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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.06 21:28:00 -
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Those of you follow the changes coming in 1.8 will already be aware that the scope adjustments to medium frame suits is more limited than we've seen on other suits. More specifically, the slots haven't been adjusted/evened out like they were on Heavy and Light frames. Logibro was kind enough to point out that:
Quote:Unfortunately we didn't get a chance to redo the slots and PG/CPU for all the medium frames in Uprising 1.8. Expect those changes to come in a future update.
Given that, it seems apropos to offer some suggestions/feedback as to a fair way to balance medium frame slots, as we do have the stats on other suits, and the non-slot changes on medium frames. Some discussion has already been given to the state of the Amarr Assault and being shorted a slot/being slanted high - given the shift towards more overy armor tanking with the Amarr suits across the board.
I offered some opinions on medium frame differences in that thread, but since the thread was more specifically aimed at the Amarr Assault, I thought a separate thread for addressing the issues of medium logi frames across the board could be useful. First, the current state of affairs:
The current "slot" allotment for medium frames (basic or assault) is generally:
MLT: 3
STD: 4
ADV: 5
PRO: 7
The logi departs from this, though rather than just H/L slots, it often seems to balanced in context of its equipment slots as well:
Logi Slots (H + L + E):
STD:
A:6 (2/2/2)
C:5 (2/1/2)
G:5 (0/2/3)
M:7 (2/2/3)
ADV:
A:9 (3/3/3)
C:8 (3/2/3)
G:8 (2/3/3)
M:9 (3/3/3)
PRO:
A:10 (3/4/3)
C:12 (5/4/3)
G:12 (3/5/4)
M:12 (4/4/4)
You'll notice things aren't exactly "balanced" here, but there are additional factors worth mentioning. The Amarr Logi receives a sidearm slot, which is unique among logis and purportedly representative of a role as an "assault logi". The difference that makes in practice is debatable. Also of note are adjustments midstream since the original launch of the suits that saw Amarr Logis buffed in various ways (they formerly had fewer slots, and didn't have the sidearm at every level), and Caldari logis nerfed in other ways (this was primarily a fitting nerf, which won't be addressed with respect to slot changes.
There are a few considerations to make with respect to balancing logis. First, what is their role? A logi is not necessarily a medic. Logistics comprises most elements of supply and support in the context of Dust. However, their increased slot allotment provides general flexibility as well and new changes suggest that an EWAR element is also predicted with Gallente Logis getting a scan bonus in the next patch. One statement that can be easily made is that they're the pre-eminent carriers of equipment, with the most slots among any of the roles.
On that note, another consideration for the new update is their place given the stats on scouts, etc. All scouts will now be able to carry two pieces of equipment. This most directly impacts the STD Amarr and Caldari logistics, who receive only 2 slots, thus putting them on par with a scout on the STD level. Adjusting logi slots to be above scouts across the board, if nothing else, seems prudent considering that.
I have three basic proposals for slot changes:
PROPOSAL #1:
Equipment levels are boosted for Amarr/Caldari at STD, Amarr loses sidearm/assault status, Gal/Min get 4 equip slots earlier, slots are evened out across tiers with Amarr/Caldari matching H + L, = on E, and likewise for Gallente/Minmatar.
Logi Slots (H + L + E):
STD:
A:7 (1/3/3)
C:7 (3/1/3)
G:7 (1/3/3)
M:7 (2/2/3)
ADV:
A:9 (2/4/3)
C:9 (4/2/3)
G:9 (2/3/4)
M:9 (3/2/4)
PRO:
A:12 (4/5/3)
C:12 (5/4/3)
G:12 (3/5/4)
M:12 (4/4/4)
Drawbacks: Without basic balancing factors against assaults, the appeal of the assault logi remains here given that the suits generally have more regular slots than a assault. Assaults get 4/5/7. This is a match at STD (but they get equipment as well), but the logis get +1 at ADV (Am/Ca) along with their equipment slots - and +2 or+1 at PRO (Am/Ca=+2, Ga/Mi=+1) along with their equipment. The slot dominance, increased fitting, and equipment flexibility is part of what made slayer logis so popular. This plan doesn't actually "buff" logis so much as evens out the tiers. Many of these (e.g.-PRO Caldari/Minmatar) are actually the current status quo.
