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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1077
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Posted - 2014.05.22 20:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
So if you look at the base stats of the various suit sizes, you will see a trend
- light - low HP/profile, high speed/precision/range/stamina
- medium - middle ground of everything
- heavy - low speed/precision/range/stamina, high HP/profile
These attributes can all (mostly) be altered by modules. biotics for speed/stamina, electronics for precision/profile/range, and armor/shield mods for HP.
ALL of the module groups share the same type of modifiers, percentage based stacking penalized modifiers, all except for the HP modules.
All of the module groups can be useful for boosting their suits performance relative to their own class while not impeeding on other classes, all except for the HP modules.
When viewed in this light, it is quite obvious which module group is the outliar. HP modules.
If one group of modules has been a CONSTANT imbalancing factor, it has been HP modules. First it was HP stacked logis and now HP stacked scouts, the absolute values of the HP modules does not fit well with a game that is otherwise balanced around percentage based stacking penalized modules, and this should change.
Changing shield extenders and armor hardners to percentage based modules seems to be the only way forward if a forward thinking approach to suit balance is used.
The benefits:
- base HP will atually matter within classes and across suit sizes
- brick tanking becomes less viable on EVERY SUIT
- increasing suit fitting meta (no longer will 4 x extenders be better than 3 extenders and a dmg mod)
I am not so concerned with the exact values of the individual modules (as this can be iterated upon) as I am about HP and HP module interplay within classes and across sizes.
What do you think?
Fixing swarms
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
Red Whines.
689
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Posted - 2014.05.22 21:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:So if you look at the base stats of the various suit sizes, you will see a trend
- light - low HP/profile, high speed/precision/range/stamina
- medium - middle ground of everything
- heavy - low speed/precision/range/stamina, high HP/profile
These attributes can all (mostly) be altered by modules. biotics for speed/stamina, electronics for precision/profile/range, and armor/shield mods for HP. ALL of the module groups share the same type of modifiers, percentage based stacking penalized modifiers, all except for the HP modules. All of the module groups can be useful for boosting their suits performance relative to their own class while not impeeding on other classes, all except for the HP modules. When viewed in this light, it is quite obvious which module group is the outliar. HP modules. If one group of modules has been a CONSTANT imbalancing factor, it has been HP modules. First it was HP stacked logis and now HP stacked scouts, the absolute values of the HP modules does not fit well with a game that is otherwise balanced around percentage based stacking penalized modules, and this should change. Changing shield extenders and armor hardners to percentage based modules seems to be the only way forward if a forward thinking approach to suit balance is used. The benefits:
- base HP will atually matter within classes and across suit sizes
- brick tanking becomes less viable on EVERY SUIT
- increasing suit fitting meta (no longer will 4 x extenders be better than 3 extenders and a dmg mod)
I am not so concerned with the exact values of the individual modules (as this can be iterated upon) as I am about HP and HP module interplay within classes and across sizes. What do you think?
+1110000
For % armor modules instead of Hp vlaues.
Would finally make the Amarr a real tanking suits. |
CLONE117
True Pros Forever
790
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Posted - 2014.05.22 21:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
im still not so sure.it has the high chance of making lower end gear useless at nearly everything in general which could lead to a worse npe.
even so. flat hp percentages are very different from percent based dmg mods and such.
dust 514 shall be eternal.
pve for dust 514.
oh look. FF somehow made dust better!.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1084
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Posted - 2014.05.23 03:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
CLONE117 wrote:im still not so sure.it has the high chance of making lower end gear useless at nearly everything in general which could lead to a worse npe.
even so. flat hp percentages are very different from percent based dmg mods and such.
Can you explain that last statement? I am not sure how they differ.
Also, if CCP were to use figures such as idk.. +40/35/30% (just spitballng, no thought put into this) it would not drastically effect the max HP of heavies while still making 1 or 2 tanks modules completely reasonable on the lighter suits.
you would get +108/94/81% (proto/adv/std)HP for fitting 4 modules of a certain type.
I mean these numbers, and OF COURSE the base HP of suits may have to be looked at.... but in a game that is nearly exclusively based upon dimishing returns and percentile increases HP mods as they are remain completely out of place.
As an example, a scout can fit an extra ~ 750 eHP, effectively multiplying their base HP by 4 and coming within 1-200 eHP of medium suits. At the same time, the scout will have more speed, dampening, scanning range/precision, stamina, stamina regen, and possibly more equipment slots. This makes them absolutely competitive in both assaulting and light-logi work.
You can not make effective asault and logi suits that are good scouts (the cloak bonus alone makes this impossible).
Basically, the scouts enjoy such immense advantages in their base stats that they really should not be able to compete on any level with medium or heavy suits when HP is concerned.
Fixing swarms
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Malkai Inos
Any Given Day
1353
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Posted - 2014.05.23 03:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
CLONE117 wrote:im still not so sure.it has the high chance of making lower end gear useless at nearly everything in general which could lead to a worse npe.
even so. flat hp percentages are very different from percent based dmg mods and such. I think this is already the case especially with hp mods precicely because of their scaling.
A few days ago I decided to upgrade my most used suits to mostly proto tank mods wherever cpu/pg allowed for it without large sacrifices. On my main suit the end result was a ISK cost increase of 15% compared to an eHP increase of around 35%. Had i specced into proto plates i'd probably squeeze one in aswell for another 15% eHP without further increase in cost.
Unless you simply cannot miss out on certain role defining mods, going full on proto brick is always viable and usually superior to trying to balance tank with something else.
Another thing I noticed is that the only other type of module that scales in absolute numbers - weapons - increases by around 6-8% dmg/range from STD to PRO while plates/extenders double/triple, respectively.
Even if relative values aren't the solution, this kind of increase is way out of line compared to everything else.
You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
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medomai grey
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
774
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Posted - 2014.05.23 04:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Magnus Amadeuss wrote:So if you look at the base stats of the various suit sizes, you will see a trend - medium - middle ground of everything
What do you think? I think you need to click on the link below and do some light reading.
Medium frame EHP is not medium
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1088
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Posted - 2014.05.23 06:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
medomai grey wrote:Magnus Amadeuss wrote:So if you look at the base stats of the various suit sizes, you will see a trend - medium - middle ground of everything
What do you think? I think you need to click on the link below and do some light reading.
C'mon man, I read your post, upvoted the OP, and was the third person to respond in the thread to express my support.
I do agree that base eHP values are a bit wonky, that is an issue raised in your thread. This one is about a side-issue in your thread, HP modules just beng completely out of sync with the rest of the game.
I do think that if CCP were to look at changing HP modules first, then the medium base HP values would definately be next up on the plate.
Fixing swarms
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