DUST Search - 0.2 m/sec = slower than a turtle!

BL4CKST4R wrote:

TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:

BL4CKST4R wrote:

What about minnie scout with nova knives armor tanked and side armdamage modifiers?

Going from a Gallente logi to minnie scout there is a huge speed difference specially running both completely decked in armor.

What about them? Did you know there is a large difference between amarr heavies and minmitar assault speeds? Why are you cross comparing different classes of suits? None of the suits are balanced the same across the board. Minnie Scouts and Minnie logis are fine in their classes, but they aren't kitted out like the heavies and assault classes. We discussed the assault and heavy variants specifically because those are the under performing ones. The only reason I mentioned gallente scouts and minnie assaults was because the gallente scouts currently out perform them in every way. Gallente Logi (Tanky support) and minnie scout (Ninja suit) aren't even comparable as far as what the suit is trying to be, while minnie assault (Tanky speed suit) and gallente scout (tanky speed suit) are comparable.

But you say the speed difference is negligible and it is not. You agree that there should be a speed difference between tiers and this is correct. But speed is an extremely major factor in this game and that alight speed advantage you have as a minmatar is huge when used correctly. You really undervalue how much of a difference it makes in this game, specially when hit detection sucks and you can strafe faster than a person can move his thumb.

Also do you really think a Minmatar assault should be as fast as a Gallente scout? If that is the case then sacrifice your tank for equal speed to the Gal scout. You can't have your cake and eat it to.