PROPOSAL #2:
The Amarr again lose the sidearm, and the equipment levels are leveled at 3 for STD. However, slot progression here changes to reflect something closer to the Assault/Basic 4-5-7. The logis sacrifice 1 slot form their H/L count and their sidearm to get their +2 equipment slots vs. assaults. So, H+L = 3 (as opposed to assault 4) at STD. Like assaults, ADV = +1 slot. The +1 goes to equip slots for Gal/Min, and to H/L for Cal/Ama. Again, like Assaults, PRO offers +2 slots over advanced, which goes towards H/L slots for all suits.
Logi Slots (H + L + E):
STD:
A:6 (1/2/3)
C:6 (2/1/3)
G:6 (1/2/3)
M:6 (2/1/3)
ADV:
A:7 (1/3/3)
C:7 (3/1/3)
G:7 (1/2/4)
M:7 (2/1/4)
PRO:
A:9 (2/4/3)
C:9 (4/2/3)
G:9 (1/4/4)
M:9 (3/2/4)
Notes: This brings the suits more into line with Assault/Medium progression. It's also a nerf for several of the suits. People would probably be annoyed, but it is "balanced" across all the frames.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.06 21:29:00 -
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Reserved.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.09 05:33:00 -
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Dunce Masterson wrote:how about reducing the slots to match that of the basic and assaults and buffing the hp of the logistics suits
Proposal 2 already does something like that. The slots are the same as an assault. The suits lose 1 sidearm and 1 high or low slot to get the initial +2 slots to equipment, and it progresses from there. So, same slots.
Proposal 3 does something similar, except they get 1 extra slot per tier to compensate for the lower hp. They can use that slot either to replace the hp or for something more utility-related (which seems logistics-themed) like a hacking module, scanning module, or what have you.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.09 05:56:00 -
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Martyr Saboteur wrote:Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:Martyr Saboteur wrote:Nope. I won't agree with anything that takes away my sidearm. Perhaps you could make a suggestion for a fair slot allotment across the logis then? Perhaps an argument as to why the Amarr needs a sidearm more than another slot, etc. when it'll suck at anything assault related while it lacks any sort of tanking or combat bonuses? Because the biggest reason people specced I to it was the sidearm. It should keep it.
Suits change. You'll get a respec (presumably). The alternative is a Logistics suit which has the same number of equipment slots as a scout (2 at STD), or that sacrifices slots for a sidearm, which is also a bad deal from a class efficacy standpoint.
I have rank 5 Amarr logistics, and at one point I had Caldari logi to 5 as well. I can understand that a sidearm is nice because I use it, but it suits Amarr racial parity poorly to have a logi that half-asses the logi role in order to be a hybrid of a role we already have (the Assault).
The Amarr logi's bonuses have already been changed. You'll have a bonus to equipment fitting (with fewer slots to get any mileage out of it if nothing changes) and bonuses to droplinks. The passive armor reps? Gone. The bonus to armor reppers? Gone. The sidearm is the ONLY thing that remains of the "assault" logi, and at this point it's just a barrier to us being full-fledged logis.
The sidearm won't make a huge fitting/use difference for the most part, while an extra slot will give us more logi utility. The alternative is being shorted a slot at every rank when compared to other logis. The system now where our slots actually compare favorably to other logis for the most part will likely go away when they reapportion slots. It's straight-up unbalanced at several levels where we just have more total slots, period - that's not going to remain the case. All of the slots on other suits are exactly even. If we stuck to keeping the sidearm, will won't be assault logis, we'll be gimpy logis that are subpar at being both assaults and logis.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.09 14:48:00 -
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Hagintora wrote:Another thing that kind of bothers about the Logi is the CPU/PG count. While it is inarguably neccessary for the Logi to be able to properly fill out its slots, the current dynamic also allows them to forego equipment, hence: Slayer Logi's. I think that in addition to the fitting bonus they recieve for equipment, they should also recieve a fitting penalty to non-equipment. I am, unfortunately, still a little fuzzy on how to implement this without completely gimping the suit.
