DUST Search - Why the HMG WON'T be OP in 1.8

Zero Harpuia wrote:

LEHON Xeon wrote:

Zero Harpuia wrote:

Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote:

Zero Harpuia wrote:

The HMG is the only automatic weapon not to be nerfed in 1.8. We all know this because people won't shut the hell up about it. So why is it NOT going to be OP?

1. The RIFLES (and SMG) are all that are getting nerfed. Small 'caliber' weapons. And they still have much better range than the HMG
2. The HMG is ALSO getting nerfed. ALL Damage Modifiers are nerfed, including Heavy ones.
3. Non-Hitscan weapons are getting BUFFED. A revving Heavy will get eaten by a Mass Driver or Laser Rifle.

Its a sensitive balance. HMGs are the king of close quarters automatic weapons. They beat Rifles, but special weapons beat them HARD. A Heavy cannot feasably get away from a Laser or MD. Think outside the Rifle box people.

1. This just disproves your point, and what does range matter if you have an invincible vehicle to drive you around every time you need to get somewhere?

2. GÇªGÇªyou just pointed out why the heavy/HMG combo will be even more OP in 1.8

3. Yeah those OP non aim assisted weapons that you have a paltry 25% resistance to

They beat out rifles, they beat out knives, they beat out mass drivers, they beat out PLC's, they beat out shotguns. AKA balanced

1. Clown Cars are already broken. You can't assume that every Heavy will be using them, nor can you give up hope that CCP will fix them eventually. That hope is pretty much all we have.

2. So it'll be more OP because they won't do as much damage?

3. Yea, those non-aim assisted weapons that are getting buffed, and will do huge amounts of damage to a slow target that can't evade them. You will actually have to aim in order to kill Heavies. What a novel concept.

They get blown up by direct hits, they get sniped, they get knived, they get vehiclepwned, and they get eaten at range. AKA Balanced.

Good, you tell me the same thing then when it becomes almost impossible to take over the objective in a domination match because the other team is scrubs primarily camping the objective with fatsuit sentinels. Then you'll have the ones using light weapons like the RR along with the rest using HMGs so you can't really get in at any moderate range. Only way you'll be able to get in there is through a battle of attrition requiring at least 5-6 people minimum and maybe even a vehicle or two depending on the map. Only other way you're going to get in there is if a bunch of scouts can sneak in and plant a ton of REs or do a lot of knifing.

You mean an organized defense will have the advantage? In a mode where the entire point of the 25 minute battle is a single big defense/siege? Using the suit tailor-made for defense? With the weapon tailor-made for close quarters, defensive combat?
Perish the thought.

