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How To f ix The Plasma Cannon; an ODE to Rattati

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XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1369	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:10:00 - [1] - Quote PROPOSING CHANGES TO THE PLASMA CANNON DUST 514 LINK TO DOCUMEN OF PROPOSED CHANGES Introduction The basis of this document is to try too introduce changes to the Plasma Cannon that seem sensible and balanced. Increasing damage where need as is the case of the Breach variant and reducing damage as needed as is the assault variant. Always taking into consideration the balance of the game vs infantry and vs vehicles. Definition of Roles: Assault: The assault variant is the one intended for anti-infantry use. It will be oriented at giving the player an easier use alternative for the weapon they spent their SP in. This variant should have an expanded clip to help compensate for battle situations and should have less overall damage than the standard variant. Standard: Every weapon in Dust has a baseline from which the variants are made. It exists as a versatile jack of all trades that excelles in none of itGÇÖs roles. Breach: Every variant has a hard hitting counterpart designed to deliver high alpha damage but slower rate of fire. The proposed numbers for the breach variant are to do just that, a hard hitting longer charge variant centered around being an anti vehicle weapon. BALANCING THE ROLES Anti-infantry Although there is going to be an introduction of roles into the plasma cannon, it is imperative to keep the staple one hit kill mechanic. Therefore the stick by which the plasma cannon will be measured is by dropsuit size. An assault Plasma Cannon, for example, will only be able to one hit kill light dropsuits dedicated to the scout role (not brick tanked). In similar fashion the standard Plasma cannon will be able to one shot medium suits tanked for their specific role and finally the Breach variant will be able to one shot sentinels tanked to their specific role. This one hit kill effect will only be applied with direct damage. The basis for this balancing is that a character should have to choose in which area of combat he will be most effective and therefore rewarded for his or her choice in their preferred style of combat. Conversely a person using the plasma cannon not suited to eliminating the specific suit size it was designed to destroy will have a more difficult encounter. Anti-vehicle In the same sense that the plasma cannon is balanced against infantry, it is equally so against vehicles. The same principle exists in correlation with LAVGÇÖs, Dropships and HAVGÇÖs. The assault variant will be able to launch repeated attacks to try and damage an LAV that is trying to murder taxi or transport mercGÇÖs; as with the dropship and tanks however, the damage output of each Plasma cannon variant will determine their effectiveness towards the target. Assault will give more opportunities to hit LAVs and Dropships while not dealing massive amounts of damage while the breach will give an opportunity at dealing massive amounts of damage to Tanks that are slower and easier to hit at the point of engagement. CONCLUSIONS AND OTHER THOUGHTS While in the spreadsheet I included numbers that would address the plasma cannon that as A user I understand are reasonable, I also understand that there are some balancing mechanics that should stay on the plasma cannon. The projectile speed should stay. This in and of itself will be a limiting factor in using The BREACH PLC vs dropships. Ammo capacity should not be increased at all. This will ensure that even if they have more round in the chamber to shoot, they will run out of ammo pretty quickly and have to rely on either equipping a nanohive or having friends that will give them ammo. I hope CCP takes this feedback into consideration as I tried very hard to maintain the numbers balanced. Of course CCP has the liberty to change the numbers as they see fit but, bumping the plasma cannon into having balance. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13680	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:13:00 - [2] - Quote I don't really see why the plasma cannon doesn't have breach forge gun levels of alpha damage. The breach forge gun has huge range and perfect accuracy. As a penalty, you need to remain stationary whilst using it. The plasma cannon is much, much more difficult to aim with. It is, however, more mobile. They have similar refire times and they both have their own set of disadvantages so I don't really see why not. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1369	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:15:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I don't really see why the plasma cannon doesn't have breach forge gun levels of alpha damage. The breach forge gun has huge range and perfect accuracy. As a penalty, you need to remain stationary whilst using it. The plasma cannon is much, much more difficult to aim with. It is, however, more mobile. They have similar refire times and they both have their own set of disadvantages so I don't really see why not. I understand and we where close to taking this into consideration when writing the proposal but we also have to take into account that the Plasma Cannon is a light weapon, therefore if you notice the Proto Breach Plasma Cannon ends where the basic Breach forge gun begins. We also have to understand that CCP wants the FG to have the best overall power so we kept it this way Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13681	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:29:00 - [4] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: I understand and we where close to taking this into consideration when writing the proposal but we also have to take into account that the Plasma Cannon is a light weapon, therefore if you notice the Proto Breach Plasma Cannon ends where the basic Breach forge gun begins. We also have to understand that CCP wants the FG to have the best overall power so we kept it this way Why does a weapon being 'heavy' mean that it has to be vastly more powerful than its rivals? Even if the plasma cannon had the same level of damage as the breach forge gun, it would still have a myriad of disadvantages compared to it. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
Firbolg Barun Dust2Dust. Top Men. 16	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:29:00 - [5] - Quote I am in extacy when I read about your proposed changes Ghaz. I will let this animated GIF do the talking: http://media0.giphy.com/media/laFRu1Tg1HjMs/giphy.gif Mmmmmmmmmmegalike!
