DUST Search - Hit Registration Logic

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

The mechanics behind hit detection and registration have been known for quite some time, and to put it bluntly, you're flat wrong.

The problem is nothing to do with a direct randomised "miss chance" built into lighter suits.

The problem is that you're used to client-side hit detection, and DUST handles everything server-side.

Client-side hit detection: The server (or host in player-hosted games) just passes information back and forth between players. If you see an enemy and line up a shot on a target, when you pull the trigger, your copy of the game (a.k.a your client) tells the server/host "I fired in this direction. It hit this person" and the server passes on the damage to your victim. In laggy games, the laggy players will fire shots after they should have already been killed, and the server will apply the damage. Non-laggy players will be able to run through an exposed area, but die a few seconds later to shots that were fired by someone who can still see them because of lag.

Server-side hit detection: Instead of letting the (more easily hacked/modded) client to determine everything, DUST handles most things via its server. When you move, your client tells the server, "I'm at X position, moving in Z direction at Z speed" and the server checks the details based on your suit's capabilities, then reports back to you saying "you end up here" - sometimes you'll get teleported from one place to another if the server doesn't verify a turn you made, or decides your client had you moving too fast or sprinting for longer than your stamina will allow. When it comes to firing, all your client provides is your position, the direction of your shot, and a timestamp. When the line produced by a hitscan weapon meets a target, that target has damage applied by the server. If the server and your client see an enemy in two different positions, it doesn't matter how many bullets you fire or how "perfect" you THINK your aim is. What matters is that THE SERVER doesn't see the target in the same place.

Aim assist throws a spanner in the works a little, because it adjusts your aim to match the server's detected hitbox, rather than your client's rendered character model. As a result, you'll occasionally see your aim focusing a short way ahead of (or behind) a moving target to match what the server is seeing rather than focusing on what your game client is rendering.

