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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
37
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Posted - 2014.01.21 22:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Today I watched my team, with swarm launchers, try to take down a tank while the tanker laughed in our faces and picked off our anti-armor one by one. We respawned time and again only to let off a single complement of rockets before being blown away again by the same tank.
Lock-on delay gives the tank enough time to pick off anti-armor, no problem.
I recommend giving tanks +5 for killing mercs due to the low risk of getting the kill.
Also, if I dive bomb a tank with a dropship, then it should destroy the tank.
Grundstein Automation
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
821
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Posted - 2014.01.21 22:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
10 for a kill..... 20 extra for each crew member in the vehicle at the time
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=99075&find
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
40
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Posted - 2014.01.22 13:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
We need to vote this up.
Tankers face zero risk when killing infantry.
They don't deserve +50 for killing mercs.
Grundstein Automation
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
317
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Posted - 2014.01.22 13:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Lock-on delay gives the tank enough time to pick off anti-armor, no problem.
I recommend giving tanks +5 for killing mercs due to the low risk of getting the kill, not +50.
Also, if I dive bomb a tank with a dropship, then it should destroy the tank.
Case: Today I watched my team, with swarm launchers, try to take down a tank while the tanker laughed in our faces and picked off our anti-armor one by one. We respawned time and again only to let off a single complement of rockets before being blown away again by the same tank.
NO.
You play Kamikaze (one of the most Anti-fairplay thing) AND you think you deserved a kill or the fact to destroy the ennemy tank ?
You account should be buried nothing else.
Tanks Hardeners should be nerfed.
Blaster should be light nerfed.
Price should be higher but WP should'nt be changed.
A kill is a Kill.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
41
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Posted - 2014.01.22 13:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:A kill is a Kill.
Outmatched firepower, and outmatched defensive value. There is no balance in a tank vs merc kill.
That's like saying, pay me $50 to swat this fly vs pay me $50 to box this guy. There is a different level of intensity involved.
I don't understand why you said this:
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:You account should be buried nothing else.
Grundstein Automation
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Mordecai Sanguine
What The French
323
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Posted - 2014.01.22 15:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Mordecai Sanguine wrote:A kill is a Kill. Outmatched firepower, and outmatched defensive value. There is no balance in a tank vs merc kill. That's like saying, pay me $50 to swat this fly vs pay me $50 to box this guy. There is a different level of intensity involved. I don't understand why you said this: Mordecai Sanguine wrote:You account should be buried nothing else.
And a Tank cost millions of ISK and millions of SP to be effective.
But right now the militia tank cost too less.
And even std cost too less that's what is said to higher their price. |
Aikuchi Tomaru
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1649
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Posted - 2014.01.22 16:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ok. Also reduce WP for a tank killing another vehicle to 50 then please.
Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
45
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Posted - 2014.01.22 16:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:
And a Tank cost millions of ISK and millions of SP to be effective.
But right now the militia tank cost too less.
And even std cost too less that's what is said to higher their price.
So, it seems that your position is that tankers should be rewarded for what they own, not skill on the battlefield.
One tank round will kill a merc, whereas thousands of bullets cannot stop a tank.
I stand by my request that tankers don't need much skill to kill infantry and therefore the payout should be much less than +50.
Grundstein Automation
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Thermoris Togeras
DETHDEALERS
Public Disorder.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.22 23:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
maybe you should try tanking and see how easy it is before u talk about reducing things
and maybe if u have better AV you would b able to take tank out its not that hard |
Kigurosaka Laaksonen
DUST University
Ivy League
183
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Posted - 2014.01.22 23:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
50 for a kill is 50 for a kill.
DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/
EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
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Ulysses Knapse
Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm
1102
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Posted - 2014.01.22 23:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
This won't solve any balance problems, if that's what you're hoping for.
What's the difference between an immobile Minmatar ship and a pile of garbage?
The pile of garbage is more lethal.
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BobThe 844-1 CakeMan
Murder Cakes Of Doom
1521
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Posted - 2014.01.22 23:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lol then a sniper should get 5 per kill since it requires 0 skill.