Chit Hoppened The Exemplars Top Men. 322	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:46:00 - [6] - Quote Dat Officer. You may want to change the letters/numbers around since the CR has the RS-90. Maybe RT-126? Other than that, it's golden. I want that breach though since I picked up the PLC for AV reasons, then I found out how hilariously awesome it was (is) against Infantry. This one is the one I would be most comfortable with. Bringing Heavy Metal to New Eden. Cannon Fever Representative
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1372	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:48:00 - [7] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: I understand and we where close to taking this into consideration when writing the proposal but we also have to take into account that the Plasma Cannon is a light weapon, therefore if you notice the Proto Breach Plasma Cannon ends where the basic Breach forge gun begins. We also have to understand that CCP wants the FG to have the best overall power so we kept it this way Why does a weapon being 'heavy' mean that it has to be vastly more powerful than its rivals? Even if the plasma cannon had the same level of damage as the breach forge gun, it would still have a myriad of disadvantages compared to it. beats me, I just accomodate for CCP ^^ Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13684	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:50:00 - [8] - Quote Am starting to run numbers now. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 163	Posted - 2014.05.23 19:52:00 - [9] - Quote I have been using the PLC in both an AI and AV context for a looong time. Without weighing in on the risks/benefits of proposed new variants I feel the PLC as it is works very well. I suggest for improving its use as an AV weapon that its damage be full, 100% damage to vehicles regardless of whether it hits shield or armor. This way so long as the target is hit the results will more predictable allowing for better coordination with other AV units (impact timing). A small, simple adjustment that improves actual intended use without incentivising spam or FOTM. A damage increase would be nice too, but personally I think we'd benefit more from just a flat damage accounting against vehicles. And thank you very much Ghaz for writing your data up and presenting it, o7 Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Pvt Numnutz R 0 N 1 N 1274	Posted - 2014.05.23 20:08:00 - [10] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I don't really see why the plasma cannon doesn't have breach forge gun levels of alpha damage. The breach forge gun has huge range and perfect accuracy. As a penalty, you need to remain stationary whilst using it. The plasma cannon is much, much more difficult to aim with. It is, however, more mobile. They have similar refire times and they both have their own set of disadvantages so I don't really see why not. Jesus Christ dude your still going on about this? There a three downsides to having a breach forge gun, your in a fat suit so your slow, you have to wait 6 seconds to charge it and you can't move while charging. Now let's get rid of all of those downsides put the damage in a light weapon and give it to a scout! Who can cloak and run around for days! Who can also fit remotes! Better yet let's put two and a gal commando who gets a damage bonus to the things! Plasma cannon more powerful than a breach without the drawbacks and you can fit two of them on a suit?! Hellz yeah! But its kinda hard to aim.... So?! Just run up to them! It's not like a tank is gonna do much with cloaked scouts sprinting around throwing av nades and firing breach fg damage while they bunny hop! Or gal commandos popping you just by switching weapons! Seriously think it through man! Anyway I'm very excited to see the plasma cannon become a more viable av weapon. A friend of mine uses it on his scout suit to kill tanks and it is very amusing to watch. He has to use everything in his arsenal, nades, remotes etc. It could defiantly use a buff. Though for the love of all things dust, don't break it by giving it breach fg damage!