It would, however, give a clear defining line between Assault and Logi suits.
Logibro says they didn't get around to altering the fitting OR the slots on medium suits. This leads me to believe that the fitting on both is probably going to be squared off. Fitting is already a factor of filling X number of slots comfortably, normally. More slots + more fitting = slayer logis since because of the flexibility afforded.
It is my belief that the alteration to bonuses with respect to role bonuses was an attempt to address part of this (e.g. - 25% to equipment fitting, or -25% to weapon fitting). The fitting on both assaults and logis is likely to be equalized when the balance pass does happen. I actually think something like PROP2 or PROP3 is already likely as well, meaning that the two roles will have closer to the same number of slots to fill with the same amount of PG/CPU, but one will have a bonus to weapons while the other has a bonus to equipment.
This already goes aways towards fixing a slayer logi issue because doing without equipment just makes an assault with fewer H/L slots. For example, in PROP3 (where they get +1 slot to compensate for less speed and hp), at PRO only two of the suits have the same number of H/L slots as an assault (7). However, they also have fewer base hp, less speed, no fitting bonus for weapons, but DO have a fitting bonus for equipment.
So, I'd like to think my PROPs, combined with the role bonus changes, will already address the idea of slayer logis. As to whether you think +1 slot is worth the speed hit or fewer hp? That's a matter for debate, as is whether or not an equipment slot is worth a H/L slot as I've attempted to balance with. Equipment itself isn't JUST a force multiplier of course. A logi can use a repping hive on themselves, carry explosives, etc. That's part of why just a +1 slot to compensate for hp/speed differences can seem warranted to me.
Part of me thinks a move like ZERO equipment on assaults would make logis even more necessary (as logis) as well, with assaults receiving a grenade bonus to compensate. This would also give Basic frames a use as medium suit between assaults and logis that can actually carry 1 equipment.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.09 16:23:00 -
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RKKR wrote:Meh...the game needs High/Mid/Low-slots.
The game already has them, sort of. EVE doesn't have equipment/weapon slots. Our weapon/equipment slots are siphoned-off versions of would-be mid-slots or high-slots.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.09 19:19:00 -
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Draco Cerberus wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:RKKR wrote:Meh...the game needs High/Mid/Low-slots. The game already has them, sort of. EVE doesn't have equipment/weapon slots. Our weapon/equipment slots are siphoned-off versions of would-be mid-slots or high-slots. Eve does have weapon slots, all ships have turret or bay slots for fitting turrets or missile launchers, even mining barges.
While true, those slots in eve are a subset of the aforementioned high slots.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.09 19:30:00 -
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Doshneil Antaro wrote:Slots are not all created equal. With the TTK adjustment, sidearms are going to be a huge advantage to players. Fitting a great combo that plays with the other weaknesses is going to matter. Not having a sidearm, means you will be a sitting duck as you have to reload. This is a FPS, were the goal is, no matter your specialty is to kill the other team. Having a combo of light + sidearm is greater than 4 equipment. Even if the logi speed and hp were buffed above the assault, the assaults would be able to out tank and speed a logi if he had more slots than them. Not to mention, as we seen with the scout, with to few H/L slots (especialy with only 1 H or L slot) takes away any flexibility in fitting selections.
Equal H/L is the way to balance them. In 1.8, with the lack of ways to add damage and having a sidearm will render logi slayers useless. No need to nerf them into non existence. Considering they are just the same suit just slightly modified, they should be equal in most stats except for speed.
I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting.
