DUST Search - Vehicle Question: TTK?

Skihids wrote:

Hagintora wrote:

The-Errorist wrote:

Hagintora wrote:

The-Errorist wrote:

TTK to kill vehicles without hardening.

Light Vehicles: 5-7s
Lavs: 5s
Dropships: 7s
Medium Vehicles: 8-10s
RDVs: 9s
Heavy Vehicles: 11-13s
Tanks: 13s

Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles
Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles

Small Turrets: +0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles
Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles
Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles

Also thanks for making this thread.

I would try to stay away from listing specific vehicles (like LAV's) and keep it as general as possible, for now. That way, when they achieve racial parity with vehicles, you can give each race its own TTK without changing the base average.

Also, I'm pretty sure Dropships are Medium Vehicles; at keast, that's what my scanner always shows.

I have a general as well as a slightly more specifit ttk for those types. Also Dropships are indeed light vehicles; the information from the SDE CCP gave us confirms it.

Thanks for the info about Dropships, I would have sworn the were Medium Vehicles.

They show as medium in game. I would go with the in-game information over external in case of a conflict.

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Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 299	Posted - 2014.03.09 10:10:00 - [1] - Quote With all of the threads going on regarding Vehicle, I feel an important topic is being generally ignored: What should the TTK be for Vehicles? So, ignoring Weapon type and size for a moment, what TTK would you give vehicles? Light Vehicles? Medium Vehicles? Heavy Vehicles? Using those numbers as the base, what penalties, or bonuses (if any), would you give to the weapon sizes (ignoring Prox Mines, RE's, and AV 'nades)? Light AV? Heavy AV? Light Turrets? Medium Turrets (assuming they're introduced)? Heavy Turrets? Using these numbers would greatly improve the discussion, as everyone would be on the same page. It also makes it far easier to adjust things like Vehicle HP's, and specific weapon damage, since all would have a target number to shoot for (so to speak). So, what would your answer be to the above questions? EDIT: Let me add, here, that this should be a 1vs 1 scenario. With all things being equal (Militia vs Militia, etc.).
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 299	Posted - 2014.03.09 10:10:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved
Martyr Saboteur Amarrtyrs 227	Posted - 2014.03.09 16:57:00 - [3] - Quote Swarm Launchers: About 12-15 seconds for HAVs, 5-7 seconds for LAVs/DSs, 6-7 seconds for DSs. Forge Guns: HAVs(8-11), LAVs/ADSs(4-5), DSs(5-6) Plasma Cannons: HAVs(11-20( or 2-3 shots)), LAVs/ADSs(5-13(1-2 shots)), DSs (5-13(1-2 shots)) AV grenades should be mostly supplementary, but if you use all of them on a LAV/ADS, it should blow up. Large Railguns: Same as Forgeguns. Large Blasters: HAVs(17-24), LAVs/ADSs(9-12), DSs(10-14) Large Missiles(if every missile lands on target): HAVs(5-8), LAVs/ADSs(2-4), DSs(2-5) Small Turrets are fine. Totally not Fizzer94's forum alt. Definitely just a random dude.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 301	Posted - 2014.03.09 17:37:00 - [4] - Quote OK, good numbers, and thanks for posting. But take it back a step. Without using specific weapons, and all other things being equal, how long should it take to kill an HAV? Or LAV? 10 Seconds? 30? 60? Allow me to correct any vagueness in my OP with an example: Light Vehicles: 10 seconds Medium Vehicles: 15 seconds Heavy Vehicles: 20 seconds Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles The numbers were randomly chosen, this just an example. You can that we now have a base TTK, with each size category modifying that base by a certain percentage. The specific weapon being used, as well as its racial profile, is not important. Again I apologize for not making my intent clearer in the OP.
