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Waruiko DUST
G I A N T
General Tso's Alliance
150
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Posted - 2014.02.20 19:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been kicking this around in my head for a while now and I can't come to any other conclusion except that having proto guns deal extra damage base isn't the way to go here. Proto weapons should obviously be better in some fashion but it doesn't need to be raw damage that they shine in. Here is my general flow of thought on the subject.
SELECTING A PROTO GUN SHOULD BE A MORE TACTICAL CHOICE
Currently what level of gun you use is only a minor tactical decision. This is because with damage being such a big part of the game there is no situation where 'hit it harder' is not a good option. There is some choice involved with the fitting being so high that you need to make a choice there, but even then the game's focus on damage presses the player into fitting the best gun they can where ever possible. I'd go so far as to say that if ISK were not limiting players then only dedicated logi running PRO equipment would regularly run STD and ADV guns.
Some guns having a damage bonus makes sense and those shouldn't change. The forge gun and the sniper rifle both come to mind here. That said there are some guns that could get different bonuses that still make using them justifiable, but don't offer such blanket utility in all situations.
As an example during this heavy event lets look at the two heavy weapons we have right now the FG and the HGM. The FG is a good example of a gun that should keep its current bonus. It works well with the damage bonus because simply put the damage bonus doesn't help it against infantry much, and it isn't big enough to drastically change its use as an AV weapon against anything but tanks. LAVs and DSs have so little health that the 10% extra damage isn't going to change the number of shots you need to kill them drastically with their current incarnations. This might change in the future but for now it stands. Tanks are their own issue deserving a different thread. The HMG however Suffers from the issue of getting both too much and too little from its damage bonus. The HMG might work better with, for example, a bonus to clip size rather then damage providing staying power and tactical options that the normal HMG doesn't have. For example an HMG with a 10 or 20 percent deeper magazine can provide much longer and useful covering fire or suppression fire then the current HMG. If you want to go another way saying that damage is the point of the weapon and should still be focused on you could give it a slightly tighter spread and further optimal at higher levels. That would let it project damage further without actually increasing its raw damage output. Obviously any changes would need some serious thought but this is the direction I go in when I think about the problems with the damage bonus.
PART OF THE PROBLEM IS DAMAGE MODS, SLOT LAYOUT AND PROFICIENCY
I don't want to broach a fix for this right now because these are complex issues and tough too much of the game to have a quick fix. That said there is a problem with overstocking damage mods and their synergy with both levels in proficiency and with the higher base damage from the PRO guns. This isn't so big a problem right now with heavy weapons, but with the new racial heavies there will be suits with more high slots to cram damage mods into. A PRO HMG with full prof and 3 complex damage mods deals 28.778051 damage a round. For comparison the base HMG deals 18 damage. Again this whole mess is its own problem and I don't think it has a clean easy solution, but it does need mentioning and I do think changing the damage bonus on some guns will mitigate the issue some.
If we want the game to get better we all need to pitch in on feedback and ideas so what are your guy's thoughts on the subject? I'm sure theres stuff I'm missing and I'm curious about other people's opinions on the idea as a whole, or maybe in regards to their specific favored gun.
If blood and sweat don't teach them perhaps time will
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Piercing Serenity
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
565
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Posted - 2014.02.20 19:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Waruiko DUST wrote:I've been kicking this around in my head for a while now and I can't come to any other conclusion except that having proto guns deal extra damage base isn't the way to go here. Proto weapons should obviously be better in some fashion but it doesn't need to be raw damage that they shine in. Here is my general flow of thought on the subject.
SELECTING A PROTO GUN SHOULD BE A MORE TACTICAL CHOICE
Currently what level of gun you use is only a minor tactical decision. This is because with damage being such a big part of the game there is no situation where 'hit it harder' is not a good option. There is some choice involved with the fitting being so high that you need to make a choice there, but even then the game's focus on damage presses the player into fitting the best gun they can where ever possible. I'd go so far as to say that if ISK were not limiting players then only dedicated logi running PRO equipment would regularly run STD and ADV guns.