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TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 122	Posted - 2014.04.01 00:21:00 - [1] - Quote bamboo x wrote: The Terminator T-1000 wrote: CCP seems to think that 0.2 m/sec faster speed gives someone an advantage. For example minmatar commando gets 0.2 m/sec faster speed than the caldary or gallante. Or the minmatar assault is 0.3 m/sec faster the caldary or gallante assaults. Did you know that a turtle moves faster than 0.2 m/ sec, seriously. Look it up! That is the "speed" advantage that the minmatar gets! Just putting it in perspective ... Wait how bad is the HP disadvantage though? The minnie assault std has around 250 shields and 250 armor kitted with 3 basic shield extenders, 1 basic plate, and 1 basic rep and that's with 5 in armor and shield skill with I think about 5.13 speed. The Caldari kitted out with a weapon mod and 2 extenders has about 305 shields with 260 armor and 4.83 speed. Gallente I'm not sure but I know I can kit out a militia one with 190 shields and 390 armor at 4.7ish speed. The big thing with the minnie assault is that it has only 2 low and 5 high at proto level which is all balanced pre shield nerfs/armor buffs. As is, the proto suit I think usually runs something like 430 shields and 280 armor if fitted with a repper and stacked complex/enhanced shield extenders = abysmal recharge delay on it's pitiful 15 a tic/20 a tic? Can't remember all I remember is whatever Caldari has, it's lower than that. On heavies the amarr militia I can kit out gets like 600 shields and 510 armor with reps, gallente gets 510 shields with 555 armor with reps, the caldari gets like 620 shields with 480 armor with reps and the minnie gets 480 shields with 480 armor with reps. Not sure on the speeds but I think the minnie is like .2 to .4 faster then the other heavies which is still slower then a brick tanked assault with less shields/armor. On the commandos, they're all pretty underwhelming anyways when compared to the ehp on medium suits. But this is why I specced out of minnie and into Caldari, because that slight speed buff isn't as good as the higher ehp totals combined with the near double recharge rate and delay rate. Edit: Also on a side note, most the people I used to see run minnie proto I have noticed are running gallente scouts now. Which are faster, lower profile, high armor rep and have more ehp when kitted out.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 122	Posted - 2014.04.01 00:28:00 - [2] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: The Terminator T-1000 wrote: CCP seems to think that 0.2 m/sec faster speed gives someone an advantage. For example minmatar commando gets 0.2 m/sec faster speed than the caldary or gallante. Or the minmatar assault is 0.3 m/sec faster the caldary or gallante assaults. Did you know that a turtle moves faster than 0.2 m/ sec, seriously. Look it up! That is the "speed" advantage that the minmatar gets! Just putting it in perspective ... It might be miniscule for you but this is the reason I do not run complex armor plates. With 2 enhanced plates My Gallente runs at 4.7 meters this is just like running through a field of pancake syrup. That tiny... miniscule... 0.3 m/s. BUT hey if 0.2m/s isn't good enough for you my Gallente suits would sure love a piece. That's also a difference of like 60 armor hp.... the difference between ehp on minnies and on other suits is much greater than that.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 122	Posted - 2014.04.01 00:32:00 - [3] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: The Terminator T-1000 wrote: CCP seems to think that 0.2 m/sec faster speed gives someone an advantage. For example minmatar commando gets 0.2 m/sec faster speed than the caldary or gallante. Or the minmatar assault is 0.3 m/sec faster the caldary or gallante assaults. Did you know that a turtle moves faster than 0.2 m/ sec, seriously. Look it up! That is the "speed" advantage that the minmatar gets! Just putting it in perspective ... It might be miniscule for you but this is the reason I do not run complex armor plates. With 2 enhanced plates My Gallente runs at 4.7 meters this is just like running through a field of pancake syrup. That tiny... miniscule... 0.3 m/s. BUT hey if 0.2m/s isn't good enough for you my Gallente suits would sure love a piece. That's also a difference of like 60 armor hp.... the difference between ehp on minnies and on other suits is much greater than that. The point is you undervalue the speed difference specially in a game so dependant on speed yet punishes armor so much. The HP difference is pretty insignificant if you can learn to appreciate how much of an advantage your speed has. Specially when you can equip better armor than a Gallente while greatly minimizing speed losses. You go run minnie assault for 5 months then we will talk about its speed benefits. There is a large difference between .3 m/s at the cost of 60 hp and .3 m/s at the cost of 100-200 ehp.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 123	Posted - 2014.04.01 00:53:00 - [4] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: What about minnie scout with nova knives armor tanked and side armdamage modifiers? Going from a Gallente logi to minnie scout there is a huge speed difference specially running both completely decked in armor. What about them? Did you know there is a large difference between amarr heavies and minmitar assault speeds? Why are you cross comparing different classes of suits? None of the suits are balanced the same across the board. Minnie Scouts and Minnie logis are fine in their classes, but they aren't kitted out like the heavies and assault classes. We discussed the assault and heavy variants specifically because those are the under performing ones. The only reason I mentioned gallente scouts and minnie assaults was because the gallente scouts currently out perform them in every way. Gallente Logi (Tanky support) and minnie scout (Ninja suit) aren't even comparable as far as what the suit is trying to be, while minnie assault (Tanky speed suit) and gallente scout (tanky speed suit) are comparable.