DUST Search - Dropsuit hindsight

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

UPDATE: Attention

The 6 at STD, 7 at ADV, 8 at PRO mod slot plan would make mediums competitive, & slayer brick-tanked scouts won't be able to out-tank and outperform medium frames at their own jobs. There is no need to nerf scouts, simply raise mod slot count on medium suits and the brick-tanked scouts won't be an issue. This thread was created before the brick-tanked scout problem, but I strongly believe my proposed slot layout solution for mediums will solve the issue. Read on, I will explain.

There are big problems with the medium frame slot layouts that need to be addressed. "Too long; didn't read" (TL;DR) version on post 2 (click here).

[Assault & logistics issues]

Slayer logi issue originates from the logis to tank more HP than their assault counterparts, allowing them to be more survivable killing platforms. This problem won't truly go away until the slots are handled correctly, just right now brick-tank scouts are bigger issue.

Logis sacrifice sidearms, mobility, & base HP in exchange for for 2-3 more equipment (equip) slots than their assault counterparts. That seems like a fair deal, but on top of the 2 or 3 more equip slots, there is some crazy weirdness with the slot layouts that leads to imbalance.

- At standard (STD) tier all logis (with the odd exception of the Amarr (Am) one) have inferior module (mod) slot layouts compared to the STD assault counterparts.
- Advanced (ADV) tier logis either get equal or superior mod slot layouts compared to their ADV assault counterparts.
- Prototype (PRO) tier logis all gain an extra low slot than their PRO assault counterpart, the caldari one also gains an extra high slot also.

Summary: logis underpowered (UP) at STD tier, balanced or overpowered (OP) at ADV, & all OP at PRO.

No reason for the Caldari (Cal) logi only having 2 equip at STD instead of 3; it isn't gaining anything extra compared to other STD logis or its assault counterpart for the sacrifice. The STD Cal logi is UP even compared to the other UP STD logis.

There is also the issue of the Am medium slot layouts. 1.8 has Am mediums shifting from hybrid tanking (equal shields & armor) to predominantly having armor; this requires a slot layout change of more low slots for effective armor tanking. Right now the progression of Am mediums is odd, they start with more high slots (2 at militia (MLT) & STD).

Am assault has less mod slots than other assaults. Yes it has a tiny 30 more base HP than the Caldari and Gallente assault, a small advantage already countered by being the slowest assault. It should be noted that the Am scout, Am sentinel, & Am commando also has more base HP compared to the other races' dropsuits of the same roles, yet these other Am suits aren't forced to give up a slot; they shouldn't have to give up a slot, and neither should the Am assault since the extra HP is already balanced by the speed loss. This problem makes the Am assault suffer the most from the brick-tanked scout problem, since the Am scout has more mod slots at STD-ADV than the assault, and same mod slot count at PRO; this allows the Am scout to surpass the Am assault in HP, while being faster, having a 2nd equip, stealthier, etc.

[Solution]

Part 1: assault & logi

Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange).

Give all assaults the same number of mod slots.

Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier:

Assault & logi STD (high/low)
Am: 2/4
Ga: 2/4
Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi)
Min: 3/3

Assault & logi ADV
Am: 2/5
Ga: 3/4
Ca: 5/2
Min: 4/3

Assault & logi PRO
Am: 3/5
Ga: 3/5
Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi)
Min: 4/4

[ EDITED OUT BASIC MEDIUM STUFF FROM QUOTE TO SAVE SPACE ]

