits. This multiplies the effectiveness of HMGs and other close range weapons on maps with a majority of points with chokepoints near objectives.
Don't forget about lag. By the time an enemy shows up in TACNET, he could be well within the boundaries of the scan, so there is a lag margin around the edge of TACNET which significantly reduces the actual scan range depending on how fast they're travelling. So, when you say 31m, it could be reduced to 25m if you're scanning a scout moving at 7m/s and lag is ~ 1s.
Yes, a scout and a heavy working in the same squad would be effective at 31m.
I will do some more math. Stacked Complex Range Amplifiers yield +45%, +39.1%, +25.67%, +12.7%. Sum that to a whopping 122.5% bonus of range. Light dropsuit default scan range 20m X Bonus 122.5% is 24.5m additional range. That's right, I just traded 4 high slots for 24.5m of additional scan range. Now add in the now 15% max bonus for cal scout, bumping the total bonus to a massive 27.5m additional scan range for a grand total of 47.5m scan range (maximum possible). Also, don't forget to subtract the lag margin, which reduces the practical range to somewhere around 40m.
Those are just numbers, but when I reflect on in game play, aside from shotguns, my scout deaths occur from weapons at distances greater than 40m, or from roadkill because the vehicle didn't even show up on TACNET.
From the standpoint of a lonewolf, 47.5m is ridiculously ineffective. I want to push my scans out to the edge of the minimap at 100m radius. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to, if I am willing to trade off those slots to dedicate to ewar.
I will say that range amplifiers need a huge boost and scout dropsuit scan range didn't need to be nerfed as all scan range is weak, weak, weak.
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2386
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Posted - 2014.06.04 13:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Their crazy range before ... Tell me more of this "crazy range" in terms of meters. It's really only a 10% reduction to skilled gal scout, but a little more significant to cal scout (20% reduction). The base suit ranges with no ramps was only about 31 m vs the normal 25m range for regular scouts or 12m-18m for most other suits. This multiplies the effectiveness of HMGs and other close range weapons on maps with a majority of points with chokepoints near objectives. Don't forget about lag. By the time an enemy shows up in TACNET, he could be well within the boundaries of the scan, so there is a lag margin around the edge of TACNET which significantly reduces the actual scan range depending on how fast they're travelling. So, when you say 31m, it could be reduced to 25m if you're scanning a scout moving at 7m/s and lag is ~ 1s. Yes, a scout and a heavy working in the same squad would be effective at 31m. I will do some more math. Stacked Complex Range Amplifiers yield +45%, +39.1%, +25.67%, +12.7%. Sum that to a whopping 122.5% bonus of range. Light dropsuit default scan range 20m X Bonus 122.5% is 24.5m additional range. That's right, I just traded 4 high slots for 24.5m of additional scan range. Now add in the now 15% max bonus for cal scout, bumping the total bonus to a massive 27.5m additional scan range for a grand total of 47.5m scan range (maximum possible). Also, don't forget to subtract the lag margin, which reduces the practical range to somewhere around 40m. Those are just numbers, but when I reflect on in game play, aside from shotguns, my scout deaths occur from weapons at distances greater than 40m, or from roadkill because the vehicle didn't even show up on TACNET. From the standpoint of a lonewolf, 47.5m is ridiculously ineffective. I want to push my scans out to the edge of the minimap at 100m radius. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to, if I am willing to trade off those slots to dedicate to ewar. I will say that range amplifiers need a huge boost and scout dropsuit scan range didn't need to be nerfed as all scan range is weak, weak, weak.