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Chuckles Brown 248	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:07:00 - [1] - Quote The actual registration of projectile in this is laughable, and simply the worst of any FPS ever made. That can't be argued. However, with the input of Heavy and Light Frames, I've notice some logic loops. 1. Scouts don't actually have a smaller hit box. It seems their is a random numerator inputted into the projectiles. This is why you can shoot a 300HP, but seem to not land a single round. If you record the gameplays and slow them down, simply a certain percentage of the projectiles don't register. Example: You have an AR You fire 20 direct hits into a light frame. 5 of those 20 rounds will be thrown out. Now, those 5 rounds will be in a random succession and without pattern. It may be the first 5 rounds of your fire, or 2 here, 3 there, or 12 hit, 1 miss, 1 hits, 3 miss, 1 hits, 1 miss, 1 hit... 2. With Heavy frames, simply 100% of every projectile will register, as they have a larger frame. They will actually die faster, as the full mathematical DPS of weapon is being applied to them with respective bonues for each end. I noticed this with my Large Blaster Turret. Heavies actually take less projectiles to kill, and die faster than Medium, than Light Frames. When concrete hits are made, Heavies register 100%. Shooting a Scout in the back, while it not moving will still take more TTK than a Heavy frame, despite the vast HP deficit. Perhaps I'm just wrong. and maybe a blue tag will pop up (even though the devs know I dislike them and I encourage them to stay off my threads) with the answers. This would also explain the myth that a female character has a smaller hitbox, because they simply don't. Graphics and skins aren't applicable to cubic registers underneath. The official alt of 8213: Other alts are unofficially unofficial Do you pub, brah? Latest 8213 Ban Lifted: 07.02.2014
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4993	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:45:00 - [2] - Quote The mechanics behind hit detection and registration have been known for quite some time, and to put it bluntly, you're flat wrong. The problem is nothing to do with a direct randomised "miss chance" built into lighter suits. The problem is that you're used to client-side hit detection, and DUST handles everything server-side. Client-side hit detection: The server (or host in player-hosted games) just passes information back and forth between players. If you see an enemy and line up a shot on a target, when you pull the trigger, your copy of the game (a.k.a your client) tells the server/host "I fired in this direction. It hit this person" and the server passes on the damage to your victim. In laggy games, the laggy players will fire shots after they should have already been killed, and the server will apply the damage. Non-laggy players will be able to run through an exposed area, but die a few seconds later to shots that were fired by someone who can still see them because of lag. Server-side hit detection: Instead of letting the (more easily hacked/modded) client to determine everything, DUST handles most things via its server. When you move, your client tells the server, "I'm at X position, moving in Z direction at Z speed" and the server checks the details based on your suit's capabilities, then reports back to you saying "you end up here" - sometimes you'll get teleported from one place to another if the server doesn't verify a turn you made, or decides your client had you moving too fast or sprinting for longer than your stamina will allow. When it comes to firing, all your client provides is your position, the direction of your shot, and a timestamp. When the line produced by a hitscan weapon meets a target, that target has damage applied by the server. If the server and your client see an enemy in two different positions, it doesn't matter how many bullets you fire or how "perfect" you THINK your aim is. What matters is that THE SERVER doesn't see the target in the same place. Aim assist throws a spanner in the works a little, because it adjusts your aim to match the server's detected hitbox, rather than your client's rendered character model. As a result, you'll occasionally see your aim focusing a short way ahead of (or behind) a moving target to match what the server is seeing rather than focusing on what your game client is rendering.
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 2196	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:53:00 - [3] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: The mechanics behind hit detection and registration have been known for quite some time, and to put it bluntly, you're flat wrong. The problem is nothing to do with a direct randomised "miss chance" built into lighter suits. The problem is that you're used to client-side hit detection, and DUST handles everything server-side. Client-side hit detection: The server (or host in player-hosted games) just passes information back and forth between players. If you see an enemy and line up a shot on a target, when you pull the trigger, your copy of the game (a.k.a your client) tells the server/host "I fired in this direction. It hit this person" and the server passes on the damage to your victim. In laggy games, the laggy players will fire shots after they should have already been killed, and the server will apply the damage. Non-laggy players will be able to run through an exposed area, but die a few seconds later to shots that were fired by someone who can still see them because of lag. Server-side hit detection: Instead of letting the (more easily hacked/modded) client to determine everything, DUST handles most things via its server. When you move, your client tells the server, "I'm at X position, moving in Z direction at Z speed" and the server checks the details based on your suit's capabilities, then reports back to you saying "you end up here" - sometimes you'll get teleported from one place to another if the server doesn't verify a turn you made, or decides your client had you moving too fast or sprinting for longer than your stamina will allow. When it comes to firing, all your client provides is your position, the direction of your shot, and a timestamp. When the line produced by a hitscan weapon meets a target, that target has damage applied by the server. If the server and your client see an enemy in two different positions, it doesn't matter how many bullets you fire or how "perfect" you THINK your aim is. What matters is that THE SERVER doesn't see the target in the same place. Aim assist throws a spanner in the works a little, because it adjusts your aim to match the server's detected hitbox, rather than your client's rendered character model. As a result, you'll occasionally see your aim focusing a short way ahead of (or behind) a moving target to match what the server is seeing rather than focusing on what your game client is rendering. This. /thread
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2415	Posted - 2014.04.07 11:12:00 - [4] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: The mechanics behind hit detection and registration have been known for quite some time, and to put it bluntly, you're flat wrong. The problem is nothing to do with a direct randomised "miss chance" built into lighter suits. The problem is that you're used to client-side hit detection, and DUST handles everything server-side. Client-side hit detection: The server (or host in player-hosted games) just passes information back and forth between players. If you see an enemy and line up a shot on a target, when you pull the trigger, your copy of the game (a.k.a your client) tells the server/host "I fired in this direction. It hit this person" and the server passes on the damage to your victim. In laggy games, the laggy players will fire shots after they should have already been killed, and the server will apply the damage. Non-laggy players will be able to run through an exposed area, but die a few seconds later to shots that were fired by someone who can still see them because of lag. Server-side hit detection: Instead of letting the (more easily hacked/modded) client to determine everything, DUST handles most things via its server. When you move, your client tells the server, "I'm at X position, moving in Z direction at Z speed" and the server checks the details based on your suit's capabilities, then reports back to you saying "you end up here" - sometimes you'll get teleported from one place to another if the server doesn't verify a turn you made, or decides your client had you moving too fast or sprinting for longer than your stamina will allow. When it comes to firing, all your client provides is your position, the direction of your shot, and a timestamp. When the line produced by a hitscan weapon meets a target, that target has damage applied by the server. If the server and your client see an enemy in two different positions, it doesn't matter how many bullets you fire or how "perfect" you THINK your aim is. What matters is that THE SERVER doesn't see the target in the same place. Aim assist throws a spanner in the works a little, because it adjusts your aim to match the server's detected hitbox, rather than your client's rendered character model. As a result, you'll occasionally see your aim focusing a short way ahead of (or behind) a moving target to match what the server is seeing rather than focusing on what your game client is rendering. Boom Taken to the Cleaners! Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