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 123	Posted - 2014.04.01 01:22:00 - [5] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: What about minnie scout with nova knives armor tanked and side armdamage modifiers? Going from a Gallente logi to minnie scout there is a huge speed difference specially running both completely decked in armor. What about them? Did you know there is a large difference between amarr heavies and minmitar assault speeds? Why are you cross comparing different classes of suits? None of the suits are balanced the same across the board. Minnie Scouts and Minnie logis are fine in their classes, but they aren't kitted out like the heavies and assault classes. We discussed the assault and heavy variants specifically because those are the under performing ones. The only reason I mentioned gallente scouts and minnie assaults was because the gallente scouts currently out perform them in every way. Gallente Logi (Tanky support) and minnie scout (Ninja suit) aren't even comparable as far as what the suit is trying to be, while minnie assault (Tanky speed suit) and gallente scout (tanky speed suit) are comparable. But you say the speed difference is negligible and it is not. You agree that there should be a speed difference between tiers and this is correct. But speed is an extremely major factor in this game and that alight speed advantage you have as a minmatar is huge when used correctly. You really undervalue how much of a difference it makes in this game, specially when hit detection sucks and you can strafe faster than a person can move his thumb. Also do you really think a Minmatar assault should be as fast as a Gallente scout? If that is the case then sacrifice your tank for equal speed to the Gal scout. You can't have your cake and eat it to. No I don't think you understand. That .3 m/s difference on for example a Gallente proto assault vs. a minnie proto assault is a difference of around 400 ehp. That's almost double the total ehp. It's not an issue of is speed useful, it's an issue of how much speed is useful. In the case of minnie heavies and minnie assaults their speed boost has them underperforming well below other racial suits of the same class. And especially currently in the case of minnie assaults and gallente scouts, the gallente scouts are much faster, have lower scan profile, and have more e/hp and get one more equipment slot. gallente scouts are better in every stat, including speed.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 124	Posted - 2014.04.01 01:32:00 - [6] - Quote Shadow Archeus wrote: Try this....I swear if you want an assault with an hmg Gal sentinel proto Complex shield extender Three complex kin kats One complex armor repair Six kin burst hmg Toxin SMG Grenade of choice if you can fit it The sprint speed is around 7 something Which brings up the other issue with minnie assaults and heavies being the speed suits, kincats are low slots. Not sure on the heavies but even caldari assaults get more low slots then minnie assaults.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 124	Posted - 2014.04.01 01:55:00 - [7] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote: No I don't think you understand. That .3 m/s difference on for example a Gallente proto assault vs. a minnie proto assault is a difference of around 400 ehp. That's almost double the total ehp. It's not an issue of is speed useful, it's an issue of how much speed is useful. In the case of minnie heavies and minnie assaults their speed boost has them underperforming well below other racial suits of the same class. And especially currently in the case of minnie assaults and gallente scouts, the gallente scouts are much faster, have lower scan profile, and have more e/hp and get one more equipment slot. gallente scouts are better in every stat, including speed. Is it really a 400 EHP difference for .3 m/s? Assault GK.0 Dual tanked with enhanced armor plates 4.7 M/s 872.3 EHP http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/2812 Assault MK.0 Dual tanked with enhanced armor plates 4.99 M/s (0.29 M/s difference) 961.25 EHP http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/2902 With an armor repairer for the MK.0 5.14 M/s 840.25 EHP http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/2904 Scout GK.0 (which is apparently better than the MK.0) dual tanked with enhanced armor plates 4.97 m/s 758.2 EHP http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/2903 Well when you misrepresent it like that sure, you are ignoring the armor rep difference between these suits which is a pretty big deal if you don't have someone hugging your ass with a rep tool and intend to survive more than one encounter. The first MK0 has 1 armor rep vs. the 10 armor rep on the gallente. The Scout ignores the 9 armor rep and you also miscounted its 662 on the MK 0 with 1 armor rep making that 6 armor rep. You also are not accounting for the fact that a higher base amount of ehp (which minnies have the lowest amount) = a greater amount of ehp with the +25% shield and armor bonus in the dropsuit upgrades tree furthering the gap between the gallente and the minnie.
TYCHUS MAXWELL The Fun Police 125	Posted - 2014.04.01 03:21:00 - [8] - Quote Okay I'm not sure how to post the fittings from that tool calculator but here is an example of why the Scout gk0 out performs the minnie assault mk0 with real values (Because the ones that were posted before are invalid fittings.) I maxed all skills just to make sure the values were actual values although no one will have maxed out skills this fact would only hurt the minnie as its base stats in ehp are higher although the gk 0 will squeeze out a little more CPU/PG thanks to its higher stats. Neither of these takes maxing all skills anyways, just 4 outside the weapons/suit/mod reqs. So not really any hidden values that I can see. Gk. 0 Scout: 2 Complex Shield Extenders Boundless Combat Rifle 2 Complex Armor Reps Submachine Gun 2 Complex Armor Plates Core Locus Grenade Cloak Field Compact Nanohive CPU: 432/433 Shields: 232.7 Movement: 4.92 Shield Recharge: 30hp/s PG: 92/97 Armor: 459.5 Stamina/Recovery: 210/31.5s Delay/Depleted Delay: 4s/6.87s Hack Speed: 1.31 Total: 692.2 Armor Rep: 15.5/s Scan Profile/Precision: 23.63db/36db ScanRadius/MeleeDMG: 37.5m/80dmg Isk Estimate: 150,360 isk Mk. 0 Assault: 3 Complex Shield Extenders Boundless Combat Rifle 2 Basic Shield Extenders M209 Assault-SMG 1 Complex Armor Plate Core Locus Grenade 1 Complex Armor Rep Compact Nanohive CPU: 417/420 Shields: 453.7 Movement: 5.04 Shield Recharge: 25hp/s PG: 80/84 Armor: 317.25 Stamina/Recovery: 210/52.5.5s Delay/Depleted Delay: 6s/10.4s Hack Speed: 1.31 Total: 770.95 Armor Rep: 6.25/s Scan Profile/Precision: 45db/45db ScanRadius/MeleeDMG: 15m/110dmg Isk Estimate: 152,220 isk In my opinion, if both are supposed to be light assault suits. The Higher shield recharge, faster shield repletion, cloak+harder detection, and more than double Armor Rep will serve far better than the 80 more e/hp and .12 m/s speed boost, and higher stamina recovery. Because you can't outrun bullets anyways, but being able to hide from your enemy is a massive advantage combined with fast recovery and near equal combat skills in other areas. Can't really say how much the Mag dump will help from the assault bonus but I don't see people running minnie assault much so I lean towards not enough. Considering who wins is usually who sees who first when the stats are close together, my money is on the cloaking scout with twice the scan range/precision.