MINA Longstrike 784	Posted - 2014.05.23 20:51:00 - [11] - Quote I do not like the numbers at all for anything aside from the breach. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 13686	Posted - 2014.05.23 20:55:00 - [12] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: Jesus Christ dude your still going on about this? There a three downsides to having a breach forge gun, your in a fat suit so your slow, you have to wait 6 seconds to charge it and you can't move while charging. There are downsides to the plasma cannon. Your reload time is as long as a skilled breach forge takes to charge. Your projectile is so painfully slow vehicles can actually actively evade it if you try to shoot them at range. The projectile has arc, so it's very slow. The non-hold charge time makes it even more difficult to aim. Meanwhile, the breach forge gun hits almost instantly and can fire across the map with perfect accuracy. A weapon being on a heavy suit is not a disadvantage. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Cross Atu for CPM1
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 298	Posted - 2014.05.23 20:55:00 - [13] - Quote I only picked up the PLC relatively recently, so please keep this in mind as you evaluate my comments. Something about the PLC is ridiculously fun. Maybe it's the challenge, maybe it's the trollish nature of the weapon, maybe it's the awesome ragdoll effects. I would run with it 100% of the time if I wasn't so busy recording footage for my youtube tutorial series. But I do know that I like the fact that it requires some skill to use and is different. But I would like to advocate for the new player here and suggest that the projectile speed be increased. If the PLC is an AV weapon (with anti-infantry application for skilled players), then the closest approximation to other FPS games is the RPG-7 or AT-4. This is how most new players are going to expect this weapon to work. Unguided Rocket launchers are already tricky to use, but DUST 514 adds spin up time, high arc (relatively speaking) and very slow projectile speed. This effectively places the PLC completely out of the realm of newer players. The best thing that can be done to make the PLC more viable as an AV weapon (especially to new players) is to increase the projectile speed. Players will still have to compensate for spin up time, distance to target, trajectory of projectile, elevation, and the movement vector of the target, as well as manage reload time and a small inventory of charges all while dodging Infantry and vehicles. BTW, your changes look well thought out and well balanced against each other. And increasing the number of charges in a clip is one way to increase its usefulness to less skilled players. But as it stands, only the most skilled players can make the PLC work, effective locking it away from most of the rest of the player base Surviving Dust: Tutorial Series
Yoma Carrim Arrogance. Dark Taboo 555	Posted - 2014.05.23 21:47:00 - [14] - Quote While I like where your headed with the Assault and the Breach I do not believe that the Standard should be given 2 rounds per clip Nor that the Assault should be given 3 rounds per clip. It is just my opinion but the STD to me feels like it should be that middle ground skill cannon while the Breach is more AV focused and the Assault is more anti infantry focused. To me the increased clip size is invading on the Mass drives round spam role and I'm afraid we would lose the feel of the PLC. Would you mind explaining why you want the increase to STD clip size? Oh Heck
RKKR The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 924	Posted - 2014.05.23 22:11:00 - [15] - Quote I don't know what to think about the assault variant...it sounds more like a Mass Driver that is less efficient as a Mass Driver (or to powerful than the MD). An assault PLC to hit LAVs? I'm sorry...if you can't hit a LAV with a normal PLC then you are also going to miss those assault shots or atleast most of them and you end up with low damage. From the times that I still play this game I'm mostly using a PLC in ambushes. For anti-infantry some maps/positions are better than others (skirmish and domination make this more favorable to go anti-infantry). What concerns me the worst: - shots passing through enemies, this is devasting as you need to get that hit off to survive in many situations. - shots doing no damage, sometimes a sentinel loses their whole shields while a scout suit survives the same shot, the same when a '+5 equipment destroyed' pops up while the enemy right next to it...takes (almost) no damage at all. maybe I need to get my eyes checked? - Walls/Supply depots absorbing PLC damage, nothing is more easy than to kill a red trying to hack that installation right? As for Anti-vehicle: - no problems with sica's and soma's (you can even solo hem coupled with AV-nades) -I'm usually the only one using AV....WTF? Sometimes I need just one more guy with a swarm or AV nade to finish a HAV off, (the regen and speed of HAVs and the distance they can Harm you from is also ridicilous compared to how AV-weapons work, also the way how a HAV can kill you while you are actually behind a stupid cover fence and not able to shoot back is stupid) - I don't need to get the reload animation of my PLC to override my grenade-throw action! Many vehicles have gotten away due to this. (Wait this is not entirly PLC, but it fucks up the AV-game). - spawns in ambush still suck and are too predictable for AV users to suprise a Vehicle. - shots at Dropships are difficult, a hit should be rewarded by bringing the DS more out of balance as it does now...it's stupid how a ADS can still accuratly take shots at you while he gets hit...and if he gets severly hit....it's gone in the sky and has regened and back to finish you off before you even reloaded. Actually I kinda like the PLC for AV, especially if there is a second guy doing AV work wih you. The added dmg against vehicles will make it more efficient which wouldn't be that bad. breach version sounds nice for the experienced guys, but with the above points, HAVS will still be the best AV, expect that they are not as fun :D.