1) You suggest that sidearms are a huge advantage (though the sitting duck/reloading statement only makes sense if the enemy would've been in range of a possible sidearm or you can't run/strafe to cover, and/or you're by yourself)
2) This is also a team-game, where rather than just being a pure deathmatch, we're supposed to have roles that emphasize support. This gives logis an opportunity to play role involving supply, scanning, repping, etc. How many people will your team kill when they're a) dead, or b) out of ammo? What if Assaults also lost their equipment slot?
3) Having equal slots and a bunch of equipment in exchange for a sidearm is not an equal trade. In at least one case, the proposal I offered is within a slot or so of Assaults. That's enough. You're don't give a class 3-4 equipment slots for a sidearm, that's idiotic. Equipment can serve as mobile rep/supply, weapons, scanning, and more.
4) I've tried to avoid too few slots. The difference in most cases is about a slot from assaults. If you think this is too much, I'd remind you that the Amarr Assault already has existed with one fewer slot than other assaults.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.09 22:59:00 -
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Dehlia Metii wrote:Is the take away supposed to be the total number of slots, or are you especially attached to the specific arrangement you've given them at the various levels?
Right, I was throwing out potential slot allocations, but having the races even and the math separating them from the assaults was the key part of the proposals.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.10 04:15:00 -
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Dehlia Metii wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Dehlia Metii wrote:Is the take away supposed to be the total number of slots, or are you especially attached to the specific arrangement you've given them at the various levels? Right, I was throwing out potential slot allocations, but having the races even and the math separating them from the assaults was the key part of the proposals. So, you could remove those 4th equipment slots on the Minmatar/Gallente Logi to give them more slots?
You "could". 
I suppose I was attempting to preserve the pre-existing scheme whereby they had made the Gallente and Minmatar the more "team-player" or "support-focused" logis. Ergo, they carry more gear, and the more "selfish" races or whatever carry slightly less. Something like that? I'm not sure exactly what their thinking was, but it seemed to be along those lines.
There's no reason you couldn't equalize the slots, but I would imagine towards 4 instead of 3 would be the more "logistics" focused sort of decision with respect to design.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.10 11:48:00 -
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Denn Maell wrote:
I had always thought the Gallente could stand to loose the 4th equipment slot at pro to. Emphasize the Minmatar as the 'swiss army knife of logis' and the pre 1.8 gallante bonus meant they could bring in the higher-tier goods easier.
But now, with the bonus changes coming I can't say whether or not that change would be a good idea. Of course, as a Gal Logi I would rather loose an extra high slot than one of my lows (I'll need the scan range amps to help with my active-scanner role as team Scanner-bunny).
The various range/damp/precision amps should only impact your passive scanning, as far as I know. If you're using an actual scanner, I don't think it matter outside of the moments when you're not using it.
Do you think going without the 4th slot is common sentiment for Gallente logis? I figured it was sensible to keep it at "half the races with 4 slots, half with 3" because that represents a kind of balance. If anything, I'd be more likely to take everyone to 4 at PRO, since it's a more logi-esque sort of move. It hadn't occurred to me that any Gallente logis might not want the 4 slots. Considering how frequently the Active scanner became a go-to tool, it seemed like you're always want one more equipment slot.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.10 12:58:00 -
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Meee One wrote:Was expecting actual balance.
Found another "nerf logis" thread started by an assault.
Perhaps you missed the part where I pointed out that I have Amarr Logi to 5.
Making the slots even IS balance. If you want more slots than another role, then you're asking for an edge, not balance.
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Posted - 2014.03.10 13:15:00 -
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Luk Manag wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:[quote=Hagintora]Another thing that kind of bothers about the Logi is the CPU/PG count. While it is inarguably neccessary for the Logi to be able to properly fill out its slots, the current dynamic also allows them to forego equipment, hence: Slayer Logi'...