Some guns having a damage bonus makes sense and those shouldn't change. The forge gun and the sniper rifle both come to mind here. That said there are some guns that could get different bonuses that still make using them justifiable, but don't offer such blanket utility in all situations.
As an example during this heavy event lets look at the two heavy weapons we have right now the FG and the HGM. The FG is a good example of a gun that should keep its current bonus. It works well with the damage bonus because simply put the damage bonus doesn't help it against infantry much, and it isn't big enough to drastically change its use as an AV weapon against anything but tanks. LAVs and DSs have so little health that the 10% extra damage isn't going to change the number of shots you need to kill them drastically with their current incarnations. This might change in the future but for now it stands. Tanks are their own issue deserving a different thread. The HMG however Suffers from the issue of getting both too much and too little from its damage bonus. The HMG might work better with, for example, a bonus to clip size rather then damage providing staying power and tactical options that the normal HMG doesn't have. For example an HMG with a 10 or 20 percent deeper magazine can provide much longer and useful covering fire or suppression fire then the current HMG. If you want to go another way saying that damage is the point of the weapon and should still be focused on you could give it a slightly tighter spread and further optimal at higher levels. That would let it project damage further without actually increasing its raw damage output. Obviously any changes would need some serious thought but this is the direction I go in when I think about the problems with the damage bonus.
PART OF THE PROBLEM IS DAMAGE MODS, SLOT LAYOUT AND PROFICIENCY
I don't want to broach a fix for this right now because these are complex issues and tough too much of the game to have a quick fix. That said there is a problem with overstocking damage mods and their synergy with both levels in proficiency and with the higher base damage from the PRO guns. This isn't so big a problem right now with heavy weapons, but with the new racial heavies there will be suits with more high slots to cram damage mods into. A PRO HMG with full prof and 3 complex damage mods deals 28.778051 damage a round. For comparison the base HMG deals 18 damage. Again this whole mess is its own problem and I don't think it has a clean easy solution, but it does need mentioning and I do think changing the damage bonus on some guns will mitigate the issue some.
If we want the game to get better we all need to pitch in on feedback and ideas so what are your guy's thoughts on the subject? I'm sure theres stuff I'm missing and I'm curious about other people's opinions on the idea as a whole, or maybe in regards to their specific favored gun.
Well reasoned, valid suggestions. I like the idea of tiers giving some non-damage related bonus that makes them better then the previous tier. +1
DUST 514 BETA VET
16.2M Lifetime SP
SH4T --> PFBHz --> PFB --> SH4T --> Fatal
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Hagintora
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
229
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Posted - 2014.02.20 21:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well it seems that in 1.8, the Proficiency Skill will only be giving Damage bonus by type (shields or armor), so you could do the same thing with the damage increase by Tier, as well as with Damage Mods. So you would have Damage Mods that increase damage to shields, and Mods that increase damage to armor, while decreasing damage done to the opposing type. So a Complex Shield Damage Mod would increase damage to shields by 10%, but decrease damage to armor by 10%. I haven't actually run these numbers yet so this is still open for debate.
I think, in regards to your other ideas about weapons, that this doesn't fix bringing the "best gun possible" dynamic that you've chosen to address. Players will still be equipping the higher Tier weapons to receive those bonuses, because reducing hipfire spread, or kick, allows players to put more rounds on target, thereby increasing damage output. Why would I equip a lower Tier weapon if I'm going to be doing more damage at higher Tiers? It's still not a tactical decision because it's still based entirely off of raw damage.
