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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1245
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Posted - 2014.03.06 22:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
My concern is not for the changes to the game per se but how much it has been tested through by CCP for gameplay. This is usually where a lot of the problems occur because what may look good on paper may not be so great when the boots hit the ground.
- Are scouts going to be effective with the lower TTK? This is a class that relies on speed and surprise rather than EHP tank. Will they be able to use this to their advantage or will it just give bricks the chance to turn round and shred them?
- With no mention to an HMG nerf, will heavies be a little too powerful in CQC spots (especially when paired with a min logi)?
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1248
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Posted - 2014.03.10 13:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think swarm and av damage is fine if they just fixed the ability for tanks to run rotating hardeners or dual reps constantly. Vehicles desperately need capacitors as this would reduce the use of these tactics and really give a 'window of opportunity' that infantry was supposed to get.
Modifying straight damage will never truly balance vehicles and infantry as it will always lean one way or the other.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1249
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Posted - 2014.03.10 15:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:I think swarm and av damage is fine if they just fixed the ability for tanks to run rotating hardeners or dual reps constantly. Vehicles desperately need capacitors as this would reduce the use of these tactics and really give a 'window of opportunity' that infantry was supposed to get.
Modifying straight damage will never truly balance vehicles and infantry as it will always lean one way or the other. I think you are onto the meat of the issue. We all want vehicles to be a value add to the game and provide some serious tactical scenarios for players. To that end i think there are couple points we can all agree on: 1) HAVs should reflect the ISK risk vs reward structure. Most of us have non-PC quality drop suits that easily cost more than many of the HAVs running around. 2) Actually provide the described "waves of opportunity". HAVs shouldn't be able to run hardeners near constantly or rep / harden through an Orbital Strike. As Canari noted, the damage is probably fine, but there is no real opportunity to use the existing AV weapons between hardener cycles, speed of HAVs / Dropships, and the current Swarm Lock range, lock time, and slow missile speed. High end forges are still viable but situational and requires a more significant investment of SP and ISK (weapon and suit) whereas the infamous militia tank requires none of that.
Agreed... The premise that CCP is going for with HAVs is good, they just need to work on he execution more. I like the idea of them being used for 'pushes' against enemy but that isnt the case right now. They can just sit and 'tank' most damage thrown at them without ever needing to withdraw. When they do, they are fast enough that infantry cannot take advantage of it.
I do not think that swarms need a damage buff but I would be happy with one of the following:
- large clip size
- more range
- faster missiles
Honestly, I would lean more towards faster missiles as that would give them some use against dropships that can easily outrun them right now. As stated, swarms are extremely niche as they have no damage against infantry so they need to have some all around punch versus vehicles. If they get too powerful damage wise though, then they can be OP and imbalanced against either tanks or dropships and we are back to making one group happy over the other.
A weapon's bonus should be based on its use.
The Forge is a LOS weapon that is going to be facing vehicles when they are probably at their most powerful. It should have the ability to make them withdraw through direct damage without being powerful enough to instapop a standard tank in 2-3 shots
The Swarm is a tracking weapon that is going to be about taking advantage of vehicles that are withdrawing and at their weakest. It should be used for chasing down vehicles so its focus should be on range and/or speed rather than pure damage.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1250
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Posted - 2014.03.12 01:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:I'm not on the list of candidates in this forum, but even so; but this seemed a good place to ask this question. You all mention vehicles and AV. Many complain about swarms. How much damage do swarms do now? and what change to damage would you make if any?
I pretty much posted my thoughts on swarm changes above. I dont think they should have a damage buff because of their functionality. I honestly think that what they need is a boost to flight time. They should not be more effective killers due to dps but they should be effective to drive away vehicles or make them pay if they are out in the open too long.
The issue isnt so much with AV as it is with vehicle modules. Ive seen ADS' tank proto swarms quite easily and, if they take enough damage, simply fly away because they can outrun the missiles.
Its all a very tricky subject because you have players that are career vehicle users due to how skill intensive it is. This presents the issue that you have something that is a very effective killer in terms of tanks and dropships that cannot simply rule the battlefield but still has to be a viable career path for players. The main issue is when it comes to pub matches, you are never guaranteed that there will be an effective balance of vehicles on both sides or dedicated AV to deal with it. This is especially true in Ambush where there is very little chance to swap out suits at a depot. In an ideal world, you would have vehicles facing off against other vehicles.
Sadly, there is no quick fix to the situation that would not require a large overhaul to the game. Some options would be:
- Large player counts in matches to justify dedicated AV teams
- A 'mobile depot' type of equipment or vehicle module that would not give ammo but allow for a limited number of times players could swap out their suits
- More complex maps that are more similar to the Research Outpost where there are areas of cover against vehciles
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1256
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Posted - 2014.03.14 00:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:We have to tread carefully here Fox. I pulled my last swarm video today from you tube after reading this thread so i can make the swarm issues and vehicle balance clearer, as there seems to be a real need for knowledge on this topic. I'll repost the video tomorrow. But there seems to be almost no knowledge about swarms and the 55% efficiency against dropships and how this really makes balancing vehicles extremely tricky. There also seems to be some slight of hand going on when we get to armour after going through the shields. This detail makes many suggestions on swarm balance of no use if this is not considered. I modeled your 250 per missile 1.8 damage mod x3 engagement. This is the Incubus (top end) result. Looks like a 7 shot kill. But that based on a bug we have now. Ill remodel tomorrow to see how it works out if the bug is fixed The beige bar on the 3D graph is the shots to kill. When it hits the axis the ADS is dead. When the red hits the axis, the swarmer is dead.
I cannot see the wording on that image Judge, even when I try to zoom in. I just know, first hand, that it is extremely hard to kill or even deter an ADS with swarms. And this is coming from someone who is proto with prof 3 and 2 complex damage on the suit. I have hit a volley dead on and only saw about a 10% drop in shields. When I took fire from the missile turret, I had to play peek-a-boo with the ship which only gave more time for the harders to cool down. My suit would easily be 2-3 shotted from the ship so there was almost no chance for an engagement where I could drive it away, let alone kill it. That also doesnt take into account that, should I have started making a dent, it could easily have disengaged and bugged out with my swarms not being able to keep up.
I am an amateur militia dropship pilot and, even with no skills into it, the only thing I really fear is a railgun or a good forge gunner.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1262
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Posted - 2014.03.15 15:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Canari Elphus wrote:...... I just know, first hand...... I have hit a volley dead on and only saw about a 10% drop in shields..... "I Just know" and "about" are terms we do not, and must not, use when talking balance.
By no means was I using what I said as a basis for balance. It was merely a subjective remark based on what I have seen in game. I would hope that CCP has the actual game data to analyze actual engagements to see what happens during the course of a fight with infantry versus dropships. From my experience with swarms mainly and dropships lightly, I would say that rails and forges are a much bigger threat to dropships than swarms.
Swarms are the only 'AV' weapon that has no impact against infantry (aside from av grenades) and yet they are the least preferred to engage vehicles.
Personally, I think they need to be completely rethought out as a weapon. It would almost be cool to have them be like a Javelin type setup (as said before) that is carried by a logi but requires two people to use it..
Logi drops 'equipment' ... takes X amount of seconds to setup using the interact button. One merc paints the target while the other fires the missile. The painter has to keep on target the entire time for the missile to hit but, when it does, it deals massive damage. When the missile is fired, the pilot (HAV or DS) gets a warning pop up. That gives them x amount of seconds depending on the missiles flight time. If the pilot can break the LOS of the painter, the missile will fly straight based on the last known coordinates.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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