DUST Search - basic frames vs. specialized

BL4CKST4R wrote:

deepfried salad gilliam wrote:

currently we all get stuck with adv level basic frames and it sorta just a a skill that sits their
i do not like this

basic frames should
a. get a general purpose bonus, idk what just an extremely generic one

b. be affected by the racial bonus of frames of its same size so the
ex. mimnatar heavy frame gets 3% sheild resist to lasers 2% armor resist to hybrid rail. and 2% dmg to light projectile and explosive weapons
so if i have lvl 3 commando and 2 sentinel my mimnatar basic heavy suit gets + 6% dmg bonus and + 6% sheild resist and + 2% armor resist regardless of what level the basic frame is at
(still doesn't really help light frames)

c. give the basic frames an extra slot and pg/cpu. and give the specialized more role oriented bonuses, maily only assaults need a bonus change

d. make them dramatically cheaper

or some combination of the above

Why would a basic heavy need 6% damage to light weapons? That part of the bonus should go mainly to the commando only not the heavy frame.

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deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 659	Posted - 2014.04.25 04:58:00 - [1] - Quote currently we all get stuck with adv level basic frames and it sorta just a a skill that sits their i do not like this basic frames should a. get a general purpose bonus, idk what just an extremely generic one b. be affected by the racial bonus of frames of its same size so the ex. mimnatar heavy frame gets 3% sheild resist to lasers 2% armor resist to hybrid rail. and 2% dmg to light projectile and explosive weapons so if i have lvl 3 commando and 2 sentinel my mimnatar basic heavy suit gets + 6% dmg bonus and + 6% sheild resist and + 2% armor resist regardless of what level the basic frame is at (still doesn't really help light frames) c. give the basic frames an extra slot and pg/cpu. and give the specialized more role oriented bonuses, maily only assaults need a bonus change d. make them dramatically cheaper or some combination of the above It'll help define roles, i promise:)
BL4CKST4R WarRavens Final Resolution. 2591	Posted - 2014.04.25 10:22:00 - [2] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: currently we all get stuck with adv level basic frames and it sorta just a a skill that sits their i do not like this basic frames should a. get a general purpose bonus, idk what just an extremely generic one b. be affected by the racial bonus of frames of its same size so the ex. mimnatar heavy frame gets 3% sheild resist to lasers 2% armor resist to hybrid rail. and 2% dmg to light projectile and explosive weapons so if i have lvl 3 commando and 2 sentinel my mimnatar basic heavy suit gets + 6% dmg bonus and + 6% sheild resist and + 2% armor resist regardless of what level the basic frame is at (still doesn't really help light frames) c. give the basic frames an extra slot and pg/cpu. and give the specialized more role oriented bonuses, maily only assaults need a bonus change d. make them dramatically cheaper or some combination of the above Why would a basic heavy need 6% damage to light weapons? That part of the bonus should go mainly to the commando only not the heavy frame. For the Federation!
xXGXx MAN RisingSuns Dark Taboo 5	Posted - 2014.04.25 13:41:00 - [3] - Quote That's why it is a basic suit, its not supposed to have any specific bonuses because it does not have a role. I could see them being cheaper or having different slot combos though. Improvise, adapt, overcome! R.I.P-MAG Amarr Logibro
Hoover Damn H.A.R.V.E.S.T. Lokun Listamenn 113	Posted - 2014.04.25 14:14:00 - [4] - Quote Cheaper, different slot combos, it's own specialization of some sort--whatever the case, I need a reason to use it. There's nothing it does that other suits don't do better, cheaper. "Any job worth doing with a laser is worth doing with many, many lasers." - Unknown
