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Ankbar Latrommi
S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance
73
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't know if I'll get an Extra-Credit level response here, but to whom should developers balance toward? The FPS-fanatic, with a controller-shaped imprint in his hand and has a bad day when his kdr goes below 12.4? The FPS-moderate? The FPS-noob?
I get the feeling that all stat issues are judged on the fps pro scale. But does that really matter? A pro vs a pro will be a challenge, a mid-ranged player vs a mid-ranged player will be a challenge, a pro vs a weak fps player will be a stop, etc., etc.. If something was OP, I would think it would be so badly stated that players are effectively a 'rank' higher than they really are. But I don't think I'm taking out any pros with my rail rifle solo, just as an example. (Though without Eve-O-styled killmails it's hard for me to know for sure.)
Maybe it's just my experience, but less than half the "OP!" cries I hear make any sense to me.
Edit: "to whom" may be wrong. Grammar correction in 5...4...3...
Reiner Knizia-"When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning."
Eve> FPS
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
9097
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Posted - 2014.02.07 22:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
This isn't really a case of 'who' the developers should balance toward. It's a case of everything needing its own role.
Hypothetically, if a weapon was similar to another weapon in most respects except it outperforms it in x attribute with no disadvantage compared to the other, people are going to use the advantaged weapon.
So it is in Dust. A number of weapons are simply better than others - consider the rifle class, and specifically the CR and AR. Let's not start a flame war, but let's have a quick comparison:
The combat rifle and assault rifle do similar damage per bullet, with the assault rifle managing slightly more. The combat rifle has a significant rate of fire advantage over the assault rifle. The combat rifle has a range advantage over the assault rifle. The combat rifle and assault rifle have a similar clip size.
Essentially, in this case, the CR outperforms the AR. As a result, people use the CR over the AR and its role is overshadowed. This is not a good thing. Ideally, every weapon should be balanced so that it has its own role in which it shines. It's fine to be versatile, but not to outperform other weapons in their niche as well as being versatile.
Looking on from the rifle class, this is the reason rifles are the most prevalent weapon on the battlefield. They have versatility and the power to beat other weapons in their niche roles. As a result, they become much more widely used.
It's not a case of balancing towards people, it's a case of balancing so that everything can co-exist and be useful.
ZATARA CARRIES US ALL
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
MAG Raven
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
730
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Posted - 2014.02.08 00:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:This isn't really a case of 'who' the developers should balance toward. It's a case of everything needing its own role.
Hypothetically, if a weapon was similar to another weapon in most respects except it outperforms it in x attribute with no disadvantage compared to the other, people are going to use the advantaged weapon.
So it is in Dust. A number of weapons are simply better than others - consider the rifle class, and specifically the CR and AR. Let's not start a flame war, but let's have a quick comparison:
The combat rifle and assault rifle do similar damage per bullet, with the assault rifle managing slightly more. The combat rifle has a significant rate of fire advantage over the assault rifle. The combat rifle has a range advantage over the assault rifle. The combat rifle and assault rifle have a similar clip size.
Essentially, in this case, the CR outperforms the AR. As a result, people use the CR over the AR and its role is overshadowed. This is not a good thing. Ideally, every weapon should be balanced so that it has its own role in which it shines. It's fine to be versatile, but not to outperform other weapons in their niche as well as being versatile.
Looking on from the rifle class, this is the reason rifles are the most prevalent weapon on the battlefield. They have versatility and the power to beat other weapons in their niche roles. As a result, they become much more widely used.
It's not a case of balancing towards people, it's a case of balancing so that everything can co-exist and be useful.
Arkena,
I see where you coming from and respect the concept and have a question back to you in a similar vein as the OP.
Lots of folks complain about the DPS of the RR vs the AR when complaining about their relative ranges. In the long range game the RR absolutely applies it's max DPS (assuming perfect aim and even if both players see each other at same time) with minimum ability for the AR to retaliate, however, in shorter range the .25 sec reaction time significantly detracts from the DPS and thus CQC capability of the rail., correct?
My suspicion is your answer will be "not really" and give me several points fairly logical points to back this up. That doesn't change the fact that an average player like me is actually experiencing the rail rifle as it was likely intended...great at long range and disadvantaged at CQC.
I use my SMG routinely in close range or tight maps exactly because of the disadvantages in CQC that I experience as an average player.
I've said it many times...the better the player the more "OP" the weapon seems to the guy on the other side of it. Individual player skill is still the biggest factor in the game otherwise the SCR would wreck house more than it already does.
Not saying the RR doesn't need tweaks, I'm on board with a mild dmg reduction and lowering it's hip fire accuracy rating. I'm actually more on board with giving the AR an increase in ROF and hip fire accuracy to further separate itself in close range fights.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Prius Vecht
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
284
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Posted - 2014.02.08 00:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
You always balance with the top-tier player in mind. If you tune a game to make things easier for the unskilled user the things that an elite player can do will make your head spin.
