Celus Ivara
DUST University
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Posted - 2014.03.28 02:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
Cloaks are very fun and interesting, but there are some scenarios where they can be very unbalanced.
My 2 ISK on bringing them into balance:
(Keep in mind, I am a hardcore Scout who loves the Cloak.)
- I really, really disagree with Cloaks decreasing scan profile when active.
I was expecting Active Scanners to be the counter to Cloaks. As it stands now, there is no counter to these things.
I'd say the law of fits should apply: to be awesome in one area means sacrificing in another.
To obtain complete invisibility, one should have to make a sacrifice to the fit by having to burn a Low or two on Dampeners.
- A slightly increased delay before being able to attack would help ease issues.
- Perhaps also a small amount of cloak power being consumed by activating cloak; thus hindering people who flicker in and out of cloak super quickly. This isn't bad in and of itself, but it's a big part of how a single Scout is now able to shred an entire squad with little risk of becoming vulnerable by running out of cloak.
- I would also be fine with being hit causing the Cloak to shimmer. Other games have used this to help provide a counter to cloaks, and it helps enable the Cat and Mouse game that Cloaks should provide.
What won't work:
Increasing CPU/PG costs of Cloak.
While on first pass this seems like it'll open up the balance via fitting sacrifices; the fact is that a competent Scout can do tons of damage with a Basic Cloak on an Advanced or Proto suit.
Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
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Celus Ivara
DUST University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2014.03.29 03:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:Jathniel wrote:
You're not supposed to counter alpha-cloaks. They have successfully "snuck up on you and you deserve to die".
Funny how that works huh?
quoting to put emphasis on an important point. Sometimes you just get got.
I think "just getting got" is fine.
Same as how you can be insta-fragged by a sniper you never knew was there. Or being a non-AV infantry up against a tank.
Thing though is there are counters to snipers and tanks (Okay, AV-imbalance issue, but still.).
There is very little you can do to counter Cloaked Scouts. There is no anti-cloak fit.
The Active Scanner should be a valid counter, but the Cloak makes you invisible to scanners as well as eyes.
Remove the Scan Profile reduction from the Cloak. Make it so complete stealth requires becoming squishy/slow by sacrificing a Low or two to Dampeners.
This is coming from a Proto Cloaked Scout.
Being untouchable isn't fun. Going up against other Scouts who are untouchable isn't fun
Where's my kryptonite?
What's the point of being a cobra if there's no mongoose?
Supporting Kevall Longstride, CEO of DUST University, for CPM1
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Celus Ivara
DUST University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2014.04.03 02:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
To clarify, I don't mean Scouts should be picked up on Passive scanners, I am only referring to the Active scanners here.
Moreover, I'm mainly thinking about the Advanced and Proto tiers of Active scanners. If the stealthiest characters in the game were picked up on Basic gear then what's the point of going Proto?
Jathniel wrote: I have a focused scanner on my cal scout, and I detect other scouts just fine. Really?
I made a Gal Logi with Proto 20db scanners just to counter Cloaks and have been unable to reveal anything.
Perhaps the Proto scanners will reveal Scouts, and I'm just doing it wrong. Guess some in-game testing is in order.
Now, I'm not dismissing all other solutions people have put forward for balancing Cloaks.
As you can see from a post I made earlier in this thread, I feel a multi-faceted approach is best.
Also, to make a particular point:
Jathniel wrote:Again, the only thing I would do is add a profile penalty to complex shield extenders and armor plates. COMPLEX-only, because those are the ones making the scouts durable. If they want to tank up, you get to see them coming. I feel what you suggested here is viable too. The idea that you and others have put forward about greater hindrances to the Light suit for "brick-tanking" has potential as well.
All that said though, I'm still concerned about the lack of a counter to Cloaks at a fitting level.
If the enemy is spamming tanks you can swap to an AV fit.
If the enemy has troublesome snipers, there are counter-sniping fits.
There is no Anti-Cloak fit.
Now the absence of a specific counter fit isn't necessarily unbalanced; perhaps the counter is found at the gameplay level.
Like, the counter to Heavies is to focus-fire on them or their Logi.
Counter to Assault is to just out death-match them.
Perhaps a counter to Cloaked Scouts can be discovered at the gameplay level too.
But in the absence of proactive Scout hunting measures (damage doesn't reveal them, fluxes don't reveal them, Proto Scanners don't reveal them,...) the only counter is reactive. Wait for the Scout to reveal themselves then counter.
In my experience though, when against a talented Scout player, once they've taken the action that reveals themselves, the other player is dead. (Thus unable to counter at the gameplay level.)
We need to either:
- Make Cloaks counterable at the gameplay level (increased delay after decloaking before being able to fire, sound on decloak, damage shimmers cloak,...)
- Make Cloaks counterable at the fitting level (Proto/Advanced Active Scanners revealing them, Fluxes revealing them,...)
Or both.
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