DUST Search - player skill vs ISK expenditure

Bethhy wrote:

KingBabar wrote:

At a certain point its mostly about latency and connection I'm afraid.

I go up against a certain group of players, like "Latino killer corp" - one game I will wreck them, they're nothing more than organized scrubs.

The next game I get totally annihalted by the same guys, I play the asme way but for some reason tracking them and keeping my aim on them is nearly impossible.

I normally do a lot worse in PC than pubs, AGAINST THE SAME POEPLE, but that is to be expected when you have 28-30 US players and one or two euros...

It's not that it's hard to track them per say... Just that when those cases happen frame rate and Server/client updating are so challenged... its near impossible for you to get the correct input to consistently track them.

Enemies frequently move in stop motion because of the frame rate dips, A lot of console only players don't even know the difference sadly... Then you add in the challenged Server/Client updating system and often the enemy is never quite where it appears on your screen even if you did Aim correctly. And it becomes such an inconsistent aiming and tracking system in DUST.

We have been asking for proper controls and aiming mechanics since closed beta, along with a proper dynamic Hit detection system... They are the two worst features of the game and have been all through Uprising.... And worse usually give the most inconsistent game experience out of any one feature DUST 514 has.

FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.

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Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 43	Posted - 2014.04.26 18:05:00 - [1] - Quote Which should trump the other? Should a player in a more expensive fit be virtually invulnerable to a player in a cheaper fit, even if the cheaper player is more skilled? Should a skilled player in a militia fit be able to win in a 1v1 with a less-skilled player with Proto gear. Or, should it REQUIRE 2-3 players in cheaper fits to take out a single player in an expensive fit, regardless of skill, just because that one player's fit costs more ISK? Discuss.
Obodiah Garro Tech guard RISE of LEGION 997	Posted - 2014.04.26 18:49:00 - [2] - Quote skill trumps all Nemo me impune lacessit
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 7287	Posted - 2014.04.26 18:52:00 - [3] - Quote Player Skill. If things were balanced around ISK Expenditure, then everyone would be forced to purchase the same gear to remain viable and/or competitive; effectively killing the diversity that is supposed to be the main 'selling' point of DUST. Though I'm willing to be that most pilots will claim ISK expenditure, as they desperately need something to make up for their lack of skill. HAV > Infantry > AV < HAV [s]Text[/s] <------ That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Shiyou Hidiyoshi Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 613	Posted - 2014.04.26 18:57:00 - [4] - Quote It takes a long time to get a proto suit with good stuff on it. By that time, the player is already skilled to a certain degree on many things in Dust (or should be). So they can actually do pretty good without the gear. Those players who went into their proto suit asap without getting anything else or knowing how to play get wrecked. I did a social experiment recently. I ran a proto suit solo and got 30 kills minimum most games. People got mad I then ran a ADV suit and got around the same scores. People were still mad Difference Proto = people say you only won because you have more isk and better gear (even though I only have 3 million isk...) Non-proto: people say you are hacking/cheating "If I get killed by you, then you are amazing and are better than everyone else in the game. If I kill you, then I are a hacker and had complete advantage over you while everything was against you." - Yoshi on hater logic 101 "I don't always lock threads but when I do, I vigorously masterbait afterwards." - CCP Lockingbro
Henchmen21 Planet Express LLC 997	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:01:00 - [5] - Quote I wouldn't mind militia weapons having more of a draw back then fitting requirements. Your game f'ing sucks, but I'll still play it.... damn you! Henchmen21: Infantry Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 187	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:03:00 - [6] - Quote In my opinion, the tiny player base this game has is based upon sp disparity which is primarily an issue because of gear tiers. It's obviously a subjective question on whether the game will be better, but as best as I can determine from anecdotes of why people I have met quit this game, making the disparity greater performance wise would only drive away more players, which is the best way to gauge such a question. There will always be a few people that like any game but objectively good games are well received by many. That said what drives people away from this game boil down to 3 different issues which two I will explain are connected: 1. SP disparity: The other guys have better gear then you and dying over and over because of this doesn't feel good. There is definitely a difference in skill, however being able to turn around in proto gear after someone ambushes you in STD and starts widdling down your buffer and kill them skews any argument of skill > Gear. 2. The Nerf Hammer: This and Sp disparity are connected in my opinion. Why does it hurt to spend months on certain skill trees only to have them rendered impotent? Because, it will take more months to adjust and in the meantime you will get beat down by the SP disparity of you having chosen the wrong path that was "readjusted" by CCP. This is where the hate on FOTM and spotlighting comes from as well. So another suit gets to shine arbitrarily without any prior planning or knowledge, as marxistly fair as that would appear it literally ruins the meta game. This could be remedied if CCP refunded skills that they altered dramatically (Like 1.7 Swarms,) but that would cut into their greed to **** people over and hope they will buy boosters in response, which is part of why no one plays this game. Of course, if players didn't buy boosters, CCP wouldn't take issue with refunding SP when they drastically alter a tree. It's just good will but CCP