Attention

Obviously PG/CPU should be tweaked Attention

Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

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Scheneighnay McBob Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4549	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:02:00 - [1] - Quote Just a fun thread made out of curiosity. What dropsuits did you skill into for 1.8, and what would you have done differently in hindsight? I got Amarr scout V, Minmatar scout IV, Gallente and Caldari scout III, Caldari Commando II, and Caldari Sentinel I In hindsight, I shouldn't have put anything into gallente and caldari scouts (just don't fit my play style) and instead should have gone into gallente commandos (Nothing says breaching like a plasma cannon to the face), while spreading the remaining SP across everything else. I am your scan error.
axINVICTUSxa BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 56	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:06:00 - [2] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Just a fun thread made out of curiosity. What dropsuits did you skill into for 1.8, and what would you have done differently in hindsight? I got Amarr scout V, Minmatar scout IV, Gallente and Caldari scout III, Caldari Commando II, and Caldari Sentinel I In hindsight, I shouldn't have put anything into gallente and caldari scouts (just don't fit my play style) and instead should have gone into gallente commandos (Nothing says breaching like a plasma cannon to the face), while spreading the remaining SP across everything else. The truth is, I barely put any SP into suits. A big mistake. I would have spec'd fully into Scouts. Cloaks are useful to get around the battlefield, especially when you're trying to take point and have vantage over the field. I mean I was satisfied with using the Dragonfly G-1 Scoutsuit, as I don't normally take damage as a full-on Recon/Sniper. When you sit 600 meters away from the action and peg people from that far by the time people notice you and try to kill you you can drop them. Unless, of course, vehicles, which sorely pisses me off, with dropships being the most annoying. (Although with some well-placed Charge shots you can take them down.) I wallow in pools of blood and wash myself anew, I throw away my ugly self in order to become something beautiful...
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu Lokun Listamenn 3795	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:06:00 - [3] - Quote Skilled into scouts. Some frivilous SP spending later, I think I should have tried the CalCom. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Are you OUKH?
neausea 1987 R 0 N 1 N 85	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:09:00 - [4] - Quote i went into my minmitar scout and a lil into caldari scout the rest went into the three fat suits, hindsight i should have used the caldari points for my minmitar fat suit. these heavy suits are way to much fun. when you walk around you feel like then a scout noticed you seen him and they be like you quickly grind out his 3 friends and you trap him in a corner and well bye bye GòÜ(GÇóGîéGÇó)Gò¥ ....... (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ ......... Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ i need more QQ tears MORE!!!!!!
Scheneighnay McBob Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4549	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:11:00 - [5] - Quote axINVICTUSxa wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Just a fun thread made out of curiosity. What dropsuits did you skill into for 1.8, and what would you have done differently in hindsight? I got Amarr scout V, Minmatar scout IV, Gallente and Caldari scout III, Caldari Commando II, and Caldari Sentinel I In hindsight, I shouldn't have put anything into gallente and caldari scouts (just don't fit my play style) and instead should have gone into gallente commandos (Nothing says breaching like a plasma cannon to the face), while spreading the remaining SP across everything else. The truth is, I barely put any SP into suits. A big mistake. I would have spec'd fully into Scouts. Cloaks are useful to get around the battlefield, especially when you're trying to take point and have vantage over the field. I mean I was satisfied with using the Dragonfly G-1 Scoutsuit, as I don't normally take damage as a full-on Recon/Sniper. When you sit 600 meters away from the action and peg people from that far by the time people notice you and try to kill you you can drop them. Unless, of course, vehicles, which sorely pisses me off, with dropships being the most annoying. (Although with some well-placed Charge shots you can take them down.) If you're just a sniper, caldari commando is a good idea. protection from countersnipers, and the damage bonus is great. I am your scan error.
HYENAKILLER X WILL FIGHT ANYONE 690	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:11:00 - [6] - Quote As a fiercly loyal gallente I spec'd into gal commando. I left gal logi for gal assault which I should have never succombed to due to fotm syndrome in the first place. But the cal commando look awesome. The possibilities are amazing. Im not from new eden. I dont need back up, political power or support. I, unlike you dont fear nuetral territory.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 2481	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:14:00 - [7] - Quote Amarr Mediums. I'll be happy with my choices when my ScR works consistently. I might complain about it, but I just need to accept that it's not the damage-mod-stacked CQC-destroying monstrosity that it was before. And to adapt my playstyle; that'll b the hard part... ak.0 4 LYFE CCP GIB LANCE TURRET PLOX LET ME MELEE PEOPLE WITH MY STEED
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 2302	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:15:00 - [8] - Quote I would have put it into gallante Scouts, more EHP than my chosen Minmatar Assault, Relevant Bonuses, more speed and a free cloak. I just hope Ive had the foresight to not specc into something that will get nerfed and spec into something that'll get buffed. Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 10183	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:16:00 - [9] - Quote I specialized back into Amarr assault (I have scrambler rifle proficiency) and Amarr logi (I like uplinks). They both suck in comparison to the new brick-tanking scouts able to be just as tanky, while cloaking, being faster, steathier, better passive scanners, etc. I don't regret my decision though, because things being abused for use outside their intended roles usually leads to rebalancing, so its always best to just spec for the role you want instead of FOTMs. I regret nothing. I do have a slot proposal to make medium frames' roles from being usurped by scouts: Here is the thread. KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: UPDATE: The 6 at STD, 7 at ADV, 8 at PRO mod slot plan would make mediums competitive, & slayer brick-tanked scouts won't be able to out-tank and outperform medium frames at their own jobs. There is no need to nerf scouts, simply raise mod slot count on medium suits and the brick-tanked scouts won't be an issue. This thread was created before the brick-tanked scout problem, but I strongly believe my proposed slot layout solution for mediums will solve the issue. Read on, I will explain. There are big problems with the medium frame slot layouts that need to be addressed. "Too long; didn't read" (TL;DR) version on post 2 (click here). [Assault & logistics issues] Slayer logi issue originates from the logis to tank more HP than their assault counterparts, allowing them to be more survivable killing platforms. This problem won't truly go away until the slots are handled correctly, just right now brick-tank scouts are bigger issue. Logis sacrifice sidearms, mobility, & base HP in exchange for for 2-3 more equipment (equip) slots than their assault counterparts. That seems like a fair deal, but on top of the 2 or 3 more equip slots, there is some crazy weirdness with the slot layouts that leads to imbalance. - At standard (STD) tier all logis (with the odd exception of the Amarr (Am) one) have inferior module (mod) slot layouts compared to the STD assault counterparts. - Advanced (ADV) tier logis either get equal or superior mod slot layouts compared to their ADV assault counterparts. - Prototype (PRO) tier logis all gain an extra low slot than their PRO assault counterpart, the caldari one also gains an extra high slot also. Summary: logis underpowered (UP) at STD tier, balanced or overpowered (OP) at ADV, & all OP at PRO. No reason for the Caldari (Cal) logi only having 2 equip at STD instead of 3; it isn't gaining anything extra compared to other STD logis or its assault counterpart for the sacrifice. The STD Cal logi is UP even compared to the other UP STD logis. There is also the issue of the Am medium slot layouts. 1.8 has Am mediums shifting from hybrid tanking (equal shields & armor) to predominantly having armor; this requires a slot layout change of more low slots for effective armor tanking. Right now the progression of Am mediums is odd, they start with more high slots (2 at militia (MLT) & STD). Am assault has less mod slots than other assaults. Yes it has a tiny 30 more base HP than the Caldari and Gallente assault, a small advantage already countered by being the slowest assault. It should be noted that the Am scout, Am sentinel, & Am commando also has more base HP compared to the other races' dropsuits of the same roles, yet these other Am suits aren't forced to give up a slot; they shouldn't have to give up a slot, and neither should the Am assault since the extra HP is already balanced by the speed loss. This problem makes the Am assault suffer the most from the brick-tanked scout problem, since the Am scout has more mod slots at STD-ADV than the assault, and same mod slot count at PRO; this allows the Am scout to surpass the Am assault in HP, while being faster, having a 2nd equip, stealthier, etc. [Solution] Part 1: assault & logi Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange). Give all assaults the same number of mod slots. Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier: Assault & logi STD (high/low) Am: 2/4 Ga: 2/4 Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 3/3 Assault & logi ADV Am: 2/5 Ga: 3/4 Ca: 5/2 Min: 4/3 Assault & logi PRO Am: 3/5 Ga: 3/5 Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 4/4 [ EDITED OUT BASIC MEDIUM STUFF FROM QUOTE TO SAVE SPACE ] Obviously PG/CPU should be tweaked Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 380	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:16:00 - [10] - Quote I pretty much just put it all back where it was, Amarri Sentinel, Amarri Ligi, Minmatar Logi, Minmatar Scout, all level 1. I added Commando too. I could have just went proto on one but that isn't how I play and I had Advanced Logi suits but put it into biotic and equipment skills instead. I think I did it right. I actually play Amarri logi now, I had pretty much shelved it. Because, that's why.