Ur logic is flawed.
and trust me i have more skill than u. inside or outside of my tank.
Main - BobThe843CakeMan
Ringing for PC for a price, msg for details.
Prices are based on who ur facing and how i feel.
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
46
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Posted - 2014.01.22 23:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
Here are a handful of considerations:
Offensive differences: A tank can level a field of soldiers in a few seconds. How many infantry builds do you see that can do that? Infantry can fire bullets at a tank all day long to no avail.
Defensive differences: A tank can withstand thousands of HP damage and the shield regenerates faster than any number of bullets can inflict damage. Infantry perish after one or two tank rounds, not to mention that they can be run over.
Mobility differences: A tank can hunt down infantry due to velocity advantage. Infantry can fit into tight spaces. Tank can aim and move at constant velocity. Infantry slows down while aiming and moving.
Range differences: A tank's range is virtually unlimited. Swarm Launchers and Forge Guns have limited ranges.
Time to attack differences: A tank points and shoots. AV takes time to 1.) lock-on rockets 2.) set demo and detonate 3.) throw AV grenades timed well enough to detonate on target.
Exposure: In order to attack a tank, at some point infantry is somewhat exposed. Tanks are always exposed unless tucked away out of action.
It's not a one-to-one scaling. Tanks are gods compared to infantry and do not deserve +50 kills. Infantry must think quickly and react to the opponent foot-soldier's skill level. Tanks just point and shoot.
I'd say that tanks truly deserve a +5 for an infantry kill, +50 for a HAV kill, +5 for a LAV kill and +10 for a dropship kill.
Grundstein Automation
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
46
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Posted - 2014.01.22 23:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote:Lol then a sniper should get 5 per kill since it requires 0 skill.
Ur logic is flawed.
and trust me i have more skill than u. inside or outside of my tank.
What is the risk to a sniper?
What is the risk to a tank?
What is the risk to a ground soldier?
Each is situational, but the evidence is in what generally happens on the field.
Draw from you extensive field experience and apply what you know of how much skill is required in each situation in order to determine the amount of reward due for each. I'd like to hear your payout scale for a kill.
I think tanks have it easy since they don't have to worry about mercs who carry light weapons and side arms, which is the majority of soldiers on the field.
Grundstein Automation
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
46
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Posted - 2014.01.22 23:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kigurosaka Laaksonen wrote:50 for a kill is 50 for a kill.
Not all kills are equal.
For instance, I wait until you are about to finish off a heavy, then I jump in and get the +50 kill and you get +25 kill assist. What if you just inflicted 1600 HP damage and I inflicted 88 damage? Whose effort was greater?
Does the payout reflect the effort or skill that went into the kill and kill assist? No.
Use your brain, kid.
Grundstein Automation
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
46
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Posted - 2014.01.23 00:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:This won't solve any balance problems, if that's what you're hoping for.
Not hoping to solve balance problems, just payout problems. The WP system is all jacked up, specifically when it comes to tank kills.
Grundstein Automation
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Eko Sol
3dge of D4rkness
SoulWing Alliance
71
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Posted - 2014.01.23 00:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'm all about doing SOMETHING about tanks BUT a reduced WP value for merc kills is stupid.
Every good team should have tanks. It doesn't make sense that tanks should have no reward for being used or being used well. That being said, Orbitals rely on WP and thus you are crippling entire squads as opposed to a single thing.
I've mentioned before and have an additional comment about tanks. Decrease tank speed or increase swarm damage or increase swarm range to like 300m. A valid arguement was made to me that makes 400m is a bit OP but I think 300m or less is most definitely not. Just one of those. Nothing else needs to be done in addition. |
Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
450
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Posted - 2014.01.23 00:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
All signs are pointing to you doing it wrong. I've had random blues destroy 3 tanks in seconds with a combination of my AV nades/plasma cannon and swarm launchers. No "teamwork" or anything just everybody doing what they could. All well withing blaster range.
