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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1318
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Posted - 2014.03.30 21:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP needs to introduce capacitors to Dust once and for all....
For those not familiar with them, they are basically the powerplant of ships in EVE. All of your modules have a certain drain on your capacitor. Things such as guns, reps, hardners and propulsion modules use up an amount of cap per cycle. Part of your fitting is taking into account how fast the mods will deplete your capacitor before you have to turn them off and recharge.
This eliminates a lot of the issue of balancing cooldown or amount of armor repped per second and instead gives the 'window of opportunity' that CCP talked about with the release of 1.7
Sure, a tank could run 3 hardners or 3 reps all at once but it would probably drain the cap within 20 seconds and then they would have to run back and hide for another 30 while they wait for it to recharge.
Not only does it give a window but it also means that vehicle pilots need to be a little more cunning about what mods they have and when they activate them. It would give infantry a little more of a chance without making AV too powerful but would also make vehicle vs. vehicle more interesting.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1320
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Posted - 2014.03.30 22:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:CCP needs to introduce capacitors to Dust once and for all....
For those not familiar with them, they are basically the powerplant of ships in EVE. All of your modules have a certain drain on your capacitor. Things such as guns, reps, hardners and propulsion modules use up an amount of cap per cycle. Part of your fitting is taking into account how fast the mods will deplete your capacitor before you have to turn them off and recharge.
This eliminates a lot of the issue of balancing cooldown or amount of armor repped per second and instead gives the 'window of opportunity' that CCP talked about with the release of 1.7
Sure, a tank could run 3 hardners or 3 reps all at once but it would probably drain the cap within 20 seconds and then they would have to run back and hide for another 30 while they wait for it to recharge.
Not only does it give a window but it also means that vehicle pilots need to be a little more cunning about what mods they have and when they activate them. It would give infantry a little more of a chance without making AV too powerful but would also make vehicle vs. vehicle more interesting. But what most people don't realise is that a good pilot would take this system and make it an incredible buff to his playstyle. You will still have tankers who will go 30/0 and Infantry will still moan about it.
There is always a tradeoff. I dont want tanks to be nerfed and completely agreed with the thought that they should have windows of effectiveness and then be vulnerable.
There are some fits that can be cap-stable but they arent as effective as those that can only last for a short period. It would also allow for more diversity in fits for vehicles as tradeoffs can be made for what benefit some mods have versus how much cap they drain.
Lets face it, tanks are supposed to be f'ing tanks but they shouldnt be insta-**** machines for an entire match. CCP has tried to find balance between vehicles and AV for a year now and it always skews one way or another. What a capacitor does is makes it so that a tank that doesnt pay attention or gets stuck in the open too long completely vulnerable to AV damage. God forbid he runs his mods too long and then he becomes a sitting duck.
Making vehicles more complex to manage does add some balance to them. Not only does the pilot need to watch the battlefield and aim at targets but has to constantly watch his mod usage to stay alive. I think that deserves some ability to dominate should the pilot be very good at his job.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1320
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Posted - 2014.03.30 22:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
SNIP
Well said....I also do understand cap mechanics having several EVE characters.
Was never trying to make it seem otherwise. People are always going to complain about something, that is the nature of life.
I am not trying to make anything FAIR because that is not how life works. What I am trying to do is give valid opportunities where players can take advantage of them if they are smart. Capacitors work quite well in EVE and could be implemented into Dust if done properly to ensure that there is adequate tradeoff between effectiveness of a module and its drain.
The goal is to not make tanks invincible for a short period of time but make them 'effective'.
A scenario would be that a tank could rep through about 1000 dps running 3 reps at once but it would drain their cap in about 10-15 seconds and then they would have no reserves left.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1320
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Posted - 2014.03.30 23:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
SNIP
In all honesty I have been through the ups and downs of HAV work since Chromosome..... and while I would like to see this..... my levels of performance have dropped initially at the introduction to each change, the only gotten better and better with each passing month.....
I will rarely ever make a 50 kill game. I focus on killing HAV and protecting my allies at points.
But eventually no matter what AV calls for in terms of nerf I will always return back to being able achieve my desired levels of performance.
Didnt see this part so wanted to respond separately.
There are a lot of factors that the developers need to take into account when trying to create a good model for vehicles.
- There needs to be levels of effectiveness between the different levels. A lot of the issues we had with 1.7 were around the fact that militia hulls were way too effective for what they were supposed to be (entry level). There needs to be a reason to go up to the next tier without making it too effective.