It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San


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LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 315	Posted - 2014.03.14 01:20:00 - [1] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: The HMG is the only automatic weapon not to be nerfed in 1.8. We all know this because people won't shut the hell up about it. So why is it NOT going to be OP? 1. The RIFLES (and SMG) are all that are getting nerfed. Small 'caliber' weapons. And they still have much better range than the HMG 2. The HMG is ALSO getting nerfed. ALL Damage Modifiers are nerfed, including Heavy ones. 3. Non-Hitscan weapons are getting BUFFED. A revving Heavy will get eaten by a Mass Driver or Laser Rifle. Its a sensitive balance. HMGs are the king of close quarters automatic weapons. They beat Rifles, but special weapons beat them HARD. A Heavy cannot feasably get away from a Laser or MD. Think outside the Rifle box people. 1. This just disproves your point, and what does range matter if you have an invincible vehicle to drive you around every time you need to get somewhere? 2. GÇªGÇªyou just pointed out why the heavy/HMG combo will be even more OP in 1.8 3. Yeah those OP non aim assisted weapons that you have a paltry 25% resistance to They beat out rifles, they beat out knives, they beat out mass drivers, they beat out PLC's, they beat out shotguns. AKA balanced 1. Clown Cars are already broken. You can't assume that every Heavy will be using them, nor can you give up hope that CCP will fix them eventually. That hope is pretty much all we have. 2. So it'll be more OP because they won't do as much damage? 3. Yea, those non-aim assisted weapons that are getting buffed, and will do huge amounts of damage to a slow target that can't evade them. You will actually have to aim in order to kill Heavies. What a novel concept. They get blown up by direct hits, they get sniped, they get knived, they get vehiclepwned, and they get eaten at range. AKA Balanced. Good, you tell me the same thing then when it becomes almost impossible to take over the objective in a domination match because the other team is scrubs primarily camping the objective with catsuit sentinels (or even in a skirmish, you're trying to defend an objective and three heavies roll up in a LAV or two with HMGs). Then you'll have the ones using light weapons like the RR along with the rest using HMGs so you can't really get in at any moderate range. Only way you'll be able to get in there is through a battle of attrition requiring at least 5-6 people minimum and maybe even a vehicle or two depending on the map. Only other way you're going to get in there is if a bunch of scouts can sneak in and plant a ton of REs or do a lot of knifing. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 315	Posted - 2014.03.14 01:24:00 - [2] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: The only valid point is damage mods. That's all you needed to say. The only reason HMGs are so "OP" or whatever as everyone says they are is because of damage mods. Two damage mods and a boundless and your face is melted faster than you can react. Can't wait for 1.8 :P I've always liked what Fox Gaden said in another post quite awhile ago. The other reason HMGs are OP is that stupid "sloth" effect when you get hit by them. There's no way you can even get to cover or around a corner fast enough. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 316	Posted - 2014.03.14 05:03:00 - [3] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: LEHON Xeon wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: The HMG is the only automatic weapon not to be nerfed in 1.8. We all know this because people won't shut the hell up about it. So why is it NOT going to be OP? 1. The RIFLES (and SMG) are all that are getting nerfed. Small 'caliber' weapons. And they still have much better range than the HMG 2. The HMG is ALSO getting nerfed. ALL Damage Modifiers are nerfed, including Heavy ones. 3. Non-Hitscan weapons are getting BUFFED. A revving Heavy will get eaten by a Mass Driver or Laser Rifle. Its a sensitive balance. HMGs are the king of close quarters automatic weapons. They beat Rifles, but special weapons beat them HARD. A Heavy cannot feasably get away from a Laser or MD. Think outside the Rifle box people. 1. This just disproves your point, and what does range matter if you have an invincible vehicle to drive you around every time you need to get somewhere? 2. GÇªGÇªyou just pointed out why the heavy/HMG combo will be even more OP in 1.8 3. Yeah those OP non aim assisted weapons that you have a paltry 25% resistance to They beat out rifles, they beat out knives, they beat out mass drivers, they beat out PLC's, they beat out shotguns. AKA balanced 1. Clown Cars are already broken. You can't assume that every Heavy will be using them, nor can you give up hope that CCP will fix them eventually. That hope is pretty much all we have. 2. So it'll be more OP because they won't do as much damage? 