Scheneighnay McBob Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4549	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:17:00 - [11] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Amarr Mediums. I'll be happy with my choices when my ScR works consistently. I might complain about it, but I just need to accept that it's not the damage-mod-stacked CQC-destroying monstrosity that it was before. And to adapt my playstyle; that'll b the hard part... I use scrambler rifles on my scout. What I like to do if I find myself in a firefight is to just stick to cover, charge, then pop out and hit someone. I am your scan error.
Vitharr Foebane Living Like Larry Schwag 956	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:18:00 - [12] - Quote All Amarr btw... Sentinal V Scout V Assault IV Logistics III Commando III And I dont regret any of it :P Thanks CCP for making the HMG Heavy viable again :3 That's no excuse to slack off on releasing a heavy laser though =.=
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3860	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:21:00 - [13] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: stuff I like this better than your previous slot plan. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Poison Howl Annubian Guard 0	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:27:00 - [14] - Quote The only choice I regret is Min. Commando level 5. As great a suit it is, I could've used those points to max my cpu and pg.
The Eristic Sad Panda Solutions 325	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:28:00 - [15] - Quote Main - nothing at the moment, was Amarr Assault V, will probably go back into that (since I have Prof IV ScR) and either a Scout or the rest of the Assaults, can't decide Alt 1 - Amarr Commando V, Amarr Scout IV (in hindsight, should've gone V), Amarr Sentinel III Alt 2 - Min Scout IV, Min Commando & Sentinel III, Min Assault I Alt 3 - Cal Commando, Sentinel & Scout III, Cal Assault I Alt 4 - Gal Commando, Sentinel & Scout III, Gal Assault I Alt 5 - nothing yet, will probably be Amarr logi or (hopefully) Pilot eventually, it's part of a long term project so I may not skill it into any suits for a long time or ever
Skullmiser Vulcansu the third day Galactic Skyfleet Empire 81	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:34:00 - [16] - Quote I got my Amarr Logistics suit before I realized that they ruined Scrambler pistols without mentioning it in the patch notes. If this game was fun, I wouldn't be playing it.
Patrick57 Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 6393	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:36:00 - [17] - Quote I got Proto Amarr Scout and level two Gallente Sentinel. I could've put that SP all into Shield skills for vehicles, but I didn't. :D
LT SHANKS Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 1761	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:43:00 - [18] - Quote My Amarr Heavy stayed an Amarr Heavy. My MinLogi became a GalScout and my MinAssault became precision enhancement and range amplification.
Disturbingly Bored Forum Warfare 2113	Posted - 2014.03.30 01:46:00 - [19] - Quote I put SP back into Amarr Sentinel V, then Minmatar Sentinel IV. Still glad on both. (Minmatar fatty is a fun Forge Sniper.) I have 3.5 mil SP I haven't spent on top of that. Maybe I'll save up for the Plasma Mortar or Scrambler Lancer... I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 998	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:13:00 - [20] - Quote I specced completely out of dropsuits, polished my core skills, and got every single weapon to prof 3 (heavy, light and side ) I'm an effin omni soldier. Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.