Part of me thinks a move like ZERO equipment on assaults would make logis even more necessary (as logis) as well, with assaults receiving a grenade bonus to compensate. This would also give Basic frames a use as medium suit between assaults and logis that can actually carry 1 equipment.
No way on an Assault equipment slot reduction! We already have to avoid running heavies because the nanite injector is too important when your 200k isk logi friends fall. Right now the speed and equipment slot is the only thing keeping everyone from running slayer logis.
It was an idea, but dropping a slot from assaults wasn't an actual part of any of my proposals. I think Basic Suits would need to have some sort of useful bonus before people would consider them in lieu of an assault... even if they had an equipment slot that Assaults lacked.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.10 19:26:00 -
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I-Shayz-I wrote:I just want the logistics suits to make sense as they get better.
The minmatar is 2/2, 3/3, 4/4. That makes sense.
The Caldari is 2/1, 3/2, 5/4...why? You gain 4 extra module slots at proto, which makes the advanced worthless.
Oh and what is with the standard gallente logi going from 0/2 to 2/3? The standard suit is worthless.
Assaults have had a smoother progression historically. 4-5-7 doesn't have steep jumps. The logis seem to have some things balanced at different times than others, and there's just a sense of randomness in builds. The Minmatar keeps a progression like that in PROP1, though I think I moved a slot from low to 4th equipment at ADV.
I was actually curious how many people that favored the more slot-heavy logis would like those sorts of setups, since it is a lot more slots than assaults. If PROP1 was the favored choice (by CCP), then it would suggest Assaults might need some tweaking as well.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.11 06:18:00 -
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Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:What happens if they boost Assault slots?
I tied them to Assault slots mathematically (on 2 and 3), so a shift in assault slots would create a corresponding shift upwards.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.18 10:59:00 -
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Dehlia Metii wrote:The slots are the same in the dev blog.
Yes, I mentioned in the first post I think that Logibro said they didn't get around to the medium slot changes in 1.8. That's why I was making suggestions (in the vein of the feedback we were giving prior to 1.8).
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.18 19:26:00 -
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Ku Shala wrote:maybe we should see how the assaults and scouts excell in 1.8 before we try and make a balance with simple slot math, cpu and pg is the main balance required for the logistics medium frames, as well as ixing basic armour plate cost..
nerf logis more=the troll logi 1 milita BPO needle and 2 compact nanohives
I think there might be a large influx of scouts and heavies in 1.8, since it's new content. Changes to medium suits are a foregone conclusion though (they said as much by saying they didn't have time to do it, etc.). Note that they actually said slots AND fitting, so both will be changed at the same time. I only tackled slots here.
The slot allotment is a large part of what makes the slayer-logi phenomenon. Not all of my proposals called for "nerfing" the logis anyhow.
However, I think either way, the assaults need to be balanced in context of the logis/other classes as well.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.18 20:41:00 -
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Skihids wrote:As an equipment based Logi I want to see the ADV suit of each race able to carry proto equipment and a decent eHP. I don't care so much about dealing damage as I'd rather avoid it if possible.
I've currently got Minmitar Logi 5 but I never ever run the proto suit due to its outrageous expense when fitted with four pieces of proto equipment. Lose just one of those suits and kiss your profit goodbye.
I'll need Caldari Logistics for hive deployment, and that huge jump in slots between ADV and Proto bothers me. I don't want to have to run proto to make a survivable fit.
This is an interesting point. While not an issue of "field strength", the cost of logis means that loss of a suit is a huge hit, especially with all PRO equipment and filling up more slots than an assault has.
How do you balance the cost of all the extra slots (H/L, and equipment) with the fact that having extra slots can provide a competitive advantage in combat as well? In that vein, schemes where the logi is more defense/equipment oriented but can't project the same combat power make sense. I think they already "tried" to do that, but the poor TTK and powerful rifles meant that a suit that was overly defense focus was clearly better than something like an assault. Being able to survive longer was enough to be = logi dominance.
This is an issue with equipment as well, since hives can provide reps and ammo, giving logis even more staying power.