If you want players to be more tactical when outfitting their Mercs, then come up with more tactical things that they can do on the battlefield. Right now we have killing (a mainstay of any FPS game), a little bit of Hacking and E-war (which I feel needs to expanded on), on transport (in regards to vehicles). Come up with more things other than those, and you'll find more players equipping their Mercs to fit those roles. |
Waruiko DUST
G I A N T
General Tso's Alliance
152
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 22:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yes some of the ways you could improve a gun may improve its damage output at some of its range but that wouldn't universally up its damage output. I'll be pulling all these figures out of thin air for the sake of making the example easy to understand as I didn't make myself clear enough before. If a shot gun normally has a tight enough spread that all pellets hit a target if the reticle is centered on the target at 3 meters on a basic SG then under the current system then a PRO SG would deal 110% damage at the same 3 meters. If however the SG bonus for using PRO and ADV versions was spread density rather then raw damage then the PRO SG would deal the exact same damage at 3 meters, but it would also deal the full damage out to say 5 meters as well. under that system the PRO is still 'better' as it needs to be, but the player could apply the weapon from further away. This provide greater thought in selecting your load out. For example under the 'spread' system for the SG a commando in a city socket might chose a shotgun assault rail rifle load out. Here it makes sense for a prototype SG to be used even at the expense of the ARR because the commando, being a heavy variant, can't move to close distance as easy. If the suit were a scout though closing and sneaking up on people wouldn't be a problem and while the tighter spread might be useful the scout is now encouraged to ask if maybe they want to fit a STD SG to free up PG and CPU for a better side arm like the breach scrambler pistol or the new rail pistol coming out. The scout may still chose to go for the better SG, but they aren't as pressured to use it. The tighter spread would compensate for the player not being fast enough to make use of the suits speed and the player not being a accurate with their SG. The SG being PRO could still make a big difference for the player and their performance, but if they player is good enough they aren't FORCED to use PRO gear to be competitive unless they want to.
Other benefits will that you can get the full feel of a weapon at only the first level and incoming players of high player skill will be able to compete much sooner and at lower SP then they currently can because they likely only need a level or two of their chosen weapon to be seriously dangerous and can switch weapon systems with less trouble rather then getting locked into the flavor of the month and leaving when their specialty gets rebalanced.
Did I make myself clearer?
If blood and sweat don't teach them perhaps time will
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
751
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Posted - 2014.02.21 23:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
I would rather have tiericide, and the base weapon skill unlocks the different variations. Level one unlocks the base model, level 3 unlocks the breach variant, and 5 unlocks the assault variant. Not sure what this would do for the rifles though.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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Hagintora
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
235
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Posted - 2014.02.22 01:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
I understood what you were saying, and what it is you're trying to accomplish, and I applaud it, but I just don't think it will provide the variety that you're looing for.
Even in the example that you gave with the Shotgun/Commando'/Scout scenario, you still have the issue of people choosing higher Tier weapons because they are better overall. The Commando choosing a PRO Shotgun, or the Scout choosing a higher Tier sidearm, it's still the essentially the same dynamic that we have right now. There are many Scouts who choose to bring PRO sidearms to the fight, while only using STD, or even Militia Primaries. Many Medium Suits choose to do the opposite.
If you level up the Proficiency Skill to 5, you will have the equivalent of a PRO weapon with an Enhanced Damage Mod when using a STD, or Militia weapon, thereby allowing you to use higher Tier gear elsewhere on your build. But people still run ADV and PRO weapons anyway. Why? Because they want those bonuses. It doesn't matter if it's a bonus to damage, range, dispersion, people will still use it because it is a better weapon. Even if the bonus isn't to damage directly you're still increasing the raw damage output of the weapon. More rounds ON target, means more damage TO target.
The only way you're going to get people to choose to use lower Tier weapons, is by giving them something else they want more. Some role other than "slayer" that they will be trying to perform during a match. Logi's (the ones that actually try to play Logi and not Assault), might choose to bring in lower Tier weapons because they're focusing on higher Tier equipment instead. Scouts might do the same thing if they're focus is on E-war or Hacking. But for the other three, killing is really about the only thing that they bring to the table. So, better weapon = more kills = better at performing chosen role (slayer). |
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