I think your math is off, i'm pretty sure you can easily get gal scout scans out to 83m. Cal scout is 53m. Amarr scout is 71m. Minmatar is 63m. |
Clone D
436
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Posted - 2014.06.04 13:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Their crazy range before ... Tell me more of this "crazy range" in terms of meters. It's really only a 10% reduction to skilled gal scout, but a little more significant to cal scout (20% reduction). The base suit ranges with no ramps was only about 31 m vs the normal 25m range for regular scouts or 12m-18m for most other suits. This multiplies the effectiveness of HMGs and other close range weapons on maps with a majority of points with chokepoints near objectives. Don't forget about lag. By the time an enemy shows up in TACNET, he could be well within the boundaries of the scan, so there is a lag margin around the edge of TACNET which significantly reduces the actual scan range depending on how fast they're travelling. So, when you say 31m, it could be reduced to 25m if you're scanning a scout moving at 7m/s and lag is ~ 1s. Yes, a scout and a heavy working in the same squad would be effective at 31m. I will do some more math. Stacked Complex Range Amplifiers yield +45%, +39.1%, +25.67%, +12.7%. Sum that to a whopping 122.5% bonus of range. Light dropsuit default scan range 20m X Bonus 122.5% is 24.5m additional range. That's right, I just traded 4 high slots for 24.5m of additional scan range. Now add in the now 15% max bonus for cal scout, bumping the total bonus to a massive 27.5m additional scan range for a grand total of 47.5m scan range (maximum possible). Also, don't forget to subtract the lag margin, which reduces the practical range to somewhere around 40m. Those are just numbers, but when I reflect on in game play, aside from shotguns, my scout deaths occur from weapons at distances greater than 40m, or from roadkill because the vehicle didn't even show up on TACNET. From the standpoint of a lonewolf, 47.5m is ridiculously ineffective. I want to push my scans out to the edge of the minimap at 100m radius. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to, if I am willing to trade off those slots to dedicate to ewar. I will say that range amplifiers need a huge boost and scout dropsuit scan range didn't need to be nerfed as all scan range is weak, weak, weak. I think your math is off, i'm pretty sure you can easily get gal scout scans out to 83m. Cal scout is 53m. Amarr scout is 71m. Minmatar is 63m.
Show me.
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2387
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Posted - 2014.06.04 13:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
20m base range *25% skill bonus = 25m *1.15 gal scout bonus = 28.75m *1.45 first mod = 41.69 m *1.39 2nd mod = 57.9 m *1.26 3rd mod = 73 m *1.12 4th mod = 81.2 m
Also, you had said that your range boost is a highslot module, but it is a lowslot module. So you can only put 2 on a calscout. Are you equipping precision mods thinking that they should give you range? |
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Clone D
436
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Posted - 2014.06.04 13:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:20m base range *25% skill bonus = 25m *1.15 gal scout bonus = 28.75m *1.45 first mod = 41.69 m *1.39 2nd mod = 57.9 m *1.26 3rd mod = 73 m *1.12 4th mod = 81.2 m
Also, you had said that your range boost is a highslot module, but it is a lowslot module. So you can only put 2 on a calscout. Are you equipping precision mods thinking that they should give you range?
So you don't add up all of the percentages and then multiply by the base amount?
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2389
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Posted - 2014.06.04 13:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:20m base range *25% skill bonus = 25m *1.15 gal scout bonus = 28.75m *1.45 first mod = 41.69 m *1.39 2nd mod = 57.9 m *1.26 3rd mod = 73 m *1.12 4th mod = 81.2 m
Also, you had said that your range boost is a highslot module, but it is a lowslot module. So you can only put 2 on a calscout. Are you equipping precision mods thinking that they should give you range? So you don't add up all of the percentages and then multiply by the base amount? Can we get a dev in here to comment on how scan range is calculated and the maximum scan range possible?
With your math how do you solve for a single module? |
Clone D
436
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Posted - 2014.06.04 13:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:20m base range *25% skill bonus = 25m *1.15 gal scout bonus = 28.75m *1.45 first mod = 41.69 m *1.39 2nd mod = 57.9 m *1.26 3rd mod = 73 m *1.12 4th mod = 81.2 m
Also, you had said that your range boost is a highslot module, but it is a lowslot module. So you can only put 2 on a calscout. Are you equipping precision mods thinking that they should give you range? So you don't add up all of the percentages and then multiply by the base amount? Can we get a dev in here to comment on how scan range is calculated and the maximum scan range possible? With your math how do you solve for a single module?
Module Slot.) Penalty Multiplier X Base Bonus = Modified Bonus 1.) 100.00% X 45% = 45% 2.) 86.91% X 45% = 39.1% 3.) 57.06% X 45% = 25.67% 4.) 28.30% X 45% = 12.7%
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad.
9112
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Posted - 2014.06.04 13:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Wow are you honestly saying that a 40m wall-hack 24/7 isn't good enough?
HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior
Need HeLP in PC? Contact Me In-Game :D
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Clone D
436
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Posted - 2014.06.04 14:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Wow are you honestly saying that a 40m wall-hack 24/7 isn't good enough?
That is what I'm saying. With vehicles driving 20+m/s TACNET lag, they may not even show up on radar, or show up under 1 second before impact, if they are trying to run you down. 40m is nothing when you have to cross open terrain (not all battles occur in the confines of a building). 40m, 50m, 60m is not enough when you're running a tissue paper dropsuit. Anything under the range of a SCR, RR or CR is not enough.