Chuckles Brown 248	Posted - 2014.04.07 11:27:00 - [5] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: The mechanics behind hit detection and registration have been known for quite some time, and to put it bluntly, you're flat wrong. The problem is nothing to do with a direct randomised "miss chance" built into lighter suits. The problem is that you're used to client-side hit detection, and DUST handles everything server-side. Client-side hit dedection: The server (or host in player-hosted games) just passes information back and forth between players. If you see an enemy and line up a shot on a target, when you pull the trigger, your copy of the game (a.k.a your client) tells the server/host "I fired in this direction. It hit this person" and the server passes on the damage to your victim. In laggy games, the laggy players will fire shots after they should have already been killed, and the server will apply the damage. Non-laggy players will be able to run through an exposed area, but die a few seconds later to shots that were fired by someone who can still see them because of lag. Server-side hit detection: Instead of letting the (more easily hacked/modded) client to determine everything, DUST handles most things via its server. When you move, your client tells the server, "I'm at X position, moving in Z direction at Z speed" and the server checks the details based on your suit's capabilities, then reports back to you saying "you end up here" - sometimes you'll get teleported from one place to another if the server doesn't verify a turn you made, or decides your client had you moving too fast or sprinting for longer than your stamina will allow. When it comes to firing, all your client provides is your position, the direction of your shot, and a timestamp. When the line produced by a hitscan weapon meets a target, that target has damage applied by the server. If the server and your client see an enemy in two different positions, it doesn't matter how many bullets you fire or how "perfect" you THINK your aim is. What matters is that THE SERVER doesn't see the target in the same place. Aim assist throws a spanner in the works a little, because it adjusts your aim to match the server's detected hitbox, rather than your client's rendered character model. As a result, you'll occasionally see your aim focusing a short way ahead of (or behind) a moving target to match what the server is seeing rather than focusing on what your game client is rendering. 1. I'm well aware how each type of connection works, so thanks for stating the obvious. EXCEPT, that you're actually 100% wrong. P2P works the exact same as as P2S. just a different route in Port-80... as a former professional gamer I'm kind of expected to know how these things work. Sorry. But E for Effort. 2. I'm not talking about hit detection, so if you're trying to sound intelligent, try re-reading what i posted then reply with a proper response. I'm talking about hit registration, not hit detection. This random registration has been in the game since day one. Hence why the Duvolle had "better" hit detection than a GEK-38 when used in the exact same circumstances. Hence why ion pistols miss when they are buried into the chest of an opponent. (Moody just posted a video of that 2-days ago). You may want to go back and skim where I mentioned the part of stagnant targeting... Glad you wasted your time typing all that, and I hope you feel clever, but sadly you missed the point, because like everyone on these forums, you substitute what you think, because critically thinking escapes you. Luckily you can just always edit your post to join the conversation. The official alt of 8213: Other alts are unofficially unofficial Do you pub, brah? Latest 8213 Ban Lifted: 07.02.2014
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5000	Posted - 2014.04.07 12:11:00 - [6] - Quote Chuckles Brown wrote: 1. I'm well aware how each type of connection works, so thanks for stating the obvious. EXCEPT, that you're actually 100% wrong. P2P works the exact same as as P2S. just a different route in Port-80... as a former professional gamer I'm kind of expected to know how these things work. Sorry. But E for Effort. More than 2 years working for an ISP and now in the process of starting my own business in the industry. I think I know what I'm talking about. If you're going to try and sound like you know what you're talking about, you should avoid claiming that any online games with realtime gameplay are "P2P", because that's peer-to-peer, and peer-to-peer networking is impractical for realtime data synchronisation. As a result, it's almost never been used for online gaming, and literally never in a modern shooter. The term you SHOULD be using if you ACTUALLY know what you're talking about is "player-hosted". Going back on-topic though... First off, I'm not entirely sure what you THINK I said, but when I explained the difference between server-side and client-side hit detection, I wasn't addressing the difference between player-hosted matches and games on dedicated servers. Client-side hit detection, whether it's routed through a server or a host player, is handled by the client and sent to either a server or host. I never bothered going into how the data is routed because that's not relevant to the mechanics involved. Secondly, the only point where I addressed a difference between player-hosting and servers is when I pointed out exactly the same thing you did - a difference in routing - except that I didn't bother trying to bog the conversation down with jargon that isn't relevant to the discussion. Please explain how you managed not to understand my more simple and direct explanation so badly that you thought throwing fancy technical terms my way would make a difference? Quote: 2. I'm not talking about hit detection, so if you're trying to sound intelligent, try re-reading what i posted then reply with a proper response. I'm talking about hit registration, not hit detection. Define what you think "hit registration" means as opposed to "hit detection". The two terms are effectively interchangeable for the purposes of how DUST works. Hit detection is the process by which hits are determined. Hit registration is the application of the results from that process. Quote: This random registration has been in the game since day one. Hence why the Duvolle had "better" hit detection than a GEK-38 when used in the exact same circumstances. Hence why ion pistols miss when they are buried into the chest of an opponent. (Moody just posted a video of that 2-days ago). You may want to go back and skim where I mentioned the part of stagnant targeting... There have been builds where people would argue the exact opposite about the Duvolle and GEK. Regardless of that separate and irrelevant argument, the "problem" is what it's always been. Shot deviation is randomised based on the weapons accuracy, kick and dispersion values. When the hitscan ray is traced, it will be more likely to catch the edge of a Heavy suit's larger hitbox than it is to intersect the smaller hitbox on a Light suit. This means the randomised dispersion pattern of the weapon provides a better chance for a Light suit to avoid damage. When you factor in the Light suit's higher speed, which translates into greater potential deviation between the server-side hitbox location and the model rendered on a player's screen, that further reduces the chance that your "hit" will actually hit a smaller target. When you see a hit and the blue shield flash or the impact on a target's armour, that doesn't always represent damage being done. In spite of the server handling everything, and damage being effectively applied retroactively based on its rulings, CCP made the game client show realtime impacts based on what you're seeing. You will see your apparent hits, whether legitimised by the server or not, as hitting your target and dealing no damage. Only after the relevant data has been through the server and come back to you will you see whatever damage you may have dealt. Quote: Glad you wasted your time typing all that, and I hope you feel clever, but sadly you missed the point, because like everyone on these forums, you substitute what you think, because critically thinking escapes you. Luckily you can just always edit your post to join the conversation. I won't say you wasted your time before this last paragraph, since it gave us a chance to go into more depth on the parts of my post where you misunderstood what I was saying. I will mention that you're heading into ad hominem territory though, and suggest not doing so. I've probably seen worse than you're going to come up with, and if you try and push my limits, you'll get yourself banned from the forums before coming close. Obviously, you're free to do what you like, but getting yourself banned over a simple misunderstanding on a gaming forum seems kind of petty.
SPESHULz The Southern Legion 103	Posted - 2014.04.07 12:31:00 - [7] - Quote your one piece of evidence is wrong. Heavies take twice as long to kill with blaster tanks if you are hitting target. Blood flows. Death comes. War rages Maths is OP. Those numbers kill you RedLineLove