Draco Cerberus BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 809	Posted - 2014.03.09 17:53:00 - [5] - Quote TTK for vehicles should be as quick as 1x RE or 1x Proximity Explosive. LogiGod earns his pips
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 301	Posted - 2014.03.09 17:58:00 - [6] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: TTK for vehicles should be as quick as 1x RE or 1x Proximity Explosive. OK, so how would you translate that into the other weapon categories? (see my previous post) I have found that if you start at the end result you want, and work your way back from there, it's much easier to figure things out.
ladwar Death by Disassociation Legacy Rising 2001	Posted - 2014.03.09 18:16:00 - [7] - Quote ballistics..... this game has the least. guns with it should have shorter while hitscans have longer and lock-ons the longest. so PC>FG>SL, that is what is wrong with AV inter weapon balance. 12 seconds is about right in a decent hands for all vehicles for this game. and thats taking mobility to DODGE shots as well. Level 2 Forum Warrior, bitter vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth doing reviews in free time, want 1?
Slen Kaleth BlackWater Liquidations INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 110	Posted - 2014.03.09 18:54:00 - [8] - Quote Am I to assume it is on the grounds of 1v1, 1 tanker up against 1 of anything else? Also, is this with hardners, or without? I like where you are with this, it makes a lot of sense. Tanker, how long do you think you should last agianst sustained fire from 1 AVer or tank? AVers and tankers, how long do you think a tank should last against you? I also think for initial discussion not to take into account dodging/mobility and factor that in later.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 303	Posted - 2014.03.09 19:33:00 - [9] - Quote Slen Kaleth wrote: Am I to assume it is on the grounds of 1v1, 1 tanker up against 1 of anything else? Also, is this with hardners, or without? I like where you are with this, it makes a lot of sense. Tanker, how long do you think you should last agianst sustained fire from 1 AVer or tank? AVers and tankers, how long do you think a tank should last against you? I also think for initial discussion not to take into account dodging/mobility and factor that in later. Exactly. No Hardeners, no Skills, no other variables. Just straight TTK. Everything else is a modifier, and modifiers useless until you know what it is they are modifying.
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1849	Posted - 2014.03.09 20:01:00 - [10] - Quote Hagintora wrote: OK, good numbers, and thanks for posting. But take it back a step. Without using specific weapons, and all other things being equal, how long should it take to kill an HAV? Or LAV? 10 Seconds? 30? 60? Allow me to correct any vagueness in my OP with an example: Light Vehicles: 10 seconds Medium Vehicles: 15 seconds Heavy Vehicles: 20 seconds Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles The numbers were randomly chosen, this is just an example. You can see that we now have a base TTK, with each size category modifying that base by a certain percentage. The specific weapon being used, as well as its racial profile, is not important. Again I apologize for not making my intent clearer in the OP. I would be fine with that TTK if it's a base hull, which you stated. 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