has no interest in growing their consumer base with. Obvious money grabbing tactics always has its defenders but the majority of gamers backlash on these things. As has been said time and time again, it's impossible to live with the decisions you never made. But I digress, nerfing wouldn't be so severe if not for SP disparity and its massive arbitrary time sink. 3. Boredom: This is always an occurrence in every game and for the most part can and should never be too concerning. New content is good, but it shouldn't take priority if your game is buggy. Also general rule of thumb CCP ignores: Vertical progression (Game modes and improved NPE/matchmaking) would be a greater contributor to bringing back old players and bringing in new players then Horizontal progression (More weapons, suits, vehicles, etc.) In other words, Drone combat or custom matchmaking would be far more rewarding in the long term then a combat rifle. So in conclusion and in a very round about way, I think gear disparity is fine, and that the real issue becomes what options players have towards this disparity (actual matchmaking) or how logical CCP can behave at a given time (An extreme phobia of "ruining" game balance with SP refunds while ignoring the absolutely trashed isk economy.) As to the issue of requirements, if player skill is equal, it will require 2-3 STD fits to take down one proto fit on a level playing field, but there isn't any real matchmaking so it's moot.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 1842	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:09:00 - [7] - Quote Mojo XXXIII wrote: Which should trump the other? Should a player in a more expensive fit be virtually invulnerable to a player in a cheaper fit, even if the cheaper player is more skilled? Should a skilled player in a militia fit be able to win in a 1v1 with a less-skilled player with Proto gear. Or, should it REQUIRE 2-3 players in cheaper fits to take out a single player in an expensive fit, regardless of skill, just because that one player's fit costs more ISK? Discuss. Player Skill should trump all. DUST 514 was like this Pre Aim Assist days... There was no two people who aimed the same.. Every duel was unique and yielded different results. Someone would have the better of the aim on that Duel but you would get them the next kinda mentality.. With Aim assist and how it works with DUST's Hit detection system... Everyone has that 80-90% bullet accuracy when their crosshair's turn "Red" So if everyone has been equalized on the Aiming aspect of DUST 514 on purpose.. all that separates Players is situational awareness, Character Skill points and ISK. This is why DUST is so boring right now... After Your DUST character progression gets to the end game and your sitting with a pile of ISK an a pile of SP... There is nothing left in DUST. That sense of an individual improving their player skill with each hour they sit down to play DUST is gone. That is what made DUST 514 such an addictive product and the magical spark DUST has lost.
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 2253	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:11:00 - [8] - Quote At a certain point its mostly about latency and connection I'm afraid. I go up against a certain group of players, like "Latino killer corp" - one game I will wreck them, they're nothing more than organized scrubs. The next game I get totally annihalted by the same guys, I play the asme way but for some reason tracking them and keeping my aim on them is nearly impossible. I normally do a lot worse in PC than pubs, AGAINST THE SAME POEPLE, but that is to be expected when you have 28-30 US players and one or two euros... FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.
Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 57	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:17:00 - [9] - Quote Ok, just to clarify, I am referring to a player's actual skill at the game, not the amount of SP he has aquired. Let's say, for argument's sake, you've got 2 players in a 1v1 situation: Player A, who's a very casual gamer, has only actually played a couple of times, but has amassed enough Passive SP to qualify for Proto-level gear, and has either been given ISK or used Aurum to buy it. And Player B, whose played religiously since closed beta, knows the game inside out, but has just left the Academy with his most recent alt. Should Player B's gaming skill be enough to overcome Player A's superior equipment, or should better gear be enough to bridge the gap of experience and skill? Should Player B's skills as a gamer alone be enough to beat Player A by himself, or should it be NECESSARY to use teamwork, and attack in numbers to defeat Player A, simply because his gear is better/more expensive?
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 1842	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:25:00 - [10] - Quote KingBabar wrote: At a certain point its mostly about latency and connection I'm afraid. I go up against a certain group of players, like "Latino killer corp" - one game I will wreck them, they're nothing more than organized scrubs. The next game I get totally annihalted by the same guys, I play the asme way but for some reason tracking them and keeping my aim on them is nearly impossible. I normally do a lot worse in PC than pubs, AGAINST THE SAME POEPLE, but that is to be expected when you have 28-30 US players and one or two euros... It's not that it's hard to track them per say... Just that when those cases happen frame rate and Server/client updating are so challenged... its near impossible for you to get the correct input to consistently track them. Enemies frequently move in stop motion because of the frame rate dips, A lot of console only players don't even know the difference sadly... Then you add in the challenged Server/Client updating system and often the enemy is never quite where it appears on your screen even if you did Aim correctly. And it becomes such an inconsistent aiming and tracking system in DUST. We have been asking for proper controls and aiming mechanics since closed beta, along with a proper dynamic Hit detection system... They are the two worst features of the game and have been all through Uprising.... And worse usually give the most inconsistent game experience out of any one feature DUST 514 has.

