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alten hilt wrote:

Yagihige wrote:

Doesn't the fact that the most advanced shield extender gives 66HP while the most basic armor plate gives more than that skew the conclusions a bit? I'd be interested in knowing the number of items sold in shield/armor modules, not the HP. Also, this completely ignores the shield/armor HP that comes with the suits.

I won't pretend to know if shields vs. armor are perfectly balanced, but I believe the difference in HP and module penalties are designed to encourage specific types of gameplay.

Shields have fast regen, no penalty and therefore have lower total HP
Armor have high total HP, a speed penalty, and therefore have no innate regen.

This idea comes from EVE, where shield tanks have lower overall HP, but are faster and better at skirmish tactics, while Armor is better at brawling (if it can get close enough). It's an interesting balance that mostly works in EVE. However, DUST is intrinsically different so the idea is hard to implement in practice.

Basically, if you shield tank, flank, hit-and-run, use cover, use long range weapons. DONT just stand and try to tank it like an armor brawler. Shield tanking is viable in DUST, you just have to change your FPS tactics.

Cloaking brick tanked scouts with shotguns actually fit the EVE metric well (other than their brick-tanked speed being higher than a medium shield tanker). This problem could be mitigated if frame specific stacking penalties were introduced (light frames designed for speed and ewar have higher stacking and speed penalties than a heavy frame designed with armor in mind)