Fish'o'war Turinna Immortal Guides 3	Posted - 2014.03.09 20:36:00 - [11] - Quote Personally, I would agree that 15-20s is a good number for shooting a heavy tank that isn't reacting.
The-Errorist 553	Posted - 2014.03.09 22:24:00 - [12] - Quote TTK to kill vehicles without hardening. Light Vehicles: 5-7s Lavs: 5s Dropships: 7s Medium Vehicles: 8-10s RDVs: 9s Heavy Vehicles: 11-13s Tanks: 13s Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: +0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles Also thanks for making this thread.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 308	Posted - 2014.03.10 04:55:00 - [13] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: TTK to kill vehicles without hardening. Light Vehicles: 5-7s Lavs: 5s Dropships: 7s Medium Vehicles: 8-10s RDVs: 9s Heavy Vehicles: 11-13s Tanks: 13s Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: +0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles Also thanks for making this thread. I would try to stay away from listing specific vehicles (like LAV's) and keep it as general as possible, for now. That way, when they achieve racial parity with vehicles, you can give each race its own TTK without changing the base average. Also, I'm pretty sure Dropships are Medium Vehicles; at keast, that's what my scanner always shows.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 308	Posted - 2014.03.10 14:46:00 - [14] - Quote Anybody else have any thoughts in regards to TTK?
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 483	Posted - 2014.03.10 15:35:00 - [15] - Quote roughly 5- 10 seconds Proud Christian Free stuff for the next account you make:)
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD 154	Posted - 2014.03.10 19:01:00 - [16] - Quote The Tank TTK isn't a real issue to me. I have a sufficient AV arsenal. The tank speed is the problem. Slowing them down would justify hardners and reppers, and make hardners and reppers a necessity over damage mods. To answer your question: HAV 20-30 secs LAV 7-12 secs Dropship 15-25 secs Ofcourse weapon type depends. "Anybody order chaos?"
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2167	Posted - 2014.03.10 19:29:00 - [17] - Quote I recently made the discovery, that the different STD rifles are balanced around killing a 1500 HP heavy with approximately a FULL Clip if you have no damage mods or Prof skills. The thing about vehicles is that hardeners end up adding 60% to 150%+ more eHP on a vehicle. There is a lot of difficulty in taking a tank out during this time. There are two ways to beat a tank. 1) Avoid it. It can't kill what it can't see. 2) Understand hardener mechanics. Flux it, and hide for 30 seconds. Then put pressure on as its hardener is ready to run out.
The-Errorist 555	Posted - 2014.03.10 20:03:00 - [18] - Quote Hagintora wrote: The-Errorist wrote: TTK to kill vehicles without hardening. Light Vehicles: 5-7s Lavs: 5s Dropships: 7s Medium Vehicles: 8-10s RDVs: 9s Heavy Vehicles: 11-13s Tanks: 13s Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: +0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles Also thanks for making this thread. I would try to stay away from listing specific vehicles (like LAV's) and keep it as general as possible, for now. That way, when they achieve racial parity with vehicles, you can give each race its own TTK without changing the base average. Also, I'm pretty sure Dropships are Medium Vehicles; at keast, that's what my scanner always shows. I have a general as well as a slightly more specifit ttk for those types. Also Dropships are indeed light vehicles; they have the same icon as a light aerial vehicle and the information from the SDE CCP gave us confirms it.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 308	Posted - 2014.03.11 15:34:00 - [19] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Hagintora wrote: The-Errorist wrote: TTK to kill vehicles without hardening. Light Vehicles: 5-7s Lavs: 5s Dropships: 7s Medium Vehicles: 8-10s RDVs: 9s Heavy Vehicles: 11-13s Tanks: 13s Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: +0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles Also thanks for making this thread. I would try to stay away from listing specific vehicles (like LAV's) and keep it as general as possible, for now. That way, when they achieve racial parity with vehicles, you can give each race its own TTK without changing the base average. Also, I'm pretty sure Dropships are Medium Vehicles; at keast, that's what my scanner always shows. I have a general as well as a slightly more specifit ttk for those types. Also Dropships are indeed light vehicles; the information from the SDE CCP gave us confirms it. Thanks for the info about Dropships, I would have sworn the were Medium Vehicles.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 308	Posted - 2014.03.11 16:20:00 - [20] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: I recently made the discovery, that the different STD rifles are balanced around killing a 1500 HP heavy with approximately a FULL Clip if you have no damage mods or Prof skills. The thing about vehicles is that hardeners end up adding 60% to 150%+ more eHP on a vehicle. There is a lot of difficulty in taking a tank out during this time. There are two ways to beat a tank. 1) Avoid it. It can't kill what it can't see. 2) Understand hardener mechanics. Flux it, and hide for 30 seconds. Then put pressure on as its hardener is ready to run out. Actually the problem with Vehicles is the TTK. Having a +150% to EHP is actually very manageable, given the right starting TTK. Let's say that we want to give HAV's a base TTK of 9 seconds. With the current Militia Swarm Launcher, it would take 3 shots to kill the HAV. 1.4 seconds to lock and fire each shot, and a 5 second reload = 9.2 seconds. Perfect for one Merc to solo said HAV, and without any SP's or Dmg Mods on the SL. But HAV's have the ability to increase their TTK, temporarily, and let's say that in this case it's by 150%. 9 seconds now becomes 22.5 seconds, making it impossible for any one Merc to solo the HAV while using an unskilled, and un-Modded, Militia AV weapon. So Militia HAV's have a way to protect themselves from Militia AV, but Militia AV can still easily take out the Militia HAV with a little skill and patience. The waves of opportunity/vulnerability can absolutely work if you have a good base TTK. The same is true of Infantry. Let's look at the AR, which at STD has a ROF of 12.5, and clip size of 60. If it takes a full clip to kill a STD Heavy Suit, that sets the TTK to at least 4.8 seconds. At Militia level the AR has ROF of 12.5, but a clip size of only 48 = 3.84 seconds TTK for a Militia Heavy Suit assuming the same pattern. Giving the Heavy Suit a 25% increase in survivablity between the two tiers. TTK is vitally important if your going to achieve any kind of balance. You can adjust base damage, ROF, range modifiers and racial weapons profiles so that they are all unique, and as long as they hit that TTK number they should all be balanced to each other. Every Weapon, Suit, and Vehicle can then have its own strength's, weaknesses, and playstyles without being either OP, or UP.