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 718	Posted - 2014.05.24 00:38:00 - [16] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: XxGhazbaranxX wrote: I understand and we where close to taking this into consideration when writing the proposal but we also have to take into account that the Plasma Cannon is a light weapon, therefore if you notice the Proto Breach Plasma Cannon ends where the basic Breach forge gun begins. We also have to understand that CCP wants the FG to have the best overall power so we kept it this way Why does a weapon being 'heavy' mean that it has to be vastly more powerful than its rivals? Even if the plasma cannon had the same level of damage as the breach forge gun, it would still have a myriad of disadvantages compared to it. Think of small turrets vs light weapons. The heavier weapon has more downsides that the other in exchange for a couple better stats. Heavy weapons shouldn't be outright better than light weapons, but they should fit a particular role better, but at a higher cost like, PG/CPU, higher reload speed, no ADS or more dispersion, overheat, slower rate of fire, and being not as useful in a wider range of situations. TL;DR Basically they gain effectiveness in one area and lose effectiveness in others. Edit: Also to use a heavy weapon, you have to restrict your versatility and use a heavy frame. MAG vet, Dust closed beta vet, and an alt of Velvet Overkill (infantry) & Agent Overkill (vehicle).
XxGhazbaranxX The New Age Outlaws Proficiency V. 1378	Posted - 2014.05.24 01:25:00 - [17] - Quote The fact is, the plasma cannon, as is, doesn't have a place on the battle field, to give it a role on the battle field something has to change, as much as I would love the Plasma cannon to remain a single shot weapon, the crux of the matter is, that with the current state of Dust 514 it will never see enough change in the weapons characteristics to allow it to be a truly viable LIGHT weapon that has Anti-vehicle capabilities as well as being viable against infantry. Therefore it is with a great deal of consideration into the true way to balance to weapon that adding a second and third round to the plasma cannon will allow for newer players to have a fighting chance if the first misses or to finish off a player should it only be splash damage, currently it is a skill use weapon, it has not auto-aim helping it, it is truly reliant on the ability of the player, and once learned you should be able to devastate your opponent as well as any other light weapon is capable of doing, there is one other thing I would point out and that is that between each shot you should still require the charge, along the same mechanics of the Bolt pistol, I hope this give you some kind of idea as to why I chose to increase the clip size in my feedback. Plasma Cannon Advocate Dust 514 Survivor
Yoma Carrim Arrogance. Dark Taboo 556	Posted - 2014.05.24 12:17:00 - [18] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: The fact is, the plasma cannon, as is, doesn't have a place on the battle field, to give it a role on the battle field something has to change, as much as I would love the Plasma cannon to remain a single shot weapon, the crux of the matter is, that with the current state of Dust 514 it will never see enough change in the weapons characteristics to allow it to be a truly viable LIGHT weapon that has Anti-vehicle capabilities as well as being viable against infantry. Therefore it is with a great deal of consideration into the true way to balance to weapon that adding a second and third round to the plasma cannon will allow for newer players to have a fighting chance if the first misses or to finish off a player should it only be splash damage, currently it is a skill use weapon, it has not auto-aim helping it, it is truly reliant on the ability of the player, and once learned you should be able to devastate your opponent as well as any other light weapon is capable of doing, there is one other thing I would point out and that is that between each shot you should still require the charge, along the same mechanics of the Bolt pistol, I hope this give you some kind of idea as to why I chose to increase the clip size in my feedback. Yes it dose thank you Oh Heck