Bormir1r Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 406	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:29:00 - [11] - Quote Mojo XXXIII wrote: Which should trump the other? Should a player in a more expensive fit be virtually invulnerable to a player in a cheaper fit, even if the cheaper player is more skilled? Should a skilled player in a militia fit be able to win in a 1v1 with a less-skilled player with Proto gear. Or, should it REQUIRE 2-3 players in cheaper fits to take out a single player in an expensive fit, regardless of skill, just because that one player's fit costs more ISK? Discuss. Depends on the situation. Are they going head on and they both see each other? Is one getting the first shot on? You'd have to define the situation in order to get a proper answer. "One does not simply" run 11.12 m/s. Oh wait, mk.0 Scouts do it... Oops.
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect 2253	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:35:00 - [12] - Quote Bethhy wrote: KingBabar wrote: At a certain point its mostly about latency and connection I'm afraid. I go up against a certain group of players, like "Latino killer corp" - one game I will wreck them, they're nothing more than organized scrubs. The next game I get totally annihalted by the same guys, I play the asme way but for some reason tracking them and keeping my aim on them is nearly impossible. I normally do a lot worse in PC than pubs, AGAINST THE SAME POEPLE, but that is to be expected when you have 28-30 US players and one or two euros... It's not that it's hard to track them per say... Just that when those cases happen frame rate and Server/client updating are so challenged... its near impossible for you to get the correct input to consistently track them. Enemies frequently move in stop motion because of the frame rate dips, A lot of console only players don't even know the difference sadly... Then you add in the challenged Server/Client updating system and often the enemy is never quite where it appears on your screen even if you did Aim correctly. And it becomes such an inconsistent aiming and tracking system in DUST. We have been asking for proper controls and aiming mechanics since closed beta, along with a proper dynamic Hit detection system... They are the two worst features of the game and have been all through Uprising.... And worse usually give the most inconsistent game experience out of any one feature DUST 514 has. There you nailed it 100% - I call it "inconsistent input lag" - it makes me close to useless in some cases. I've had PC games where I die 5+ times straight, then I move to an outside objective and I suddenly get 5+ kills straight.... FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 725	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:35:00 - [13] - Quote player skill always otherwise you might as well kill the NPE, non-vet players and the poor (isk) as they will stand no chance at all. You would also be forcing all vets into using their proto suits.
Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 57	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:38:00 - [14] - Quote Bormir1r wrote: Mojo XXXIII wrote: Which should trump the other? Should a player in a more expensive fit be virtually invulnerable to a player in a cheaper fit, even if the cheaper player is more skilled? Should a skilled player in a militia fit be able to win in a 1v1 with a less-skilled player with Proto gear. Or, should it REQUIRE 2-3 players in cheaper fits to take out a single player in an expensive fit, regardless of skill, just because that one player's fit costs more ISK? Discuss. Depends on the situation. Are they going head on and they both see each other? Is one getting the first shot on? You'd have to define the situation in order to get a proper answer. I'm just talking in very general terms. Assuming all else being equal, neither has the drop on the other (unless, maybe, the more skilled player used said skill to engage on favorable terms - that can be considered part of the gaming "skill", after all), both are Infantry and appropriately equipped to combat Infantry, and are using comparable weapons.