Skihids Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 3022	Posted - 2014.03.11 16:43:00 - [21] - Quote Hagintora wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Hagintora wrote: The-Errorist wrote: TTK to kill vehicles without hardening. Light Vehicles: 5-7s Lavs: 5s Dropships: 7s Medium Vehicles: 8-10s RDVs: 9s Heavy Vehicles: 11-13s Tanks: 13s Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: +0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles Also thanks for making this thread. I would try to stay away from listing specific vehicles (like LAV's) and keep it as general as possible, for now. That way, when they achieve racial parity with vehicles, you can give each race its own TTK without changing the base average. Also, I'm pretty sure Dropships are Medium Vehicles; at keast, that's what my scanner always shows. I have a general as well as a slightly more specifit ttk for those types. Also Dropships are indeed light vehicles; the information from the SDE CCP gave us confirms it. Thanks for the info about Dropships, I would have sworn the were Medium Vehicles. They show as medium in game. I would go with the in-game information over external in case of a conflict.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 308	Posted - 2014.03.11 17:18:00 - [22] - Quote Skihids wrote: Hagintora wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Hagintora wrote: The-Errorist wrote: TTK to kill vehicles without hardening. Light Vehicles: 5-7s Lavs: 5s Dropships: 7s Medium Vehicles: 8-10s RDVs: 9s Heavy Vehicles: 11-13s Tanks: 13s Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: +0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles Also thanks for making this thread. I would try to stay away from listing specific vehicles (like LAV's) and keep it as general as possible, for now. That way, when they achieve racial parity with vehicles, you can give each race its own TTK without changing the base average. Also, I'm pretty sure Dropships are Medium Vehicles; at keast, that's what my scanner always shows. I have a general as well as a slightly more specifit ttk for those types. Also Dropships are indeed light vehicles; the information from the SDE CCP gave us confirms it. Thanks for the info about Dropships, I would have sworn the were Medium Vehicles. They show as medium in game. I would go with the in-game information over external in case of a conflict. Ah! Validation!
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 660	Posted - 2014.03.11 22:23:00 - [23] - Quote Hagintora wrote: OK, good numbers, and thanks for posting. But take it back a step. Without using specific weapons, and all other things being equal, how long should it take to kill an HAV? Or LAV? 10 Seconds? 30? 60? Allow me to correct any vagueness in my OP with an example: Light Vehicles: 10 seconds Medium Vehicles: 15 seconds Heavy Vehicles: 20 seconds Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles The numbers were randomly chosen, this is just an example. You can see that we now have a base TTK, with each size category modifying that base by a certain percentage. The specific weapon being used, as well as its racial profile, is not important. Again I apologize for not making my intent clearer in the OP. oO, I really like what ya said here. Scaling damage so that weapons apply more to different targets. Interesting idea, one that would be useful in balancing AV and Vehicles. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 310	Posted - 2014.03.11 23:14:00 - [24] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Hagintora wrote: OK, good numbers, and thanks for posting. But take it back a step. Without using specific weapons, and all other things being equal, how long should it take to kill an HAV? Or LAV? 10 Seconds? 30? 60? Allow me to correct any vagueness in my OP with an example: Light Vehicles: 10 seconds Medium Vehicles: 15 seconds Heavy Vehicles: 20 seconds Light AV: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Heavy AV: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Small Turrets: 0% to Light Vehicles, +10% to Medium Vehicles, +20% to Heavy Vehicles Medium Turrets: -10% to Light Vehicles, 0% to Medium Vehicles, +10% to Heavy Vehicles Large Turrets: -20% to Light Vehicles, -10% to Medium Vehicles, 0% to Heavy Vehicles The numbers were randomly chosen, this is just an example. You can see that we now have a base TTK, with each size category modifying that base by a certain percentage. The specific weapon being used, as well as its racial profile, is not important. Again I apologize for not making my intent clearer in the OP. oO, I really like what ya said here. Scaling damage so that weapons apply more to different targets. Interesting idea, one that would be useful in balancing AV and Vehicles. Also works rather well with Infantry Weapons.


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