Henchmen21: Infantry
Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
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Thermoris Togeras
DETHDEALERS
Public Disorder.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.23 00:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
ok lets look at battlefield it is a very well balanced game and is similar to dust tanks get the same amount of points for killing infantry as infantry on infantry do.
and if u think small arms fire should take out a tank then u really need to stop playing dust
also if u reduced the amount of wp u get for destroying enemy tanks to 50 then that means u get more wp from destroying installations which is stupid!!
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
48
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Posted - 2014.01.23 00:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Thermoris Togeras wrote:and if u think small arms fire should take out a tank then u really need to stop playing dust
I never said this.
Grundstein Automation
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Lazy Scumbag
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
100
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Posted - 2014.01.23 00:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:This won't solve any balance problems, if that's what you're hoping for.
Vehicles are out of balance. Cost and sp are irrelevant. Show me a militia tank that can shred a proto in less than a second and then we'll be getting closer to how balance works in this game.
I've said this before, but as long as vehicles lack objectives that do not involve infantry, they have no better way to spend their time.
The real problem is that most maps (all new maps) are built for vehicle use, but lacking for infantry. Too much space needing to be crossed without cover, too little stamina. |
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
48
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Posted - 2014.01.23 00:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:All signs are pointing to you doing it wrong.
I am an observer and try various tactics. On a typical team where people are generally disorganized and don't work well together, tanks can tear through soldiers like tissue paper.
That's beside the point.
THE POINT IS
1 TANK ROUND is a merc KILL with NO RISK
Grundstein Automation
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
48
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Posted - 2014.01.23 00:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Eko Sol wrote:a reduced WP value for merc kills is stupid.
I agree that there are other ways to balance out gameplay, but this thread is concerning payout, not gameplay.
If you have experience with both foot-soldiering and tanking then consider the work that goes into soldier vs soldier kills. Now imagine the ease of getting a tank vs soldier kill. Feel the difference?
This thread is about payout. The effort exerted for a tank kill is minimal. It's like shooting equipment +5
Grundstein Automation
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Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
450
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Posted - 2014.01.23 01:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:All signs are pointing to you doing it wrong. I am an observer and try various tactics. On a typical team where people are generally disorganized and don't work well together, tanks can tear through soldiers like tissue paper. That's beside the point. THE POINT IS 1 TANK ROUND is a merc KILL with NO RISK
If one round is killing you it was a rail round, which means you were standing perfectly still, that's on you.
I run solo which means most of the time i am on a team of other random solos. All I need is to time my attacks with any other random AVer and we'll destroy most tanks. If I am on my vehicle alt and in a tank I can assure every red tank on the field is running at an extreme risk. Tanks need a speed nerf or prox mines shouldn't give a warning. Maybe reduce blaster ranger so AV nades are threat to them. it's their ability to just run away that makes them too powerful not that they can kill infantry.
Henchmen21: Infantry
Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
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Clone D
Grundstein Automation
51
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Posted - 2014.01.23 01:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Henchmen21 wrote:If one round is killing you ...
Whether it's because a merc doesn't have many skill buffs or because the merc is wearing light armor, or because the tank attack damage is buffed, it's possible for a tank to kill in 1 or very few rounds. Agreed?
Does it take the same skill to get a kill with a tank that it takes to get a kill as a foot soldier? No.
You are advocating that unequal work deserves equal pay. That is precisely why the entire WP system is broken beyond measure.
Grundstein Automation
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Thermoris Togeras
DETHDEALERS
Public Disorder.
0
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Posted - 2014.01.23 01:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
all im saying is grab a tank and see how good u r and maybe if u weren't using sucky AV u would kill tanks. tanks aren't hard to kill at all just go on youtube [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjqUBXIfuUI] |
KING CHECKMATE
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
3929
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Posted - 2014.01.23 01:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Lock-on delay gives the tank enough time to pick off anti-armor, no problem.
I recommend giving tanks +5 for killing mercs due to the low risk of getting the kill, not +50.
Also, if I dive bomb a tank with a dropship, then it should destroy the tank.
Case: Today I watched my team, with swarm launchers, try to take down a tank while the tanker laughed in our faces and picked off our anti-armor one by one. We respawned time and again only to let off a single complement of rockets before being blown away again by the same tank.
You have my vote : +1
DOWN with EZ mode tanking.
GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
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Henchmen21
Planet Express LLC
451
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Posted - 2014.01.23 01:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Henchmen21 wrote:If one round is killing you ... Whether it's because a merc doesn't have many skill buffs or because the merc is wearing light armor, or because the tank attack damage is buffed, it's possible for a tank to kill in 1 or very few rounds. Agreed? Does it take the same skill to get a kill with a tank that it takes to get a kill as a foot soldier? No. You are advocating that unequal work deserves equal pay. That is precisely why the entire WP system is broken beyond measure.
The WP isn't the issue though, it's the fact that tanks can so easily retreat. Make prox mines a legitimate danger and see how fast tankers stop bull rushing infantry and only retreating when they take serious damage or their hardeners run out. Bring blaster tanks within throwing range and see how eager they are to heedlessly plow into a group of infantry when AV nades rain down around them. Increase the threat and the WP is justified. Decrease the WP and all you do is drive tankers away from the game.
Henchmen21: Infantry
Gotyougood Ufkr: Vehicles
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Thermoris Togeras
DETHDEALERS
Public Disorder.
1
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Posted - 2014.01.23 01:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
[/quote]If you have experience with both foot-soldiering and tanking then consider the work that goes into soldier vs soldier kills. Now imagine the ease of getting a tank vs soldier kill. Feel the difference?
[/quote]
I have a ground soldier which is this character and a tank character named Gary Togeris I know how it feels to b killed by a tank and get kills in a tank. I can mow through people on my infantry character just as easy as I can in a tank. its all about ur skill level and ur skill at the game. the game is all about tactics come up with a tactic that takes out tanks its not hard unless u don't try or u just suck |
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
51
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Posted - 2014.01.23 02:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thermoris Togeras wrote:its all about ur skill level and ur skill at the game. the game is all about tactics come up with a tactic that takes out tanks its not hard unless u don't try or u just suck
This is an idea concerning payout. There's no need to insult my personal skill level. I am a master tactician and a skilled game player in general. I study game theory and economics. I have played both as a tanker and as soldier on the ground. I have tried many tactics and I'm not saying that there aren't ways to take down tanks.
I am compartmentalizing. That is when you separate concerns into their own scope and then discuss a particular point in isolation from other components, although they might be related.
Gameplay - Tanks are a problem. Read the forum entries.
Payout - Tank kills are lower risk than foot soldier kills. Why do they deserve +50? Even your mom could get kills in a tank easier than as a grunt.
Grundstein Automation
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Harpyja
Molon Labe.
Public Disorder.
1128
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Posted - 2014.01.23 03:57:00 -
[31] - Quote
Clone D wrote:We need to vote this up.
Tankers face zero risk when killing infantry.
They don't deserve +50 for killing mercs.
Sure. Only if medium suits: +35; heavy suits: +20; and sniper rifles: +15 for killing mercs. I mean, if we're basing off of risk, light suits should get the current +50 and everything else gets reduced WP because they aren't as easy to kill, or put the user out of harm's way (sniper rifles).
But seriously, this is just one of the worst ideas I've seen to pop up on these forums.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Sick Metagamer
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2014.01.23 04:07:00 -
[32] - Quote
Mordecai Sanguine wrote:Clone D wrote:Mordecai Sanguine wrote:A kill is a Kill. Outmatched firepower, and outmatched defensive value. There is no balance in a tank vs merc kill. That's like saying, pay me $50 to swat this fly vs pay me $50 to box this guy. There is a different level of intensity involved. I don't understand why you said this: Mordecai Sanguine wrote:You account should be buried nothing else. And a Tank cost millions of ISK and millions of SP to be effective.But right now the militia tank cost too less. And even std cost too less that's what is said to higher their price.
Not to kill infantry.... A militia tank with no SP towards tanking can destroy a team of militia with no tank. |
deepfried salad gilliam
Sanguine Knights
389
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Posted - 2014.01.23 04:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
no.
Proud Christian
one of the most essential parts of eve is left out of dust: freedom, exploration, open-world gameplay.