Consider the RR. Its an idiot-proof weapon essentially. great at range, decent ROF, high damage and good in CQC. If an average player can get 20 kills with it a guy like Regnum will get 60.
Its why noob tubes have been so bad for FPS. Games like CoD want everyone to feel skilled and so they shorten the skill gap. here's a good article on it http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/13/call-of-duty-red-orchestra-2-interview/ |
Tolen Rosas
Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation
339
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Posted - 2014.02.08 00:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Essentially, in this case, the CR outperforms the AR. As a result, people use the CR over the AR and its role is overshadowed. This is not a good thing. Ideally, every weapon should be balanced so that it has its own role in which it shines. It's fine to be versatile, but not to outperform other weapons in their niche as well as being versatile.
this is very true and in theory how u want the game to be balanced. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
9116
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Posted - 2014.02.08 10:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:This isn't really a case of 'who' the developers should balance toward. It's a case of everything needing its own role.
Hypothetically, if a weapon was similar to another weapon in most respects except it outperforms it in x attribute with no disadvantage compared to the other, people are going to use the advantaged weapon.
So it is in Dust. A number of weapons are simply better than others - consider the rifle class, and specifically the CR and AR. Let's not start a flame war, but let's have a quick comparison:
The combat rifle and assault rifle do similar damage per bullet, with the assault rifle managing slightly more. The combat rifle has a significant rate of fire advantage over the assault rifle. The combat rifle has a range advantage over the assault rifle. The combat rifle and assault rifle have a similar clip size.
Essentially, in this case, the CR outperforms the AR. As a result, people use the CR over the AR and its role is overshadowed. This is not a good thing. Ideally, every weapon should be balanced so that it has its own role in which it shines. It's fine to be versatile, but not to outperform other weapons in their niche as well as being versatile.
Looking on from the rifle class, this is the reason rifles are the most prevalent weapon on the battlefield. They have versatility and the power to beat other weapons in their niche roles. As a result, they become much more widely used.
It's not a case of balancing towards people, it's a case of balancing so that everything can co-exist and be useful. Arkena, I see where you coming from and respect the concept and have a question back to you in a similar vein as the OP. Lots of folks complain about the DPS of the RR vs the AR when complaining about their relative ranges. In the long range game the RR absolutely applies it's max DPS (assuming perfect aim and even if both players see each other at same time) with minimum ability for the AR to retaliate, however, in shorter range the .25 sec reaction time significantly detracts from the DPS and thus CQC capability of the rail., correct? My suspicion is your answer will be "not really" and give me several points fairly logical points to back this up. That doesn't change the fact that an average player like me is actually experiencing the rail rifle as it was likely intended...great at long range and disadvantaged at CQC. I use my SMG routinely in close range or tight maps exactly because of the disadvantages in CQC that I experience as an average player. I've said it many times...the better the player the more "OP" the weapon seems to the guy on the other side of it. Individual player skill is still the biggest factor in the game otherwise the SCR would wreck house more than it already does. Not saying the RR doesn't need tweaks, I'm on board with a mild dmg reduction and lowering it's hip fire accuracy rating. I'm actually more on board with giving the AR an increase in ROF and hip fire accuracy to further separate itself in close range fights.
Jaysyn, I'm not advocating for any specific changes presently. CCP are doing an across the board reduction to rifle damage, so I think it's best to wait a little longer before exploding in tears and rage.
Fair enough that you think the charge time is a disadvantage. It is. It's just a very mitigatable disadvantage. Luckily, that's being changed as well - the active scanner is one of the main tools you can use to do that.
I feel that the tight hipfire is a huge advantage in CQC as well. Instead of trying to get people into straight, sub-10m CQC go for around 15m instead. At that range, your hipfire dispersion is tight enough to hit them accurately, but theirs is not tight enough to hit you very easily. It's not a range you can ADS at either, as (dependent on sensitivity) it'll often make it too difficult to track you if you strafe much. As a result, that tight hipfire leads to an advantage in that area, charge time aside. Something that you've partially brought up - but I'm just elaborating on my opinion here.
I would also point out, though, that I didn't mention the RR once in that post, so I must wonder how this came up.
ZATARA CARRIES US ALL
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
MAG Raven
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Science For Death
1538
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Posted - 2014.02.08 11:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
^^ COS IT'S OP AS FUCK.
Sorry, I know that was implied, but I thought it needed to be said.
Yeah, needs to be balanced around the pro players, otherwise bad things happen.
EDITed for grammar (stupid inadvertent semicolon).
Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters.
Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
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Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
1173
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Posted - 2014.02.08 11:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
I've been an advocate of versatility over raw power. The tier system is killing this game. The higher tier suits et al allow for more power in addition to some increased versatility. It should be more versatility and therefore better role definition will follow.
Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!
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