- How do you balance vehicles against other vehicles while also balancing against infantry AV.
- Vehicles need to be priced in a way that its a sustainable career path but also maintains the risk/reward nature of New Eden.
- Each vehicle needs to have a strong and weak point just like infantry suits.
Much of the issues that this game faces is that each battle is in a confined area with a fixed compliment of mercs who have little chance to counter what is thrown at them. If you enemy throws Tanks and ADs at you and your team doesnt have their own or proto AV, good luck with that. It actually is more of a disadvantage for new players who have to focus on one suit or one weapon at a time and will likely not have any AV. The best thing that we can hope for with this game is a movement towards dynamic maps with multiple battles on the same terrain map with linked communications.
This would be like how MAG did it where it was able to contain memory usage by only loading up certain grids per battle area and you switch over when you leave one grid for another but maintaining a seamless feel for the player. This would give vehicles such as dropships that arent ADs more of a real usage and allow tanks that are in one grid to reinforce another that might not have the right balance.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1323
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Posted - 2014.03.31 00:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
da GAND wrote:I've seen this mentioned before, I also made a post about this and plenty of people agreed. +1 keep telling CCP this
Of course this could all be moot if there are, indeed, radical changes to the game under Rogue's vision. The one thing is that balance will always be an issue on small maps with limited diversity in environments and objectives. The game really only boils down to two separate tasks in killing enemies and hacking a limited amount of objectives. More complex game modes, maps and sockets would really help to smooth all of this out as well.
It would be great to hear some more from CCP as to visions for the future of the game (note: not roadmaps or timelines but rather forward thinking statements on where they see this game going now that they have a year of launch under their belts). Hopefully we will see some of this at fanfest.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1323
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Posted - 2014.03.31 00:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:CCP thinks console players are too stupid to grasp the concept of Capacitors.
CCP also thought that the game was worth 'releasing' in May of last year.....
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1324
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Posted - 2014.03.31 00:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
The Eristic wrote:Imo, dropsuits need 'em (and active modules), too.
Agreed
I would love to see rigs as well for vehicles and suits.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1346
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Posted - 2014.03.31 13:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:CCP needs to introduce capacitors to Dust once and for all....
For those not familiar with them, they are basically the powerplant of ships in EVE. All of your modules have a certain drain on your capacitor. Things such as guns, reps, hardners and propulsion modules use up an amount of cap per cycle. Part of your fitting is taking into account how fast the mods will deplete your capacitor before you have to turn them off and recharge.
This eliminates a lot of the issue of balancing cooldown or amount of armor repped per second and instead gives the 'window of opportunity' that CCP talked about with the release of 1.7
Sure, a tank could run 3 hardners or 3 reps all at once but it would probably drain the cap within 20 seconds and then they would have to run back and hide for another 30 while they wait for it to recharge.
Not only does it give a window but it also means that vehicle pilots need to be a little more cunning about what mods they have and when they activate them. It would give infantry a little more of a chance without making AV too powerful but would also make vehicle vs. vehicle more interesting. Capacitors are just another layer of complexity that requires balancing; it has taken EVE 10 years to get it in order. At the heart of it capacitance is just more "points" that get expended just like HP from shields or armour. It very quickly becomes obvious to min/maxers how to expend energy for maximum effect. So, for example, if shield boosters are the most high yielding HP per second use of energy then that's what everyone uses, if its armour rappers then that's the FOTM. All you've done is add balance issues without solving anything. You're straight back at the start and we're now arguing if HAVs should have X or Y capacitor levels.
How exactly would this add to balance issues?
As far as I can tell, capacitors would:
- Require more attention from pilots which means that it adds a level of complexity for them while operating a vehicle
- It would actually make balancing easier as developers have a singular pool to draw from instead of worrying about how each cooldown period interplays with other modules
- It forefully creates a 'window' that was discussed earlier while not nerfing tanks into oblivion
- It allows for more creative fits as pilots will have to choose between possible duration of use and efficacy of modules
From my view right now, the only balancing that would need to be done is to make sure that modules are effective enough to make tanks surviveable but not invincible and to make sure that the cap drain is large enough that it gives both a window of effectiveness and vulnerability
A vehicle pilot in this scenario would have to manage his cap to make sure that he can stay in the battle and have enough reserves to gtfo using nitrous given the amount of distance there is to cover. If they mess up then they become sitting ducks. If you see things that would not work in this scenario then Im all ears.