3. Yea, those non-aim assisted weapons that are getting buffed, and will do huge amounts of damage to a slow target that can't evade them. You will actually have to aim in order to kill Heavies. What a novel concept. They get blown up by direct hits, they get sniped, they get knived, they get vehiclepwned, and they get eaten at range. AKA Balanced. Good, you tell me the same thing then when it becomes almost impossible to take over the objective in a domination match because the other team is scrubs primarily camping the objective with fatsuit sentinels. Then you'll have the ones using light weapons like the RR along with the rest using HMGs so you can't really get in at any moderate range. Only way you'll be able to get in there is through a battle of attrition requiring at least 5-6 people minimum and maybe even a vehicle or two depending on the map. Only other way you're going to get in there is if a bunch of scouts can sneak in and plant a ton of REs or do a lot of knifing. You mean an organized defense will have the advantage? In a mode where the entire point of the 25 minute battle is a single big defense/siege? Using the suit tailor-made for defense? With the weapon tailor-made for close quarters, defensive combat? Perish the thought. There's a difference between an organized defense plan versus something that cannot be brought down because everybody all uses the same exact thing due to there being very little real counters to it. The issue I still take is that I could buy your argument if it was a close quarters defense with these suits. However there are going to be tons of people that are going to use RR and people in some maps are not even going to be able to get anywhere even near these places if the other side does a full camping layout. People thought the Gallente research facility map city before was bad in domination with the supply depot? Wait until these new sentinels just decide to move outwards from the silo and camp those exterior pillbox areas with RRs. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 318	Posted - 2014.03.14 05:13:00 - [4] - Quote I think it's time for me to bring in the numbers again as I grow tired of people with these "heavies are fine" arguments. Bringing in from my post from before: "Here's my issue with these new heavies. First of all, like some other guys said in here already, HMG is taking no nerfs at all. That may eventually cause a problem a long the lines with being able to get into and take over objectives in skirmishes. Get a couple heavies camping a letter (particularly in a dom) and you aren't going to be getting in there any time soon most likely without some sort of vehicle or a ton of people. HMGs already cut down people pretty good the way it is. You can have a TTK increase all you want, it still will equal out in the end back to what we have now, but this isn't the main problem. The main problem with HMGs currently is that slowdown or "sloth" effect when hit by continuous streams of bullets, completely stopping any player's ability to get behind cover once they get fired upon by an HMG. Second, we're all taking a grenade nerf, both actively through a reduction in the number we can carry and also subtly through heavy explosive resistances. I like to use core nades at times. They especially are helpful when you have heavies that spawn in around an objective you're hacking and try to get the jump on you. Bring down their shields with a CR or ScR while jumping around while cooking a core nade, toss that sucker and a lot of times you can then finish them off. No longer possible with the explosive resistances. I'll just use the base damage for a rough estimate, take 25% off of 600 and you're already down to 450. You get a sentinel that is using brick tank with around 1300 armor, you aren't even going to get through half his HP. Then you combine that with rifle nerfs, proficiency nerfs, and damage mod nerfs, and things are gonna get ugly. I can say the same with REs. Take 25% off of 1500 and you're down to 1,125. Fully tanked Amarr sentinels will easily resist RE blasts without an issue, and if their shields full to begin with, more than one RE. Then if we look at the Gallente sentinel with a comparable armor HP level, we find that he will be able to resist at least one RE. If the RE was placed merely to guard an objective against hacking, that Gallente sentinel can absorb the RE blast (if he has full shields possibly more than one RE even), hack the objective and then automatically start repping from his passive armor repair. Yes these bonuses may be small, but if no one can get back to that objective immediately, he can simply camp it, while his passive armor repair (even though it is only 1 hp/sec and very small) would let him hold that area combined with his shield reserves until a logi or someone with a rep tool or hive arrived. Even if he had to "hold out" briefly, within around 5 minutes his entire base suit armor level would be almost fully repaired. Lastly we have the resistance bonuses. I'll use Gallente and Amarr as those have the rail/projectile resistance. For any engagements at any range, most people are going to be still using RR or CR as an armor counter weapon (although we'll see somewhat of a return of MD I'm sure). If people using these Amarr/Gallente sentinels hold true to the heavy idea and use HMGs, then this whole ordeal will not even be an issue, however as this last event has shown, we now have plenty of scrubs that use sentinel fatsuits with RR. Taking this resistance bonus into account, that's 10 to 15% for projectile and rail weapons. This means that any medium suit, even a tanked logi suit with RR with the max out of around 1000 eHP still will fail miserably in a standard engagement with a sentinel suit. It's plain mathematics. If they notice each other at around the same time (fighting even at the longest optimal range available), or even if the logi suit gets a slight jump on the Amarr sentinel from a flank, he is still going to loose. 