The shift in the recent bonuses were away from defense bonus (all logis lost reps) and towards equipment. I assume the slot changes will be partially aimed at this too. However, if they wanted to limit the slot count overall (the flexibility element), then it seems like they may have needed to adjust to base stats to make them more defense-focused at the same time.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2014.03.19 05:03:00 -
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Meee One wrote:You are a fool and an imbecile who uses walls of text for a simple response to give off the image of intelligence. And you are apparently blind as well. This is what logi slots are for: http://dust514.com/news/2014/03/equipment-uprising-1.8/The first paragraph above the active scanner stats picture reads... dev blog wrote:
The intent here is to reward specialization and create room for future modules that will enhance the performance of equipment, allowing specialists to further customize their fits in a way that allows them to excel at a specific function.
Logis will need those slots you so obviously desire to strip them of for the future equipment enhancement modules. So,you can take your slot envy and shove it.
Why don't you tell me how you really feel?
I like how the quote you took from the dev blog says nothing about them needing more slots than other suits. It just says that the bonuses are intended to reward specialization, and they're planning to make modules that further do so. Logis could fit modules to modify equipment with fewer slots, just as they can choose to use slots for different things now. I might add on the point of "slot envy" that I run a proto logistics suit.
Did you see Proposal 1, you know the one where their slots stay numerous or increase? It's cool if you're illiterate, blind, have a short attention span, or are in some other way mentally deficient; I wouldn't go around assuming other people have the same issues as you though.
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Posted - 2014.03.19 10:04:00 -
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Meee One wrote:Oh my,an assault user specced into a logi suit and runs it like an assault suit? What a suprise!  How about you stop running your suit like a logihoe,and start using it like a logibro,then you'll see how ******** your ideas really are. No true logibro would ever desire to gimp a fellow logi (regardless of race) because true logibros know how hard it is to be one. You're an assault user that specced into logis out of jealously and spite,and not to support. So use as many big sounding words you want true logibros know you're a fool and an imbecile.
That's a nice "No True Scotsman" fallacy you pulled out there.
Words come in various lengths; I'm not sure what a "big sounding" word would be. Your wild speculation about my motives/playstyle notwithstanding, you're still ignoring the fact that the very first of my slot proposals doesn't reduce slots at all. If you read the proposals in order, then you'd find it was the first one.
I wonder if it looks "foolish" or "imbecilic" to not be able to read?
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Posted - 2014.03.19 10:13:00 -
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Lynn Beck wrote:I feel the logis shouldn't be trying to mimic the assaults (4/2 slot layout at proto) as they rely more on support slots/having more evened slot layouts, it's actually one of the reasons i chose Minmatar in uprising, as you had your shield midframe, then your armor medframe, galassault i imagine having 2/5 slot layout, with the logi having 3/4.
Caldari would go 4/3 on logi, 5/2 on assault, minmatar being 4/3 assault and 3/4 logi, while amarr has 1/5(they still have lower slots right?) and 2/4 or 3/3 logi.
Mostly, the split is about the numbers of H + L vs. E at each level. There's a large subjective element to what constitutes a decent/appropriate selection of slots for the various races.
As for the Amarr having fewer slots: that came up indirectly in the Assault thread linked in the OP. Since CCP equalized the slots between races on the Sentinel/Commando/Scout in 1.8, it's believed that the slots will probably equalized in the forthcoming changes to medium frames later. How and in what way the medium suit slots may chance is more or less the topic at hand here. If the Amarr Logi specifically keeps the sidearm, then I imagine there'd still be a slot difference elsewhere to compensate for that though.
On some of the new suit layouts, you may have also notices that they the slot layouts don't really vary. Amarr = Gallente in some cases, for example. It's hard to say if they're going to do the same thing here. Honestly, if they just "didn't have time" for their medium slot changes, then the nature of the changes may already be set. In that case, this topic (and others like it) will have about as much impact as all our feedback did on 1.8.
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