Scheneighnay McBob Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 4554	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:20:00 - [21] - Quote Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: I specced completely out of dropsuits, polished my core skills, and got every single weapon to prof 3 (heavy, light and side ) I'm an effin omni soldier. An omni soldier who can only use militia suits? I am your scan error.
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS Caps and Mercs 1000	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:30:00 - [22] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: I specced completely out of dropsuits, polished my core skills, and got every single weapon to prof 3 (heavy, light and side ) I'm an effin omni soldier. An omni soldier who can only use militia suits? Why not? I've got the full skinweave set(actually, two of them), bpo lav, templar set, the original set of bpo standard suits (sver, raven, dragonfly, etc). I can use aurum to use standard level speciality suits for now. I'm in a good place. >:3 Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in one of these specialties, and there are none who can compare in all of them.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 1652	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:44:00 - [23] - Quote hindsight is 20/20 I am happy with the gallente scout and glad I re-skilled into it. moving into the future I'd like to skill into the caldari scout as well. GÇ£Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I am dampened.GÇ¥ Ko6 scout,
zDemoncake Horizons' Edge 98	Posted - 2014.03.30 02:45:00 - [24] - Quote Straight back into Minmatar logistics. All the other SP went to core upgrades :) CEO of Horizons' Edge mercenary division *My soul, your beats!* Enemy to many; equal to none.


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