BTW - I am not a tanker but I want to keep it a viable career choice without being overpowered.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1350
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Posted - 2014.03.31 16:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Infantry vs vehicles could be a lot about cap warfare too. Flux nades could be reworked to disrupt tacnets and cloak ,destroy equipments, neut cap on vehicles, and drain stamina on dropsuits. Introducing an Amarr grenade type that focuses on an explosive that does shield bonused damage (with similar radii to locus nades).
They say it would be too complex for fps players to grasp. I don't think so at all, you make it like a stamina bar... everyone understands the stamina bar, it goes down when you turn on a module and it goes up when you turn it off.
Not rocket science here...
Agreed, and I think the 'too complex' routine is just an excuse to hide inabilities to devote development time to complicated scenarios.
CCP cannot have it both ways. You cannnot create a complex and immersive game while having banal gameplay. You either have a steep learning curve with a lot of things that a merc has to account for and monitor or you have another COD twitch shooter... there really isnt a middle ground.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1357
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Posted - 2014.03.31 23:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
We will see what CCP presents at Fanfest. They have been pretty tight lipped about Rogue's new direction of the game. This could be a big decider for mercs as to whether they will invest another year into the game.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1358
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Posted - 2014.04.01 00:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shion Typhon wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:
From my view right now, the only balancing that would need to be done is to make sure that modules are effective enough to make tanks surviveable but not invincible and to make sure that the cap drain is large enough that it gives both a window of effectiveness and vulnerability
A vehicle pilot in this scenario would have to manage his cap to make sure that he can stay in the battle and have enough reserves to gtfo using nitrous given the amount of distance there is to cover. If they mess up then they become sitting ducks. If you see things that would not work in this scenario then Im all ears.
You can already achieve what you're asking through cooldowns. I'm not saying capacitors don't work (as they clearly do so in EVE) but just like they add a level of complexity for the pilot to manage his energy levels so too do they add a level of complexity for the devs to balance. So now there's a dev sitting there trying to work out all the possible permutations of how hardeners and reppers could be used by a Mag's capacitor. CCP Shanghai can't even balance the DPS of 2 guns relative to one another, they would have no hope reproducing the complexity of capacitors, which, like I have said, CCP Iceland is still grappling with after 10 years. Your first paragraph quoted above makes it sound like a few words and its done whereas in reality it is a horribly complex task.
Of course it will be complex but it is also something that CCP already has experience balancing. There can be a level of shared learning that can be borrowed from EVE. The issue with cool downs is that it's very hard to balance one module type against another (say reppers/hardners/damage). In a cool down system, you can bypass a window as shown by having all hardners or all reppers. If CCP were to limit the amount of each that can be used then it limits the diversity of vehicle fits that pilots can use. I think that this issue will only compound when CCP tries to add more modules to vehicles such as EWar
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Dirt Nap Squad.
1358
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Posted - 2014.04.01 01:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:knight of 6 wrote:no.
vehicle combat is too fast for a capacitor to be a viable balancing tool, cool thingy/what have you. honestly I question how much time everyone who suggests this has spent in a vehicle(you aren't the first and undoubtedly wont be the last).
being completely honest the module wheel is a sub optimal solution to having a larger number of mods than buttons. anyone who has spent any time in a vehicle has turned off mods accidentally or selected the wrong mod and this typically results in death or best case a severe disadvantage. it also obstructs the screen and inhibits combat.
pulsing a rep is a common practice with a capacitor, for those unaware repairs/shield boosters take up a massive amount of cap per cycle so capsuleers switch them on and off regularly depending on how the fight is going and what other modules need to be on. can you imagine trying to pulse a rep while flying a dropship? or while in the middle of a tank battle? cap management in combat would be a nightmare.
in eve with a couple of mouse clicks you lock onto and fire on a ship automatically you don't need to aim or fire and there is no cover. flying is largely taken out of the pilots hands as well, this frees up time and concentration to focus on cap management. not to mention the TTK in eve is very long so if you make a mistake it's not the end of the world. the module activation system is very simple and fast to use unlike dust's and doesn't interrupt damage output or flight.
TL;DR no. NO. I have a copy pasta specifically for "dust needs capacitor" threads... that's pretty sad and should speak to what an unoriginal and awful idea it is.
Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it a bad idea. Vehicle battles with tank on tank might be slow but not infantry or DS. Mercs can decide for themselves whether they want to pulse or go for a more stable fit. The fact of the matter is that CCP has shown for the past year plus that they cannot balance vehicles and infantry with the cooldown system. Don't you think it's time to try something new?
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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