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Are hardeners really the issue with tanks??

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Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 678	Posted - 2014.03.27 12:53:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Yes. I don't know the exact hotfix that's planned yet (they're working on it at the moment) but we'll post an update when we know. Just hardeners??? Are you kidding me? GREAT, so now my gunnlogi is going back to being the underdog and the maddie the go to tank. The only way for a shield tank to often survive is through those resistances. The problem isn't the strength of those hardeners but the length of which they last. A shield tank is already rather weak. Is adding a stacking penalty actually that bad an idea for hardeners? Given I don't know what this hotfix entails so I may be jumping the gun, but need I point to past experiences with your famed "fixes". And is this AV imbalance really as serious as you think?? Just yesterday I destroyed quite a few tanks with my proto forgegun (whenever the ******* thing decided to fire that is!). My prox mines still wreck tanks, enough re's do the trick, ect. But what about swarmers, the most popular AV weapon of choice, as it is the easiest to get into. Those are the underdogs that need addressed. A swarmer does no damage to a shield tank with hardeners (won't change with a nerf to hardener resistance). I'm not cool with this, at the very least they should stop shield regen to make them more viable on the field, forcing a shield tanker to reconsider it's course. At the moment, swarms don't do enough damage to negate shield regen, which they should do naturally anyways. A swarmer does do damage to armor tanks, but those god reps can rep right through them. And if a maddie is really hurting, they just need to pull out for but a few seconds and charge back in FULL STRENGTH. I run double reps with a single hardener, and wreck most other blaster tanks and any AV that wants to get fresh. Where are these waves of opportunity you spoke of, and how does addressing "hardeners" address both types of tanks? Cripple one, while hardly touching the other, the way I see it. And how about addressing the fact that a shield tank can easily duel tank, where most of the problem lay. Here's a sica fit for you, that requires no SP invested and wrecks tanks all day long! Double damage mods, Heavy plate, Heavy rep. How does changing hardeners address that fact? What about railguns, does this mean that a MLT turret will be better able to kill SP invested tanks. How about dropships, how does changing hardeners affect their performance, thought they had it bad enough as is. But hey, CCP knows best huh. lol Tanks - Balancing Turrets
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 12602	Posted - 2014.03.27 12:58:00 - [2] - Quote I've given up on a balanced DUST. I'm actually starting to suspect that CPM is a big part of our problems, and that these half baked changes keep coming down the pipe thanks to their "feedback". "It seems you've mistaken me for someone who cares"
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 680	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:04:00 - [3] - Quote Additionally, the following changes were planned to go out during downtime on the 27th. However, during testing we found an issue with the changes that prevented them from working successfully. Rather than delay the other fixes we decided to follow up and fix these with a further update tomorrow (the 28th). * Vehicle Shield Hardener bonus reduced from 60% to 40%. * Small Railgun range has been reduced from 300m to 200m. OMG, ******* 40% to shield hardeners only. ARe you kidding me. It's worse than I thought. Yeah shield tanks are the same as armor tanks, so let's put hardeners on the same level. WTF, does anyone at CCP PLAY a tank or what???? Pull out your maddies boys, shields are going back to redline campin! Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Havaru Fox Golden Empire of EvE 93	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:04:00 - [4] - Quote well, he hardeners are a start, but i also dont understand why they have to do it in this way, because the shield tank sucks compared to the gallente one. -you cant aim down as much as the gallente one -the first hit without hardeners deals full damage /gallente turns it on before you are in armor) -shields dont give as much as armor -the repair of armor is passive and shield is a boost there are enoth tanks that run 3 repair tools over the hardeners and they will still be abel to tank a lot!
