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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2781
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Posted - 2014.05.07 10:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
As you are all aware CCP Z, is propsing a shake up to the skill tree in Project Legion. Unfortunately I don't like where it is headed.
Before I truly begin I would like to draw your attention to the following Video
This was something that brought me to DUST and should do again with Legion.
Z's current proposal is to divide a singular skill tree into designated roles, such as Assault, Heavy, Tanker and so forth, with each role having an almagation of modules, weapons and equipment deemed connected/relevant to this role. The intention of this is to make it easier for new players to get into a specialised role quicker. However a downside is that fitting variety will be reduced, since, if I have 10 mill in the Assault Tree and my Friend has 10 mill in the Assault Tree, we will both have access to the same amount of equipment, thus we are more likely to reach the same fitting. Whereas now in DUST, me having 10 mill and my friend having 10 mill results in widely different fits and weapons, even if we skilled into the same suit. This diversity is what we should be aiming for.
I would suggest with skill progression instead is to maintain 2 trees, 1 for infantry, 1 for vehicles. This splits into Weaponry, Suits and Upgrades, much as the categories are now. However for example lets look at the Suits branch in the infantry tree.
Lvl 1: No Prerequisite
Unlocks: CONCORD Medium Dropsuit - Standard Issue
Lvl 2: Requires Lvl 1
Unlocks: CONCORD Light Dropsuit | CONCORD Heavy Dropsuit | CONCORD Medium Dropsuit - Aleysium Issue
Lvl 3:
Requires Lvl 2: Light Dropsuit
Unlocks: Minmatar Light Dropsuit | Caldari Light Dropsuit | Amarr Light Dropsuit | Gallante Light Dropsuit
. . . . . ad infitum
Lvl 4:
Requires Lvl 3: Minmatar Light Dropsuit
Unlocks: Minmatar Scout Light Dropsuit | Minmatar Brawler Light Dropsuit
. . . . . ad inifitum
Lvl 5:
Requires Lvl 4: Minmatar Scout Light Dropsuit
Unlocks: Mordu's 'Nightstalker' Scout Dropsuit | Z's 'Marathon' Scout Dropsuit
. . . . . ad infitum
At lower levels you have more choice, at level 2 skilling into all 3 suits is neither SP intensive of difficult to achieve. This allows new players to decide what kind of role they like best, after this Specalization begins, while taking 1 branch does not exclude you from the others the choies upon each level refine you style of play a little more.
With each iteration you lean more towards 1 style of play than another, until eventually, the officer suit of your choice synergises perfectly with your play. The only time it makes sense to follow Z's progression is with vehicles and pilot suits, assuming that Pilot suits are compulsory for closed cockpit vehicles.
I have also posted this I Feddback and Discussion if you wish to discuss it there.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Kaughst
Nyain San
Dirt Nap Squad.
481
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Posted - 2014.05.07 11:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
The problem with the new progression system I heard is that you can go into one skill tree but if you want to diversify with a different weapon you need to climb up another tree, this is supposedly remedied with having a 'wildcard system' per class where older players concerned with having specific weapons need not worry about that and it is more of a way for new players to progress without having to worry. There is also the issue where modules will have more diversity with each class and I think it relates to this http://youtu.be/vxhrGVv0NuQ but how those modules and things interact between classes is puzzling.
"He said he has a alt in STB."
"Everyone has a alt in STB."
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2782
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kaughst wrote:The problem with the new progression system I heard is that you can go into one skill tree but if you want to diversify with a different weapon you need to climb up another tree, this is supposedly remedied with having a 'wildcard system' per class where older players concerned with having specific weapons need not worry about that and it is more of a way for new players to progress without having to worry. There is also the issue where modules will have more diversity with each class and I think it relates to this http://youtu.be/vxhrGVv0NuQ but how those modules and things interact between classes is puzzling.
Yes, after going through his presentation again, his dropsuit progression follows the one propossed above, they problem stems from the fact that as you climb the tree you unlock specific items.
In the presentation for example he shows progressing through medium dropsuits to a 'demolitions' specified logi, this unlocks the mass driver and remote explosives for use. However we both know that this is not the best suit for a demolition fit, you are now forced to play that style, even if you don't understand it's limitations.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Dirt Nap Squad.
3949
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Just keep the system we have now and overhaul vehicles so they have capacitor along with webifiers and neutralizers for killing them as AV.
The dumbing down of the skill system has nothing to do with balancing the game. It's a play for cash on CCP's part because they are attempting to achieve mass appeal on a game that will never have mass appeal. The guy holding the lecture was the monetization director. That should give you a pretty good idea as to their motivations regarding change to basically anything.
And let me remind you that if a complete overhaul happens to the skill system now we will be facing ANOTHER two years of insane imbalance like we had with Dust. |
Byozuma Kegawa
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
258
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Honestly the tree proposed for Legion seems more confusing than what we presently have by alot. Racial specific skills also occur AFTER you've chosen a specialty... so one can only assume that that means we're stuck in a generic dropsuit before we can branch into faction specific designs. Not what I signed on for. If I wanted that I'd have never requested a refund for the Sever dropsuit way back. Racial choice should be the first choice, not the last choice. |
Tallen Ellecon
1905
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
The skill progression really doesn't need to be changed. An "ISIS" or certificate system would do wonder for new players, and doesn't limit the customization.