Starfire Revo Inner.Hell 287	Posted - 2014.05.24 14:56:00 - [19] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: The fact is, the plasma cannon, as is, doesn't have a place on the battle field I'd disagree with this based on what the current meta is right now. The 2 problems I see with the PLC compared to other weapons are it's poor scaling compared to other AV options and it's hit detection issues. The first is being solved through the proposed alpha patch changes. The PLC's scaling between ranks will be on par with the Forge Gun's and hopefully they fix swarms so all AV gets put on it's own scaling. The hit detection is noticeably poor on the PLC the moment any kind of lag comes into play. It's fine most of the time if I play on my own region. When I go to NA or Asia however, it's fairly normal for my shots to pass through people. I'm not sure how to fix this other than to suggest CCP try playing on servers outside their own when looking into the weapon's issues. Also the fact that so much of competitive play revolves around scouts who are fast, have small hitboxes and stack hp to prevent splash kills doesn't help the PLC's role as a skillshot anti-infantry weapon. This is made even worse when you consider what equipment spam on large sockets does to people's framerates. When using a PLC, I need to judge my shots based on people's movements and a stable, high framerate is a key part of that. It's worth noting that this is less of an issue on larger maps (such as Border Gulch or Fracture Road) where equipment spam isn't as focused on a single socket. I like the concept of an assault variant that has lower damage and more shots. This could possibly have a faster projectile to be more useful against harder targets such as dropships and scouts. I think your suggestions have merit though, but the other core issues with the PLC need looked into. I don't want PLCs to get buffed at the same time as their problems get fixed, only to end up like rifles in 1.7. Quote: Why does a weapon being 'heavy' mean that it has to be vastly more powerful than its rivals? Heavy weapons don't get damage bonuses from commandos, don't fit on more mobile suits with a smaller sig radius, can't be used on suits that have cloaks. I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3505	Posted - 2014.06.13 16:51:00 - [20] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Pvt Numnutz wrote: Jesus Christ dude your still going on about this? There a three downsides to having a breach forge gun, your in a fat suit so your slow, you have to wait 6 seconds to charge it and you can't move while charging. There are downsides to the plasma cannon. Your reload time is as long as a skilled breach forge takes to charge. Your projectile is so painfully slow vehicles can actually actively evade it if you try to shoot them at range. The projectile has arc, so it's very slow. The non-hold charge time makes it even more difficult to aim. Meanwhile, the breach forge gun hits almost instantly and can fire across the map with perfect accuracy. A weapon being on a heavy suit is not a disadvantage. Okay, so I'm looking at this from the perspective of a HAV pilot and a forge gunner. At the moment a BFG is one of the two most effective ways of soloing tanks, the other being IAFG. Given good positioning a breach's firepower is unmatched; a round into the weak spot can potentially OHK some fittings. The reason this isn't a problem is because of the practical immobility the BFG demands. Firing the BFG holds you in position for 4.5s, and launches a massive glowing ball that completely gives away your position; essentially, you need to make that first shot count. Your huge hitbox makes it pretty easy for a rail or a blaster to hit you, and if the pilot decides not to force the issue, you can't chase him down because you move as fast as a snail, and you need to stay motionless to fire again. Basically, the reason a BFG isn't stupid OP is positioning and the fact that it's incredibly difficult to pull off against a competent driver (or even most terrible ones, to be quite honest). At the moment my most reliable AV fitting consists of an IAFG and EX-11 Packed AV Grenades. This is because the grenades' huge alpha damage allows me to spike tanks into oblivion. I still need to plan very heavily in advance, or use an expensive, durable suit or vehicle to get close enough to employ this tactic. If a plasma cannon dealt the same sort of damage as a breach forge gun, it negates that great disadvantage of the BFG, namely mobility, and replaces it with the restriction of range. However, as I've just explained, range isn't really something a solo forge gunner can take advantage of anyway; DPS isn't sufficient to destroy most vehicles before they escape. Firing a BPLC, especially in the weak point, as is practically necessary with BFG, would strip shields nearly totally and remove a large amount of armour from most fittings, making mopping up with AV grenades extraordinarily easy. Should you be out of range of grenades, one can simply take the cover afforded by not having a long and immobile charge time. Mobility is, in AV, a far greater advantage than EHP, considering that most large turrets deal catastrophic DPS to almost all suits anyway. CCP Rattati Best Dev Sorry, Blowout...



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