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3098	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:12:00 - [5] - Quote Look at EVE All shields regen passively all the time no matter how much damage is being caused You can create a passive build in EVE But in DUST you cannot since the shield regen can be stopped, all you have to defend yourself is resistances, boosters are a 1 time thing and extenders generally are useless because once its gone its gone because shield regen is stopped Intelligence is OP
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 681	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:14:00 - [6] - Quote Havaru Fox wrote: well, he hardeners are a start, but i also dont understand why they have to do it in this way, because the shield tank sucks compared to the gallente one. -you cant aim down as much as the gallente one -the first hit without hardeners deals full damage /gallente turns it on before you are in armor) -shields dont give as much as armor -the repair of armor is passive and shield is a boost there are enoth tanks that run 3 repair tools over the hardeners and they will still be abel to tank a lot! Shield booster don't work for one (Sometimes but not often) It really doesn't make sense, how can they call this balancing? I don't understand why they can't just add stacking penalties for using multiple hardeners. Having more than one decreases potential uptime, or even reducing the benefit of that second hardeners resist, and making a 3rd nearly pointless. I'm all for fixing tanks, not breaking them, AGAIN. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 681	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:15:00 - [7] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Look at EVE All shields regen passively all the time no matter how much damage is being caused You can create a passive build in EVE But in DUST you cannot since the shield regen can be stopped, all you have to defend yourself is resistances, boosters are a 1 time thing and extenders generally are useless because once its gone its gone because shield regen is stopped While maddies passively rep ALL THE TIME. Way to nerf shield tanks into the ground CCP! Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 705	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:15:00 - [8] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Additionally, the following changes were planned to go out during downtime on the 27th. However, during testing we found an issue with the changes that prevented them from working successfully. Rather than delay the other fixes we decided to follow up and fix these with a further update tomorrow (the 28th). * Vehicle Shield Hardener bonus reduced from 60% to 40%. * Small Railgun range has been reduced from 300m to 200m. OMG, ******* 40% to shield hardeners only. ARe you kidding me. It's worse than I thought. Yeah shield tanks are the same as armor tanks, so let's put hardeners on the same level. WTF, does anyone at CCP PLAY a tank or what???? Pull out your maddies boys, shields are going back to redline campin! The day 25% = 40% is the day I give up on understanding equality. Those two are not on the same level. They differ by 15%... Newb
Zene Ren Bullet Cluster 65	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:18:00 - [9] - Quote not only hardeners native HAV and DS AV resistance plus hardeners math algorithm is broken in game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls7hOEdNgXE watch this from start and you will know what is wrong Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 681	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:25:00 - [10] - Quote Cenex Langly wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Additionally, the following changes were planned to go out during downtime on the 27th. However, during testing we found an issue with the changes that prevented them from working successfully. Rather than delay the other fixes we decided to follow up and fix these with a further update tomorrow (the 28th). * Vehicle Shield Hardener bonus reduced from 60% to 40%. * Small Railgun range has been reduced from 300m to 200m. OMG, ******* 40% to shield hardeners only. ARe you kidding me. It's worse than I thought. Yeah shield tanks are the same as armor tanks, so let's put hardeners on the same level. WTF, does anyone at CCP PLAY a tank or what???? Pull out your maddies boys, shields are going back to redline campin! The day 25% = 40% is the day I give up on understanding equality. Those two are not on the same level. They differ by 15%... You are right, could of swore it was 40%, but the point is, maddies don't rely on hardeners for protection. They have a larger pool of HP and passive reps for this. Where shield tanks, the only thing that saves them are the resistances. Oh well, won't need damage mods to drop hardened shield tanks anymore. Tanks - Balancing Turrets

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3100	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:29:00 - [11] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Look at EVE All shields regen passively all the time no matter how much damage is being caused You can create a passive build in EVE But in DUST you cannot since the shield regen can be stopped, all you have to defend yourself is resistances, boosters are a 1 time thing and extenders generally are useless because once its gone its gone because shield regen is stopped While maddies passively rep ALL THE TIME. Way to nerf shield tanks into the ground CCP! Yup Back to front really Intelligence is OP
Beeeees KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 492	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:31:00 - [12] - Quote Hardeners arent, spammability is. Its not that tanks are hard to get, there are just to many to handle for infantry alone. TOLD514