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G Torq ALTA B2O 605	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:16:00 - [1] - Quote Last time we looked at weapons sold on the market, and how people were buying SMGs in large quantities. Meanwhile, it was just after Uprising 1.8 was released, and the GÇ£Gun-MetaGÇ¥ was changing, so we didnGÇÖt dive too deep. As of now, people have had time to try new things, and looking at the last 10 dayGÇÖs Top-10 of weapon-sales, we get this: Rail Rifle - 524,097 SB-39 Rail Rifle - 353,306 Combat Rifle - 323,982 GEK-38 Assault Rifle - 279,371 RS-90 Combat Rifle - 207,613 Assault Rifle - 171,874 BK-42 Assault Combat Rifle - 163,882 Shotgun - 160,013 Scrambler Rifle - 141,934 CRG-3 Shotgun - 134,171 Of the current Top-10 weapons, 35% are Rail Rifles and 28% are Combat Rifles, while the remaining ca 37% are spread amongst Assault Rifles, Shotguns and Scrambler Rifles. But why does this matter? Why look at Rail Rifles and Combat Rifles separately from the others? Because of Damage-types and eHP (Effective HP); Those two favor Armor-damage, while the Assault Rifle, Shotgun and Scrambler Rifle favor Shield-damage. With that in mind, let us look at just what is sold in terms of raw HP, armor and shields, across Dropsuits and Modules. On a random day before Uprising 1.8, March 22nd, we see: Dropsuit Armor: 131,422,782 HP Dropsuit Shields: 103,253,220 HP Armor Plates: 56,227,080 HP Shield Extenders: 15,138,739 HP A 1.27:1 relation in Dropsuit HP, and a further 3.71:1 relation in additional HP via plates and extenders - in total, 1.58:1 between Armor and Shield HP on the field that day. Looking back over the last 40 days, the relation hovers generally around 1.57-1.64 in the time up until March 25th. If we look at a more recent date, we get some slightly different numbers: Dropsuit Armor: 161,527,909 HP Dropsuit Shields: 140,424,221 HP Armor Plates: 52,398,795 HP Shield Extenders: 18,265,511 HP It may not be directly obvious, but the relation between Armor HP and Shields HP dropped to 1.34:1, and actually stayed there for a whileGÇª.but it has been slowly creeping back up, as people have been favoring armor-based suits again, and stacking plates. This takes us back to the weapons, and their damage-types. When looking solely at HP-vs-damagetypes (eHP), we see that the best options are with Rail-types and Explosives, at least as long as people are strongly favouring Armor, with Projectile-weapons being a decent runner up. This, naturally, ignores the actual damage-output of the weapons, along with a host of other parameters. But, if people use Rail Rifles, to counter the stacking of Armor, doesnGÇÖt that mean you should stack Shields? Remember, each 100 HP of Armor gives you 83 eHP against Rails, while 100 HP of Shields give you 125 eHP. Finally, looking at ISK expenditure, DUST514-« players currently spend about 1.2x as much ISK on Armor Plates, as they do on Shield Extenders, and looking to the above, I think the Merchants and Industrialists of New Eden can consider charging a higher price for their Armor-based goods. Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE
da GAND L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 698	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:43:00 - [2] - Quote How did you actually find all this out? Don't nerf heavies, instead do This
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8115	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:50:00 - [3] - Quote CR and RR against shields > AR against anything. The AR is bad (compared to the other rifles), mm'kay. SCR takes skill to operate, so I'm not surprised it's not that high on the list even if it's devastating. My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2405	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:51:00 - [4] - Quote People assume 1 point of armor HP = 1 point of shield HP. In reality shield can tank more damage per point of HP than armor. But people just like to chase high numbers. For the Federation!
Yagihige Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 743	Posted - 2014.04.06 17:54:00 - [5] - Quote Doesn't the fact that the most advanced shield extender gives 66HP while the most basic armor plate gives more than that skew the conclusions a bit? I'd be interested in knowing the number of items sold in shield/armor modules, not the HP. Also, this completely ignores the shield/armor HP that comes with the suits. em ta kool t'nod
alten hilt DUST University Ivy League 167	Posted - 2014.04.06 18:11:00 - [6] - Quote Yagihige wrote: Doesn't the fact that the most advanced shield extender gives 66HP while the most basic armor plate gives more than that skew the conclusions a bit? I'd be interested in knowing the number of items sold in shield/armor modules, not the HP. Also, this completely ignores the shield/armor HP that comes with the suits. I won't pretend to know if shields vs. armor are perfectly balanced, but I believe the difference in HP and module penalties are designed to encourage specific types of gameplay. Shields have fast regen, no penalty and therefore have lower total HP Armor have high total HP, a speed penalty, and therefore have no innate regen. This idea comes from EVE, where shield tanks have lower overall HP, but are faster and better at skirmish tactics, while Armor is better at brawling (if it can get close enough). It's an interesting balance that mostly works in EVE. However, DUST is intrinsically different so the idea is hard to implement in practice. Basically, if you shield tank, flank, hit-and-run, use cover, use long range weapons. DONT just stand and try to tank it like an armor brawler. Shield tanking is viable in DUST, you just have to change your FPS tactics. Cloaking brick tanked scouts with shotguns actually fit the EVE metric well (other than their brick-tanked speed being higher than a medium shield tanker). This problem could be mitigated if frame specific stacking penalties were introduced (light frames designed for speed and ewar have higher stacking and speed penalties than a heavy frame designed with armor in mind)
da GAND L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 702	Posted - 2014.04.06 18:55:00 - [7] - Quote alten hilt wrote: Yagihige wrote: Doesn't the fact that the most advanced shield extender gives 66HP while the most basic armor plate gives more than that skew the conclusions a bit? I'd be interested in knowing the number of items sold in shield/armor modules, not the HP. Also, this completely ignores the shield/armor HP that comes with the suits. I won't pretend to know if shields vs. armor are perfectly balanced, but I believe the difference in HP and module penalties are designed to encourage specific types of gameplay. Shields have fast regen, no penalty and therefore have lower total HP Armor have high total HP, a speed penalty, and therefore have no innate regen. This idea comes from EVE, where shield tanks have lower overall HP, but are faster and better at skirmish tactics, while Armor is better at brawling (if it can get close enough). It's an interesting balance that mostly works in EVE. However, DUST is intrinsically different so the idea is hard to implement in practice. Basically, if you shield tank, flank, hit-and-run, use cover, use long range weapons. DONT just stand and try to tank it like an armor brawler. Shield tanking is viable in DUST, you just have to change your FPS tactics. Cloaking brick tanked scouts with shotguns actually fit the EVE metric well (other than their brick-tanked speed being higher than a medium shield tanker). This problem could be mitigated if frame specific stacking penalties were introduced (light frames designed for speed and ewar have higher stacking and speed penalties than a heavy frame designed with armor in mind) +1 bump Don't nerf heavies, instead do This
Kitt 514 True North. 149	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:03:00 - [8] - Quote da GAND wrote: How did you actually find all this out? Its an interesting analysis. +1 But how did you find your data? Analysis of data is useless unless you can provide the data itself.
C Saunders Tech Guard RISE of LEGION 785	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:16:00 - [9] - Quote Mass drivers are not on there!? No wonder the communities complaining about scouts. // Fully Specced Mass Driver Expert // Proto Min Scout // Closed Beta Vet // Tech Guard Director //

ChribbaX Otherworld Enterprises Dust Control Otherworld Empire Productions 1049	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:25:00 - [10] - Quote Kitt 514 wrote: da GAND wrote: How did you actually find all this out? Its an interesting analysis. +1 But how did you find your data? Analysis of data is useless unless you can provide the data itself. The EVE Market API now carries history, and as such you can query for DUST items as well as EVE items. /c DUSTBoard DUSTSearch DUST Server Status