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Beren Hurin
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
2393
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Posted - 2014.06.04 18:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Atiim wrote:Wow are you honestly saying that a 40m wall-hack 24/7 isn't good enough? That is what I'm saying. With vehicles driving 20+m/s TACNET lag, they may not even show up on radar, or show up under 1 second before impact, if they are trying to run you down. 40m is nothing when you have to cross open terrain (not all battles occur in the confines of a building). 40m, 50m, 60m is not enough when you're running a tissue paper dropsuit. Anything under the range of a SCR, RR or CR is not enough.
Sounds like you want a super lone-wolf suit that can take out anything solo. |
Scheneighnay McBob
The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance
5157
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Posted - 2014.06.04 18:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Since when was it that week?
It's very useful for playing shotgun ring-around-the-rosey
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Louis Domi
Pradox One Proficiency V.
338
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Posted - 2014.06.04 19:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Clone D wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Their crazy range before ... Tell me more of this "crazy range" in terms of meters. It's really only a 10% reduction to skilled gal scout, but a little more significant to cal scout (20% reduction). The base suit ranges with no ramps was only about 31 m vs the normal 25m range for regular scouts or 12m-18m for most other suits. This multiplies the effectiveness of HMGs and other close range weapons on maps with a majority of points with chokepoints near objectives. Don't forget about lag. By the time an enemy shows up in TACNET, he could be well within the boundaries of the scan, so there is a lag margin around the edge of TACNET which significantly reduces the actual scan range depending on how fast they're travelling. So, when you say 31m, it could be reduced to 25m if you're scanning a scout moving at 7m/s and lag is ~ 1s. Yes, a scout and a heavy working in the same squad would be effective at 31m. I will do some more math. Stacked Complex Range Amplifiers yield +45%, +39.1%, +25.67%, +12.7%. Sum that to a whopping 122.5% bonus of range. Light dropsuit default scan range 20m X Bonus 122.5% is 24.5m additional range. That's right, I just traded 4 high slots for 24.5m of additional scan range. Now add in the now 15% max bonus for cal scout, bumping the total bonus to a massive 27.5m additional scan range for a grand total of 47.5m scan range (maximum possible). Also, don't forget to subtract the lag margin, which reduces the practical range to somewhere around 40m. Those are just numbers, but when I reflect on in game play, aside from shotguns, my scout deaths occur from weapons at distances greater than 40m, or from roadkill because the vehicle didn't even show up on TACNET. From the standpoint of a lonewolf, 47.5m is ridiculously ineffective. I want to push my scans out to the edge of the minimap at 100m radius. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to, if I am willing to trade off those slots to dedicate to ewar. I will say that range amplifiers need a huge boost and scout dropsuit scan range didn't need to be nerfed as all scan range is weak, weak, weak. I think your math is off, i'm pretty sure you can easily get gal scout scans out to 83m. Cal scout is 53m. Amarr scout is 71m. Minmatar is 63m. I used to get my cal scout to 71m with 2 complex range amps
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CRNWLLC
Screwy Rabbit ULC
305
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Posted - 2014.06.04 19:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Nerfing the EWAR on scouts seems odd to me. It's kind of their role. IMO, it would have made more sense to reduce their ability to brick tank or something similar instead. Exactly. Maybe even by putting a non-obvious penalty (eg, a penalty to scan profile) for stacking plates. Wouldn't effect mediums or heavies, and would put scouts on a more level playing field with assaults when they're both running frontline, since scouts would approach, if not achieve, a medium's scan profile using plates. Then it makes the scout/assault choice more about slot layouts and a preference for speed vs. EHP.
A 1% increase to speed penalty at enhanced and complex levels makes no noticeable difference in gameplay. Very poorly thought out solution. |
RayRay James
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
166
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Posted - 2014.06.04 19:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Clone D wrote:Atiim wrote:Wow are you honestly saying that a 40m wall-hack 24/7 isn't good enough? That is what I'm saying. With vehicles driving 20+m/s TACNET lag, they may not even show up on radar, or show up under 1 second before impact, if they are trying to run you down. 40m is nothing when you have to cross open terrain (not all battles occur in the confines of a building). 40m, 50m, 60m is not enough when you're running a tissue paper dropsuit. Anything under the range of a SCR, RR or CR is not enough. Sounds like you want a super lone-wolf suit that can take out anything solo.
Sounds like
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Crimson ShieId
Psygod9
491
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Posted - 2014.06.04 19:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Did they nerf the range on scouts entirely? I know the Gal scout's bonuses got hit hard, but I thought the range on all the scout suits was a base 30meters? It used to be 20meters, but then they got buffed to 30 later on.
Nova Knives are magic~
-Inserts knife into nearest merc's spinal column-
And now, so are you! Bask in the magics!
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