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Goric Rumis
Dead Six Initiative
Lokun Listamenn
343
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Posted - 2014.01.23 04:44:00 -
[34] - Quote
This is the wrong way to balance tanks. A kill should be worth a kill, regardless. If it's too easy for tanks to get the kill, then that's the problem--not that tanks are getting too much reward for it.
The Tank Balancing Factor No One Is Discussing
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Cooper Eudaemon
DUST University
Ivy League
131
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Posted - 2014.01.23 08:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
I think some variation in WP for kills in general is a good idea.
Currently, TTK is so low that it is actually very easy to rack up kills as infantry, even against proto suits.
Also, I have to say that personally, I find it very easy to avoid tanks (though they should show up on radar WAY more easily).
Tankers that are racking up 20-40 kills are tankers going against blueberries that are too stupid to run away and hide, and hit a different target.
So, AFTER the game gets rebalanced, so that tanks are less OP, and TTK is long enough that you can actually react to being shot at, I will wholeheartedly support a more varied kill WP payout.
Say:
Proto dropsuit 70 WP
Adv 60 WP
Basic 50 WP
Militia 40 WP
Basic HAV 120 WP
Militia HAV 90 WP
Basic LAV 60 WP
Milita LAV 40 WP
Assault DS 120 WP
Basic DS 100 WP
Milita DS 80 WP
I think this accounts well enough for the teamwork required to bring down vehicles, as well as the fact that the small hitbox, high maneuverability, and ability to hide behind cover makes competent infantry hard for vehicles to find and kill.
I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums...
I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
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poison Diego
NECROM0NGERS
The CORVOS
298
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Posted - 2014.01.23 08:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Stop this nonsense! increase the price, nerf railguns. and spec inti assault forguns. 2xAssault forguns=dead tank
SUCK ON MY BIG BLACK BASIC BLASTER
WELCOME TO WORLDofTANKz514
put your seatbelts on, ITs GONNA BE A BUMPY RIDE!!
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True Adamance
Kameira Lodge
Amarr Empire
6095
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Posted - 2014.01.23 09:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Clone D wrote:Lock-on delay gives the tank enough time to pick off anti-armor, no problem.
I recommend giving tanks +5 for killing mercs due to the low risk of getting the kill, not +50.
Also, if I dive bomb a tank with a dropship, then it should destroy the tank.
Case: Today I watched my team, with swarm launchers, try to take down a tank while the tanker laughed in our faces and picked off our anti-armor one by one. We respawned time and again only to let off a single complement of rockets before being blown away again by the same tank.
LIES! This information is false.
He was on the other team! He could not hear that tanker laughing at him!
"My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity."
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RKKR
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
668
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Posted - 2014.01.23 09:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
Did you guys know you get less guardian points for repping a HAV? |
Clone D
Grundstein Automation
63
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Posted - 2014.01.23 10:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cooper Eudaemon wrote:I think some variation in WP for kills in general is a good idea.
Yes, another variation would be:
WP = 10 * [ ( Opponent's Defensive Value / Your Defensive Value ) + ( Opponent's Offensive Value / Your Offensive Value ) ]
Example:
Opponent armor + shield = 1500 HP
My armor + shield = 184 HP
Opponent primary weapon = 425 HP per second
My primary weapon = 400 HP per second
If I get the kill, then WP = 10 * [ ( 1500 / 184 ) + ( 425 / 400 ) ] = 92
If opponent gets the kill, then WP = 10 * [ (184 / 1500 ) + ( 400 / 425 ) ] = 10
In other words, if it is hard to get a kill, then you get more WP, or if it is easy to get a kill, then you get less WP.
CHANGE KILL ASSIST. All players should get WP in a ratio equivalent to the amount of damage done to the target.
That would change the formula to:
WP = Contribution * 10 * [ ( Opponent's Defensive Value / Your Defensive Value ) + ( Opponent's Offensive Value / Your Offensive Value ) ]
Where Contribution = Amount of Damage You Inflicted / Total HP of Enenmy
Translation: if I did 50% of the damage to kill an opponent, then I get 50% the WP that I would get if I were to do 100% of the damage.
Grundstein Automation
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