Yan Darn Science For Death 675	Posted - 2014.04.26 19:55:00 - [15] - Quote Mojo XXXIII wrote: Bormir1r wrote: Mojo XXXIII wrote: Which should trump the other? Should a player in a more expensive fit be virtually invulnerable to a player in a cheaper fit, even if the cheaper player is more skilled? Should a skilled player in a militia fit be able to win in a 1v1 with a less-skilled player with Proto gear. Or, should it REQUIRE 2-3 players in cheaper fits to take out a single player in an expensive fit, regardless of skill, just because that one player's fit costs more ISK? Discuss. Depends on the situation. Are they going head on and they both see each other? Is one getting the first shot on? You'd have to define the situation in order to get a proper answer. I'm just talking in very general terms. Assuming all else being equal, neither has the drop on the other (unless, maybe, the more skilled player used said skill to engage on favorable terms - that can be considered part of the gaming "skill", after all), both are Infantry and appropriately equipped to combat Infantry, and are using comparable weapons. (also assuming comparable connectivity, so lag is not a deciding factor) Well then naturally - the proto would win, even with (especially?) ewar scouts since the number of slots is directly relational whether you appear on someone TacNet. The difference between the ADV Gal and STD ability to fit precison enchancers is a clear example of that. The ADV wins if both fit for max ewar unless they both have a dampeners on, in which case being able to cloak longer would still gve the ADV an advantage. However - 2 STD gals would always win if they alternated cloaking, so if the ADV attacked the visible one, the other could kill it. Since they both have the same EHP and damage. What this actually adds to the game is anybodies guess. Especially when the difference is between Gank/Tank capability. That's where things get really uninteresting. ISK = Victory would only even begin to make sense if there was a way to make ISK that didn't mean fighting each other (ignoring PCville obviously). It makes more sense for diversity and specialisations in fits to be a greater factor than how many more mods you can stack. Which is basically all ISK gets you right now. The Ghost of Bravo
843-BANE BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 1174	Posted - 2014.04.27 00:22:00 - [16] - Quote You could stick, idk, Natalie Kush in a Proto Gallente sentinel with full armour and stick me in a STD Gallente heavy. Who would win? Me. Skill > all. Director // BurgezzE.T.F // 843 Remember, there might be some momentary discomfort.
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 4053	Posted - 2014.04.27 00:24:00 - [17] - Quote This is a no brainer...skills of course. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
Mojo XXXIII Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 62	Posted - 2014.04.27 00:31:00 - [18] - Quote Alright then, what about vehicles? By the very same logic, should it require 3-4 players using teamwork and a coordinated effort to take out a single player in an HAV or Dropship, simply because it's expensive, or should a skillful enough player be capable of taking them on 1v1?
KING CHECKMATE Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 5245	Posted - 2014.04.27 00:32:00 - [19] - Quote Mojo XXXIII wrote: Which should trump the other? Should a player in a more expensive fit be virtually invulnerable to a player in a cheaper fit, even if the cheaper player is more skilled? Should a skilled player in a militia fit be able to win in a 1v1 with a less-skilled player with Proto gear. Or, should it REQUIRE 2-3 players in cheaper fits to take out a single player in an expensive fit, regardless of skill, just because that one player's fit costs more ISK? Discuss. I can run my C-i Blueprint with Toxin AR and Toxin SMG for a suit with around 550 total EHP and still do pretty well even vs protos. (maybe 15-4 or 18-8 and so on...) Like drones? = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153604&find=unread


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