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 682	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:32:00 - [13] - Quote Zene Ren wrote: not only hardeners native HAV and DS AV resistance plus hardeners math algorithm is broken in game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls7hOEdNgXE watch this from start and you will know what is wrong Yeah, swarms are still going to be the underdog, against shield tanks. Doing no damage whatsoever. While at the same time, shields will be incredibly vulnerable against high alpha weapons like forgeguns and railguns, as a paltry 2650 shields is nothing spectacular. The problem with shield and AV interaction isn't the strength, but the fact that explosive weapons can be negated by a hardener or 2. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3701	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:32:00 - [14] - Quote No more than one active module of any kind to be equippable. And a nerf to armour reps. IMO that would cover such a large part of the tank spam. No.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 682	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:34:00 - [15] - Quote Beeeees wrote: Hardeners arent, spammability is. Its not that tanks are hard to get, there are just to many to handle for infantry alone. And that's the point. You can't address a single aspect of tanks as the problem. It's a culmination of different things that make it rough on infantry trying to deal with them. But in this instance, it's not going to fix the tank problem. It will simply shift the power to armor tanks. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 682	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:36:00 - [16] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: No more than one active module of any kind to be equippable. And a nerf to armour reps. IMO that would cover such a large part of the tank spam. I disagree with that, as that would mean you can't have a hardener and booster on. But like I've suggested in the past, implementing penalties for stacking hardeners would fix a lot of the "problems". Not to mention adjusting the price of MLT to more reflect their strength, reducing the tank spam at the same time. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 846	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:38:00 - [17] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I've given up on a balanced DUST. I'm actually starting to suspect that CPM is a big part of our problems, and that these half baked changes keep coming down the pipe thanks to their "feedback". Here I could agree...
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 12606	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:40:00 - [18] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: No more than one active module of any kind to be equippable. And a nerf to armour reps. IMO that would cover such a large part of the tank spam. I disagree with that, as that would mean you can't have a hardener and booster on. But like I've suggested in the past, implementing penalties for stacking hardeners would fix a lot of the "problems". Not to mention adjusting the price of MLT to more reflect their strength, reducing the tank spam at the same time. I think just limiting one active module of *- any given kind -* would go a long way towards evening things out. Armor reps could use a strong stacking penalty, not a base nerf. MLT tanks merely need to be forced to fit turrets. "It seems you've mistaken me for someone who cares"
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3100	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:43:00 - [19] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: No more than one active module of any kind to be equippable. And a nerf to armour reps. IMO that would cover such a large part of the tank spam. I disagree with that, as that would mean you can't have a hardener and booster on. But like I've suggested in the past, implementing penalties for stacking hardeners would fix a lot of the "problems". Not to mention adjusting the price of MLT to more reflect their strength, reducing the tank spam at the same time. I think just limiting one active module of *- any given kind -* would go a long way towards evening things out. Armor reps could use a strong stacking penalty, not a base nerf. MLT tanks merely need to be forced to fit turrets. Cant do that Less variety of fits Taking the sand out of the sandbox, i should be able to fit my tank anyway i like, just like i do with my suits even tho the bonus is useless if you use a rep tool on an amarr logi for example Hate getting pigeon holed Intelligence is OP
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 682	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:46:00 - [20] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: No more than one active module of any kind to be equippable. And a nerf to armour reps. IMO that would cover such a large part of the tank spam. I disagree with that, as that would mean you can't have a hardener and booster on. But like I've suggested in the past, implementing penalties for stacking hardeners would fix a lot of the "problems". Not to mention adjusting the price of MLT to more reflect their strength, reducing the tank spam at the same time. I think just limiting one active module of *- any given kind -* would go a long way towards evening things out. Armor reps could use a strong stacking penalty, not a base nerf. MLT tanks merely need to be forced to fit turrets. Eh, can't say I agree, because with just one hardener, shield tanks go down like nothing. It's the reason I run 2 ( never 3, scrubs run 3). But my idea, say you have one hardener at 30 seconds uptime 60 seconds downtime. So with stacking penalties, using a second hardener bumps your cooldown time by 30 seconds. So now it takes a minute and a half for BOTH hardeners to cooldown. Or any variation of that. In this way you get to stack hardeners, but not willy nilly without any drawbacks. Tanks - Balancing Turrets

Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 685	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:47:00 - [21] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: No more than one active module of any kind to be equippable. And a nerf to armour reps. IMO that would cover such a large part of the tank spam. I disagree with that, as that would mean you can't have a hardener and booster on. But like I've suggested in the past, implementing penalties for stacking hardeners would fix a lot of the "problems". Not to mention adjusting the price of MLT to more reflect their strength, reducing the tank spam at the same time. I think just limiting one active module of *- any given kind -* would go a long way towards evening things out. Armor reps could use a strong stacking penalty, not a base nerf. MLT tanks merely need to be forced to fit turrets. Cant do that Less variety of fits Taking the sand out of the sandbox, i should be able to fit my tank anyway i like, just like i do with my suits even tho the bonus is useless if you use a rep tool on an amarr logi for example Hate getting pigeon holed Weird agreeing with ol taka here, lol. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui The Containment Unit 450	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:47:00 - [22] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I've given up on a balanced DUST. I'm actually starting to suspect that CPM is a big part of our problems, and that these half baked changes keep coming down the pipe thanks to their "feedback". Yes they are . I understood that as soon as one mentioned that killing the shield boost were their ideal . One pulse isn't even worth the trouble and they should have kept the mechanics from the 1.6 vehicle shield boosters . They were much more helpful . They along with some in the higher up's of CCP and some in the community are killing this game . Give me back my SP's that you took from taking my light C-1 series suits CCP . You took my suits and my SP's without refunding my SP's . Leave all negative comments about tanks in the bin marked " TRASH " and we'll get to it as soon as possible . Thank You
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 12608	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:49:00 - [23] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I think just limiting one active module of *- any given kind -* would go a long way towards evening things out. Armor reps could use a strong stacking penalty, not a base nerf. MLT tanks merely need to be forced to fit turrets. Cant do that Less variety of fits Taking the sand out of the sandbox, i should be able to fit my tank anyway i like, just like i do with my suits even tho the bonus is useless if you use a rep tool on an amarr logi for example Hate getting pigeon holed Well I'd rather have one useful module than multiple over nerfed modules, since CCP can't seem to figure out a balance. If nothing else, CCP needs to seriously address module stacking for both vehicles and infantry alike. "It seems you've mistaken me for someone who cares"
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Dirt Nap Squad. 685	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:51:00 - [24] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I think just limiting one active module of *- any given kind -* would go a long way towards evening things out. Armor reps could use a strong stacking penalty, not a base nerf. MLT tanks merely need to be forced to fit turrets. Cant do that Less variety of fits Taking the sand out of the sandbox, i should be able to fit my tank anyway i like, just like i do with my suits even tho the bonus is useless if you use a rep tool on an amarr logi for example Hate getting pigeon holed Well I'd rather have one useful module than multiple over nerfed modules, since CCP can't seem to figure out a balance. If nothing else, CCP needs to seriously address module stacking for both vehicles and infantry alike. Yes they do, and nerfing the overall resistance doesn't address that fact. Nor the tank spam, or the uselessness of swarms. ECT, Ect ect. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Zene Ren Bullet Cluster 65	Posted - 2014.03.27 13:55:00 - [25] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Zene Ren wrote: not only hardeners native HAV and DS AV resistance plus hardeners math algorithm is broken in game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls7hOEdNgXE watch this from start and you will know what is wrong Yeah, swarms are still going to be the underdog, against shield tanks. Doing no damage whatsoever. While at the same time, shields will be incredibly vulnerable against high alpha weapons like forgeguns and railguns, as a paltry 2650 shields is nothing spectacular. The problem with shield and AV interaction isn't the strength, but the fact that explosive weapons can be negated by a hardener or 2. not only swarms IMO, AV granades are also hit by this flawed calculations from what i've noticed in game Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1954	Posted - 2014.03.27 17:39:00 - [26] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: No more than one active module of any kind to be equippable. And a nerf to armour reps. IMO that would cover such a large part of the tank spam. Fine then, no more than 2 modules that add HP, as in shield extenders or armor plates. No more than 2 armor repper modules per suit. No more than 1 damage mod per suit. Do you like where I'm going with this? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim


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