iliel Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 24	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:26:00 - [11] - Quote I'm pretty sure your statistics do not entail that more people are using RRs and CRs than HMGs, Shotguns, or ScRs. Rather, it entails that people using RRs and CRs are having to restock them the most (i.e., dying the most). The same goes for the plates. Hence all those Gal-sent-with-light-weapon users, who stack 2k hp are losing 4 complex armor plates each time they die and one RR or CR, which they clearly don't know how to use, each time they get 4/5 shotgun shells in the back. Anyway, would be cool if you could provide a list of most used weapons, according to their being favorites after matches, and perhaps even some sort of moving average of DMG output and DMG received in relation to these weapons.
Kitt 514 True North. 149	Posted - 2014.04.06 19:34:00 - [12] - Quote ChribbaX wrote: Kitt 514 wrote: da GAND wrote: How did you actually find all this out? Its an interesting analysis. +1 But how did you find your data? Analysis of data is useless unless you can provide the data itself. The EVE Market API now carries history, and as such you can query for DUST items as well as EVE items. Excellent work G, keep it up! /c Awesome, thanks!
G Torq ALTA B2O 615	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:22:00 - [13] - Quote ChribbaX wrote: Kitt 514 wrote: da GAND wrote: How did you actually find all this out? Its an interesting analysis. +1 But how did you find your data? Analysis of data is useless unless you can provide the data itself. The EVE Market API now carries history, and as such you can query for DUST items as well as EVE items. Excellent work G, keep it up! /c Yeah, as Chribba said, this is based on the EVE-API for Market Data - see the announcement over in the Tech Lab section of this Forum, as well as the links in the bottom of the Orginal Post on this thread for more information. I'm collecting the Market Data ca daily (I might skip a day, but then catch up the next), but I cannot give direct access to my database, for obvious reasons. Instead, here is a public link to the spreadsheet I used for this review: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JNaH-pquiMuXEx_OCKZ1eezOiyIpX4zDsxX4Iunb0U0/pubhtml# (It is not formatted optimally, since it was made for my reading, not sharing ) Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE
G Torq ALTA B2O 615	Posted - 2014.04.06 20:23:00 - [14] - Quote iliel wrote: I'm pretty sure your statistics do not entail that more people are using RRs and CRs than HMGs, Shotguns, or ScRs. Rather, it entails that people using RRs and CRs are having to restock them the most (i.e., dying the most). The same goes for the plates. Hence all those Gal-sent-with-light-weapon users, who stack 2k hp are losing 4 complex armor plates each time they die and one RR or CR, which they clearly don't know how to use, each time they get 4/5 shotgun shells in the back. Anyway, would be cool if you could provide a list of most used weapons, according to their being favorites after matches, and perhaps even some sort of moving average of DMG output and DMG received in relation to these weapons. See my ongoing request for an Aggregated Kill-Feed in the Tech Lab section, and feel free to send CCP Games a reminder to get that done Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE
G Torq ALTA B2O 618	Posted - 2014.04.07 08:09:00 - [15] - Quote Yagihige wrote: Doesn't the fact that the most advanced shield extender gives 66HP while the most basic armor plate gives more than that skew the conclusions a bit? I'd be interested in knowing the number of items sold in shield/armor modules, not the HP. Also, this completely ignores the shield/armor HP that comes with the suits. Yes, it is an attempt at a bit of humor - there is more to it than just HP, and yes, you get more HP armor-tanking than shield-tanking, and yes (as alten hilt points out) armor and shield represent different play-styles. But, if you only look at HP, and you armor-tank, then ... As for it ignoring/leaving out Armor/Shield HP from dropsuits, then I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. The raw HP bought on the market from just extenders and plates have an almost 4:1 armor-shield relation, but dropsuits out-scores modules, dropping that notably: Dropsuit Armor: 161,527,909 HP Dropsuit Shields: 140,424,221 HP Armor Plates: 52,398,795 HP Shield Extenders: 18,265,511 HP Yes, 300k HP from dropsuits, 70k HP from modules. I'm using all 4 numbers in my review. Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 699	Posted - 2014.04.07 08:23:00 - [16] - Quote Mr. Market Data Guru, I have a request, is there anyway we can start getting figures for the individual dropsuits sold by race and type? I mean Race is of my main interest, but race and type would be nice to see as well. Fixing swarms
Sourdough Muffins Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 24	Posted - 2014.04.07 08:26:00 - [17] - Quote Maths make my head hurt. Can we just agree to blow **** up?
Vaux Karn The Mercenary Collective 63	Posted - 2014.04.07 08:26:00 - [18] - Quote This could also explain all the "RR OP" threads if, theoretically based on market statistics, 80% of the community is armor tanking, which rail tech is designed to tear apart. That said...someone said Gallente ARs are useless...they still rip Caldari of any kind to shreds...they and lasers are the bane of my existence.
bigolenuts Dirt Nap Squad. 540	Posted - 2014.04.07 08:27:00 - [19] - Quote Nice info good merc. I never knew. "I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves."-1958, Ernesto "Che" Guevara
Syeven Reed RETR0 PR0 GAMERS 506	Posted - 2014.04.07 08:27:00 - [20] - Quote Your very good at this. :) Gÿé Syeven 514 Application for CPM1