ChribbaX Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions 1052	Posted - 2014.04.07 12:32:00 - [8] - Quote Chuckles Brown wrote: P2P works the exact same as as P2S. just a different route in Port-80... Different route in the what now? Garrett Blacknova wrote: When you see a hit and the blue shield flash or the impact on a target's armour, that doesn't always represent damage being done. In spite of the server handling everything, and damage being effectively applied retroactively based on its rulings, CCP made the game client show realtime impacts based on what you're seeing. You will see your apparent hits, whether legitimised by the server or not, as hitting your target and dealing no damage. Only after the relevant data has been through the server and come back to you will you see whatever damage you may have dealt. The biggest problem with this though, something I've experienced many times (sniper) is getting a shield flash 5 shots in a row - on a target that is not moving, neither am I - something tells me stuff be screwed... DUSTBoard DUSTSearch DUST Server Status

Gelhad Thremyr Quebec United 201	Posted - 2014.04.07 12:37:00 - [9] - Quote Heavys are easier to kill in latency environment because their slow speed makes it easy to attack where they will be next frame versus where the scout is next frame on the server, there is a normal 10 ms to 15 ms delay in network code because it runs normally 1 per 15 frames in video games So 66 times per seconds. this is an industry standard in video games, it might be lower in dust but most unlikely. There you have the best answer. This forces the player to shoot where the player is moving not where he is standing.trust me i kill 100% of scout with a combat rifle and this shoot just ahead technique.


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