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Fenix Alexarr
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
91
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tallen Ellecon wrote:The skill progression really doesn't need to be changed. An "ISIS" or certificate system would do wonder for new players, and doesn't limit the customization.
This is the most sensible approach to 'guiding players' to paths in the sandbox without limiting where they can go. +1000 |
Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
Final Resolution.
1707
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
I don't know if anyone has played it but Secret World is an MMO that has no levels. You unlock Skill Points with so much experience that can be used to buy into Skills in a giant shared skill tree. Because of this, there are no classes. What there are, however, are Templates. For example, there is the Grifter. Clicking on Grifter gives you an overlay of the skills you should take in each tree. The build is around summoning pets and using a shotgun (been a while since I played so foggy memory). The skills let you see how they can help. "Okay, so I get this because it makes my allies do more damage, I take this so the enemies do less damage, and then I take AoE stuff with the shotgun to be able to burn everyone done with AoE damage that also debuffs."
It is kind of like the ISIS system and their certificates. "We suggest these skills to be a Support player" and the like. It is less of a change from what we have so veteran's SP and items don't have to be "applicable" but provides information to new players in what each thing is supposed to do. My guess, however, is that CCP wants to dramatically reduce the sinks in DUST. I mean, it is between 6-8 million to get prototype in a single role. In beta, it was about 4 million, though more for Logistics because of equipment. The increased sinks from every Core Skill getting a bump in the multiplier, 3 ranks in Frame to get to the specialized suits, and the general increase of skills (before it was one skill to get rechargers and extenders IIRC, now there are three skills) adds a lot of time to be able to do stuff. CCP wanted it to "be days and a week to unlock something" rather than the 2 or 3 weeks it takes now to max a skill with a multiplier higher than 1.
I like the idea of the Role thing but it just isn't fleshed out enough for us to say "this is crap" or "this is amazing." I will say that getting our SP to be "applicable" is going to be a bloody nightmare...
"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1878
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Posted - 2014.05.07 18:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tallen Ellecon wrote:The skill progression really doesn't need to be changed. An "ISIS" or certificate system would do wonder for new players, and doesn't limit the customization.
I completely agree. CCP, please get the EVE ISIS team to do a mockup of the DUST skill tree and offer that as a comparison to CCP Z's progression system.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2783
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Posted - 2014.05.07 18:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Byozuma Kegawa wrote:Honestly the tree proposed for Legion seems more confusing than what we presently have by alot. Racial specific skills also occur AFTER you've chosen a specialty... so one can only assume that that means we're stuck in a generic dropsuit before we can branch into faction specific designs. Not what I signed on for. If I wanted that I'd have never requested a refund for the Sever dropsuit way back. Racial choice should be the first choice, not the last choice.
To the contrary I believe Factional Choice should appear about halfway. CCP Z shows that you choose your specialist role, then further specialise with a factional suit, then again with a factional specalist suit. Which I quite like, in terms of getting people into their roles, it's quite good afterall, if you don't understand the difference between say a scout and an assault, having to choose a faction will just confuse it even further.
Instead the problem arises from the fact tht going down specific set 'roles' rewards you with specific equipment modues and weapons. So for example if I want to play as a Minmatar Sentinel with a Mass Driver I have to go down the sentinel tree to unlock the suit, then I must go down the Logistics tree to unlock the Mass Driver
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Byozuma Kegawa
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
258
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Posted - 2014.05.07 18:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
I honestly don't mind equipment being specific to certain trees, but given that dropsuits are going to be this permanent thing I don't want to be wearing General Specific Dropsuit n008 when I'm an Amarr. I'd like to wear an Amarr dropsuit. I was overjoyed when they changed our default dropsuits here in Dust to match the faction we chose. This new skill system now sounds like we're going back to how Chromosome was with the dropsuits... not looking forward to that at all. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2784
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Posted - 2014.05.07 19:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Byozuma Kegawa wrote:I honestly don't mind equipment being specific to certain trees, but given that dropsuits are going to be this permanent thing I don't want to be wearing General Specific Dropsuit n008 when I'm an Amarr. I'd like to wear an Amarr dropsuit. I was overjoyed when they changed our default dropsuits here in Dust to match the faction we chose. This new skill system now sounds like we're going back to how Chromosome was with the dropsuits... not looking forward to that at all.
Only to start off with, you begin with nondescrept suit version 7, but then after you choose your specilization i.e Assault/Logistics you then choose a faction base suit
i.e Amarr Logistics
then from then you get an extra choice above i.e Caldar Special Operations Assault this effectively gives 32 end level suits, not including Commando or pilot suits. My only concern with the system is the weapons. Part of the whole point of this game is that you could play what you wanted.
Instead of unlocking equipment and weapons I would prefer if they just gave you bonuses instead, which encourages using them but not forcing them to do so.
Looks like its back to FPS Military Shooter 56
Monkey Mac - Just another pile of discarded ashes on the battlefield!
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Cyrus Militani
Leon Conglomerate
45
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Posted - 2014.05.07 19:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
So you have to be a certain class to use a specific weapon? And this is supposed to be simpler? WTF!? What the hell is wrong with having a separate weapon skill tree like it is now? |
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