1000 eHP is not going to outdo around 2000 eHP. It's as simple as that. That is just from what we have now already pre 1.8 Now you factor in that extra 10 or 15% resistance and that Amarr or Gallente sentinel will trump that logi or other medium suit every single time. Like the OP said above, that 15% makes for an extra 210 more HP. Does not seem like much, but when we are dealing with these high of numbers, that is a ton. That sentinel will be afforded at least an extra few seconds (with the new reduced TTK) due to that bonus while the other medium suits have none. If these new heavies were only to use HMGs, forges, or sidearms, then I could easily buy into the argument that they aren't overpowered as the argument of "well fight them from outside of their optimal and you'll have no trouble" would be true. However, I know full well, with these new bonuses, light weapon heavies, particularly the RR heavies will become even more prevalent than they are now and it will be much worse than currently. TL;DR 1.Heavy resistances to explosives will cause huge problems when using REs and grenades to counter their armor 2. Simple numerics combined with new bonuses means in an equal situation and even a slight disadvantage, light weapon heavies will prevail every single time against scout and medium suits. 3. If heavies only functioned optimally at CQC - lower mid ranges (like they are designed to) none of these issues would even present a problem. 4. I feel that one bonus or the other should have been used for heavies. Either they gain a resistance to certain weapon types based upon race, OR resistance to explosives. Getting both at once I feel leads to a huge discrepancy for other suit users, heavies will reign supreme, particularly light weapon sentinels." It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 320	Posted - 2014.03.14 05:30:00 - [5] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: LEHON Xeon wrote: 2. Simple numerics combined with new bonuses means in an equal situation and even a slight disadvantage, light weapon heavies will prevail every single time against scout and medium suits. I think you're underestimating the scouts. A cloak + NKs will cut a heavy open like a can opener. I'm withholding judgment on this one until 1.8 goes live. I probably should have noted that NKs might have been the possible exception (as I did not take those into account and was only basing my writing off of other weapons). However, given those huge HP reserves they have now, we'll have to wait and see like you said about what's going to happen for scout effectiveness. I'm going to be using a scout suit myself in 1.8, so I'll be able to evaluate the situation as well. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San
LEHON Xeon Ahrendee Mercenaries General Tso's Alliance 321	Posted - 2014.03.14 05:39:00 - [6] - Quote Zahle Undt wrote: LEHON Xeon wrote: 4. I feel that one bonus or the other should have been used for heavies. Either they gain a resistance to certain weapon types based upon race, OR resistance to explosives. Getting both at once I feel leads to a huge discrepancy for other suit users, heavies will reign supreme, particularly light weapon sentinels." I can't agree more. If Sentinels were getting a 15% bonus to a single racial damage type and some sort of bonus to like fitting of heavy weapons or ammo to heavy weapons or reload speed of heavy weapons. We wouldn't be having all these debates. As it is every heavy suit is getting 3 resistances. The bonuses are out of whack with everyone else's and the HMG is the only other automatic weapon in the game not getting damage reduced for TTK. The math isn't lying, as it is right now a heavy noob like me who was never used the HMG popped a standard one on a Dren sentinel last week and it was instant 3 KDR dumbass scrub style. Range, range, range...yeah and at range I'll probably tear your sentinel @ss up with my rail rifle, until you jump your butt in a free LAV you can't kill with 2 AV grenades and Dukes of hazard yourself into my face with 1.5 times the HP and your resistances. EZ mode That's what I keep trying to get across to people. i've run heavy suits before, both HMG and forge guns, so I know how heavies operate. One match just a few weeks ago I also decided to put on a Kaalakota RR onto just a regular heavy with a couple plates. Went into an ambush and fought on a bridge. I was EASILY able to take on three guys at once from a significant distance without ever having to go back behind cover. Even though they all were trying to engage me, my huge HP reserves just allowed me to tank all their bullets while I picked them all off with RR headshots. It just infuriated me more about all these heavy RR scrubs. It's a trap! In this patch we can't repel firepower of that magnitude! - Admiral Ackbar would say in ambush w Nyain San