iliel Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 27	Posted - 2014.04.07 08:40:00 - [21] - Quote G Torq wrote: iliel wrote: I'm pretty sure your statistics do not entail that more people are using RRs and CRs than HMGs, Shotguns, or ScRs. Rather, it entails that people using RRs and CRs are having to restock them the most (i.e., dying the most). The same goes for the plates. Hence all those Gal-sent-with-light-weapon users, who stack 2k hp are losing 4 complex armor plates each time they die and one RR or CR, which they clearly don't know how to use, each time they get 4/5 shotgun shells in the back. Anyway, would be cool if you could provide a list of most used weapons, according to their being favorites after matches, and perhaps even some sort of moving average of DMG output and DMG received in relation to these weapons. See my ongoing request for an Aggregated Kill-Feed in the Tech Lab section, and feel free to send CCP Games a reminder to get that done Anyways, you're quite correct that Sales do not equate to Usage or Effectiveness, which is why I'm being very careful to include "Market Data" in the titles of these posts :) As for incompetent Sentinels-with-light-weapons, I'm so far thinking they are largely statistical noise, though I cannot in truth make say that it is so, without some battlefield-statistics. Please tell me how to send them a mail to get it. (Probably not submitting a ticket about this though.) Maybe this thread will gain their attention. Anyway, I think it would be nice to have more publicized statistics - - especially if these statistics somehow affected matchmaking and/or balancing concerns.
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 303	Posted - 2014.04.07 10:17:00 - [22] - Quote iliel wrote: ... Anyway, I think it would be nice to have more publicized statistics - - especially if these statistics somehow affected matchmaking and/or balancing concerns. Fanfest usually has some really interesting presentations with data not available to the players. We are almost assured to get a look at the market from their teams. We can only hope they decide to take a look at other areas as well. EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
KGB Sleep 1003	Posted - 2014.04.07 11:00:00 - [23] - Quote The flaw I see with these numbers it simple. If people are restocking stuff it doesn't mean it is the best, it means they are dying more. The low number of combat rifle purchases compared to Rail rifle purchases should be adequate to illustrate this point. Because beer, that's why.
G Torq ALTA B2O 675	Posted - 2014.04.14 13:11:00 - [24] - Quote KGB Sleep wrote: The flaw I see with these numbers it simple. If people are restocking stuff it doesn't mean it is the best, it means they are dying more. The low number of combat rifle purchases compared to Rail rifle purchases should be adequate to illustrate this point. I'm fairly attentive when it comes to NOT saying that these numbers show what is best - and I don't think anyone claimed they do :) What they show, is what people think are their best option, i.e. what is perceived by the general population to be best. Unfortunately, modelling lemming-effects is a bit tricky, so all I'm going to do is give out the data, and some hits, and let people deal with the rest themselves (incl conclusions) Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE
G Torq ALTA B2O 675	Posted - 2014.04.14 13:40:00 - [25] - Quote iliel wrote: G Torq wrote: iliel wrote: I'm pretty sure your statistics do not entail that more people are using RRs and CRs than HMGs, Shotguns, or ScRs. Rather, it entails that people using RRs and CRs are having to restock them the most (i.e., dying the most). The same goes for the plates. Hence all those Gal-sent-with-light-weapon users, who stack 2k hp are losing 4 complex armor plates each time they die and one RR or CR, which they clearly don't know how to use, each time they get 4/5 shotgun shells in the back. Anyway, would be cool if you could provide a list of most used weapons, according to their being favorites after matches, and perhaps even some sort of moving average of DMG output and DMG received in relation to these weapons. See my ongoing request for an Aggregated Kill-Feed in the Tech Lab section, and feel free to send CCP Games a reminder to get that done Anyways, you're quite correct that Sales do not equate to Usage or Effectiveness, which is why I'm being very careful to include "Market Data" in the titles of these posts :) As for incompetent Sentinels-with-light-weapons, I'm so far thinking they are largely statistical noise, though I cannot in truth make say that it is so, without some battlefield-statistics. Please tell me how to send them a mail to get it. (Probably not submitting a ticket about this though.) Maybe this thread will gain their attention. Anyway, I think it would be nice to have more publicized statistics - - especially if these statistics somehow affected matchmaking and/or balancing concerns. Well, if not submitting a ticket, do everything you can to make noise about e.g. this post: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1732806#post1732806 Twitter/Facebook/Reddit/Google+/MySpace ... anything you can think of, that would get CCP's attention. Heck, feel free to create new threads in General Discussions on this forum, to drive traffic and get some likes for it :) Team Fairy DUST HTTP://Dust.Thang.DK/ - DUST514 Fitting Tool based on DUST SDE


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