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 664	Posted - 2014.04.26 14:20:00 - [5] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: deepfried salad gilliam wrote: currently we all get stuck with adv level basic frames and it sorta just a a skill that sits their i do not like this basic frames should a. get a general purpose bonus, idk what just an extremely generic one b. be affected by the racial bonus of frames of its same size so the ex. mimnatar heavy frame gets 3% sheild resist to lasers 2% armor resist to hybrid rail. and 2% dmg to light projectile and explosive weapons so if i have lvl 3 commando and 2 sentinel my mimnatar basic heavy suit gets + 6% dmg bonus and + 6% sheild resist and + 2% armor resist regardless of what level the basic frame is at (still doesn't really help light frames) c. give the basic frames an extra slot and pg/cpu. and give the specialized more role oriented bonuses, maily only assaults need a bonus change d. make them dramatically cheaper or some combination of the above Why would a basic heavy need 6% damage to light weapons? That part of the bonus should go mainly to the commando only not the heavy frame. because why not? It'll help define roles, i promise:)
Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 349	Posted - 2014.04.26 15:46:00 - [6] - Quote I've been thinking on ways CCP could make the Frames more attractive. 1) Cut their Price tag down below their role specialized variants 2) Give them more slots to play with (more modules should bring the final price tag to about equal or cheaper than the role specialized variants) -OR- 3) Give them a defensive perk of some description. For Example: Mediums Amarr %bonus to plates -OR- minor bonus to Armor Resistances Caldari %bonus to Extenders -OR- minor bonus to shield resistances Gallente %bonus to Armor Repair Modules -OR- +1hp/s passive armor reps Minmatar %bonus to Rechargers/Energizers -OR- Regulators I'd prefer the price cut and the more slot layout, personally. But if we don't get those than a bonus is called for. The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 71	Posted - 2014.04.26 20:41:00 - [7] - Quote Yes to d but the rest is meh. 1) Bonuses should be suit specific e.g Amarr Assault gets 4% resistance per level of the amarr medium skill and 10% bonus to laser weapon damage per level of the assault skill 2) There should be different basic frames with different focuses e.g. One caldari medium frame would have a more combat oriented role with 5% bonus to range of hybrid weapons per level of the caldari medium skill, the other one would be support oriented with a second equipment slot and 10% bonus shield transfer amount and range 3) Specializations should be way better than basic frames e.g. A damage dealing focused amarr medium suit would get one damage bonus to laser weapons, have tech 1 resistances and a versatile slot layout. The amarr assault would get two damage focused bonuses like rof and heat build up, have much better resistances and also get more slots and pg. 4) Specializations must force you to play a role A logi suit built to slay should always be beaten by a noob in basic damage focused suit of any kind. It must not be possible to be versatile in t2 suits anymore @AmlSeb on Twitter BPO exchange: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1852003
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2076	Posted - 2014.04.26 20:45:00 - [8] - Quote Take off b, but otherwise yea. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 774	Posted - 2014.04.26 20:47:00 - [9] - Quote This is a bad idea because basic frames and role bonused frames are a bad idea. The foundation is bad. Don't try to build on it. Like you say, just get the Basic frame to 3 and then ignore it. Do that until CCP reworks the foundation. Thankfully EVE doesn't have basic hulls and role bonused hulls. What an awful system. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
AmlSeb Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 71	Posted - 2014.04.26 20:51:00 - [10] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: This is a bad idea because basic frames and role bonused frames are a bad idea. The foundation is bad. Don't try to build on it. Like you say, just get the Basic frame to 3 and then ignore it. Do that until CCP reworks the foundation. Thankfully EVE doesn't have basic hulls and role bonused hulls. What an awful system. I don-¦t know if trolling or just completely stupid @AmlSeb on Twitter BPO exchange: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1852003

Yan Darn Science For Death 680	Posted - 2014.04.27 02:00:00 - [11] - Quote The fact they went with tiers instead of 'Tech 2' specialisations is weird enough, but the situation with the basic frames is astounding - just another thing that hurts the NPE when you think about it (along with 'dead' levels in other skills...). The EVE system made way more sense when it came to skills/bonuses...it's the fact this is a bad copy rather than a reinvention really. The Ghost of Bravo
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 675	Posted - 2014.04.27 02:04:00 - [12] - Quote Yan Darn wrote: The fact they went with tiers instead of 'Tech 2' specialisations is weird enough, but the situation with the basic frames is astounding - just another thing that hurts the NPE when you think about it (along with 'dead' levels in other skills...). The EVE system made way more sense when it came to skills/bonuses...it's the fact this is a bad copy rather than a reinvention really. it should either be a good copy or complete rein-vision most spots in between just leave you in an awkward place It'll help define roles, i promise:)
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 775	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:27:00 - [13] - Quote AmlSeb wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: This is a bad idea because basic frames and role bonused frames are a bad idea. The foundation is bad. Don't try to build on it. Like you say, just get the Basic frame to 3 and then ignore it. Do that until CCP reworks the foundation. Thankfully EVE doesn't have basic hulls and role bonused hulls. What an awful system. I don-¦t know if trolling or just completely stupid I don-¦t know if trolling or just completely stupid What a moron. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 2919	Posted - 2014.04.27 15:45:00 - [14] - Quote Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: This is a bad idea because basic frames and role bonused frames are a bad idea. The foundation is bad. Don't try to build on it. Like you say, just get the Basic frame to 3 and then ignore it. Do that until CCP reworks the foundation. Thankfully EVE doesn't have basic hulls and role bonused hulls. What an awful system. Not sure if moronic or just sarcastic. Head of public relations from The Rainbow Effect.
Yan Darn Science For Death 697	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:10:00 - [15] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote: This is a bad idea because basic frames and role bonused frames are a bad idea. The foundation is bad. Don't try to build on it. Like you say, just get the Basic frame to 3 and then ignore it. Do that until CCP reworks the foundation. Thankfully EVE doesn't have basic hulls and role bonused hulls. What an awful system. Not sure if moronic or just sarcastic. He is technically right isn't he? All hulls have some kind of bonus affected by skills. Whether it be Gallente Frigate lv5 or interceptor lv5. No hull in EVE requires skill levels to use without those skills giving a bonus to that hull afaik. That how I interpreted it. The Ghost of Bravo
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 775	Posted - 2014.04.27 16:48:00 - [16] - Quote We'll use Caldari ships and suits as an example. In EVE... You need the Spaceship Command skill to higher levels to unlock larger ships. Spaceship Command gives bonuses to ship agility. Caldari Frigate 1 will unlock all 6 of the Caldari frigates. The Caldari Frigate skill has no bonuses associated with it, but each of the 6 Caldari frigates have unique bonuses associate with them per level of Caldari Frigate. So you only need level 1 to fly all of them, but higher levels grant better bonuses. These are Tech 1 ships. Tech 2 ships, such as CovOps, require [Race] Frigate to 5 (in this case Caldari) and the CovOps skill to 1. The CovOps is a general skill, where the frigate was a racially specific skill. If I have CovOps 1 and Caldari Frigate 5, I can fly Caldari CovOps and Stealth Bombers. If I later get Amarr Frigate to 5, I'll be able to fly Amarr CovOps and Stealth Bombers with the same CovOps skill from earlier. Tech 2 ship command skills also have prereqs outside of their skill tree. For example, CovOps requires Electronics Upgrades 5. In DUST... You need the Dropsuit Command skill to higher levels to unlock different suits. At this point, CCP decided to throw EVE's excellent system out the window. Not only is there no bonus to Dropsuit Command (used to be a bonus to scan profile, iirc), there is no reason to ever train it past 3. Level 1 unlocks racial medium suits, 2 unlocks racial light suits, and 3 unlocks racial heavy suits. There's no size hierarchy like EVE. Caldari Medium Dropsuit will unlock 1 suit, and likewise with light and heavy suits. A useless Basic Frame with no bonuses associated with the skill or the suit. Some people like to consider basic frames as some kind of analogue to EVE's Tech 1 ships. They're not. Role bonused suits are likewise compared to EVE's Tech 2 ships. They're not. By training Caldari Medium Dropsuit to 3, you unlock access to Caldari Assault and Caldari Logistics with no benefit along the way as you would have in EVE. Further, the role bonused skills require no cross skill tree training, like in EVE. Also, the role bonused skills in DUST are racially specific, unlike in EVE. Basic Frames are useless and are not T1 analogues. Role bonused frames are not T2 analogues. CCP further complicated matters by adding tiers. The awful system that we have in DUST would translate into EVE something like this. Skill Caldari Frigate 1 to get access to a STD non role bonused Condor, 3 for an ADV non role bonused Condor, and 5 for a PRO non role bonused Condor. When you got to CalFrig 3 you could unlock Caldari Interceptor and and Caldari Assault. Get level 1 for a STD role bonused Condor (that's sometimes identical to the non role bonused Condor, but with a role bonus....) Then level 3 for ADV, and level 5 for PRO. There is no T1 or T2. Also these would be the only ships in that class that the Caldari had. CCP has an amazing game in EVE. With DUST, they decided to throw out everything that made EVE successful. The skill tree is just one example. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.


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