DUST Search - 1.8 Sentinel Effective HP Calculations

Pokey Dravon wrote:

Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:

On topic, Would you say that the marginal superiority in EHP is worth losing speed over?

And can you possibly do potential EHP calculations? So, maxed stats, stacking complex plates and extenders, with no respect for fitting costs (aside from slots :D)

I have not done the math but I think with the slot setups, the Amarr have the best balance of defense and offence. 3 lows allows them a significant amount of armor plating and the two highs give them the damage output they need without losing much to stacking penalties. I think this in itself will make the Amarr Sentinel a very flexible unit for deployment where minimal movement is required, such as defending and then assaulting from one objective to another that is nearby.

The Gallente will probably have superior defenses if done right, slightly faster, but with less damage output. Their HP will be spread out more over shields and armor than Amarr, which could be a good or bad thing depending on what the enemy is using to attack.

But to answer your question, high base EHP allows you to a little more flexibility because you can rely more on your base HP as buffer, but at the same time the sacrifice to speed is a big disadvantage. In the end it comes down entirely to what situation you're using said Sentinel in..

As for potential fits...haha thats waaay too many combinations for me to test. I will however do calcs for each Armor Plate and Shield Extender and give the effective HP each of those will add, so you can do some mock fits on your own with simple addition.

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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1623	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:20:00 - [1] - Quote SCOPE This document calculates the effective HP values of the upcoming Sentinel suits in Uprising 1.8. It calculates base damage for each weapon type, accounts for shield and armorGÇÖs natural resistances and weaknesses, and applies it to the dropsuitGÇÖs base HP. ASSUMPTIONS -Assumes Sentinel Skill is to Level 5 -Assumes no modules are used; these are base suit HP values -Assumes no Damage modifiers are used -Assumes data released by developers is final for 1.8 -Assumes Splash Damage is Explosive. Obviously Flux Grenades and other weapons have splash damage, but Explosive Splash will be the most commonly encountered. CALCULATIONS Table Format: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqPqc0ScXKN7dGFkcEQ4N1Vzb25NSFNaMFB6NE05elE&usp=sharing Amarr Sentinel GÇô 2 High 3 Low Lasers\|\|1050 EHP = 300 Shield + 750 Armor Blaster\|\|994 EHP = 327 Shield + 667 Armor Projectile\|\|1021 EHP = 379 Shield + 642 Armor Rail\|\|990 EHP = 444 Shield + 545 Armor Explosive\|\|1267 EHP = 600 Shield + 667 Armor Caldari Sentinel GÇô 4 High 1 Low Lasers\|\|974 EHP = 486 Shield + 488 Armor Blaster\|\|995 EHP = 561 Shield + 433 Armor Projectile\|\|907 EHP = 553 Shield + 355 Armor Rail\|\|938 EHP = 583 Shield + 355 Armor Explosive\|\|1308 EHP = 875 Shield + 433 Armor Gallente Sentinel GÇô 1 High 4 Low Lasers\|\|981 EHP = 325 Shield + 656 Armor Blaster\|\|938 EHP = 355 Shield + 583 Armor Projectile\|\|941 EHP = 411 Shield + 530 Armor Rail\|\|995 EHP = 433 Shield + 561 Armor Explosive\|\|1233 EHP = 650 Shield + 583 Armor Minmatar Sentinel GÇô3 High 2 Low Lasers\|\|926 EHP = 382 Shield + 544 Armor Blaster\|\|892 EHP = 355 Shield +537 Armor Projectile\|\|806 EHP = 411 Shield + 395 Armor Rail\|\|829 EHP = 433 Shield + 395 Armor Explosive\|\|1133 EHP = 650 Shield + 483 Armor CONCLUSION Amarr clearly have the advantage in terms of base Effective HP, with all EHP values very close to or above 1000 for all damage types. However, low shield HP means they will be reliant on repair tools for support unless they sacrifice armor plating for passive reps. Gallente have the potential for the most armor HP but decent shield HP may encourage them to use armor repairers over plates for a full passive fit. They do however have the lowest damage output of all the sentinels. Caldari will be AV monsters. With 4 high slots they have the highest damage output with strong shields for solo regeneration and decent armor as a backup. They will however suffer from lower EHP than Gallente or Amarr because shield extenders are not nearly as beneficial as armor plates. Minmatar are the most flexible sentinel with 3 high slots for shield tanking, but 2 low slots and good base armor HP for armor tanking. Minmatar sentinels could choose for a very fast shield tanked fit, or a slower armor tanked fit with better damage output. Most Sentinels with some buffer will be able to survive 1 Remote Explosive if they are at full health. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Beck Weathers Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 354	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:24:00 - [2] - Quote Good stuff +1
NextDark Knight Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 131	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:56:00 - [3] - Quote +1 Great job! Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1. Original ROF needs to return!
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2110	Posted - 2014.01.20 22:05:00 - [4] - Quote +1 Know thine enemy Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
DJINN Nukem Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 511	Posted - 2014.01.20 22:12:00 - [5] - Quote thank you for the Great write up, It would of took me forever to come up with that! +1 Trample The Weak Hurdle the Dead
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1641	Posted - 2014.01.20 22:52:00 - [6] - Quote DJINN Nukem wrote: thank you for the Great write up, It would of took me forever to come up with that! +1 One does not simply play an EVE game without Excel open on one's computer. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Marad''er Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 448	Posted - 2014.01.20 22:59:00 - [7] - Quote Amarr is the greatest. Our faith in our armor is as strong as our faith in God. GôÉGô¥GôÿGô£Gôö > GôÉGô¢Gô¢ Gÿà¿When will dust get better?Gÿà Forum Warrior LV. 4 \| pâÅpéñpâápü»tºüpü«µëôµÆâpéÆF¦ápüúpüªpüäpéï \| PSN: I-NINJA-ALL-DAY
Centurion mkII Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 195	Posted - 2014.01.20 23:08:00 - [8] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Amarr is the greatest. Our faith in our armor is as strong as our faith in God. False idol?
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2113	Posted - 2014.01.20 23:39:00 - [9] - Quote Marad''er wrote: Amarr is the greatest. Our faith in our armor is as strong as our faith in God. You misspelled Anime Marauder. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1644	Posted - 2014.01.20 23:40:00 - [10] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Marad''er wrote: Amarr is the greatest. Our faith in our armor is as strong as our faith in God. You misspelled Anime Marauder. Both of you cut it out, this is a thread for information and discussion, not bickering and trolling. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP

Lorhak Gannarsein 1255	Posted - 2014.01.20 23:47:00 - [11] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Marad''er wrote: Amarr is the greatest. Our faith in our armor is as strong as our faith in God. You misspelled Anime Marauder. Both of you cut it out, this is a thread for information and discussion, not bickering and trolling. but but but but but Amarr! As soon as we get a laser, I'll be happy. Would you say that the marginal superiority in EHP is worth losing speed over? And can you possibly do potential EHP calculations? So, maxed stats, stacking complex plates and extenders, with no respect for fitting costs (aside from slots :D) Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
Rusty Shallows 847	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:06:00 - [12] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CONCLUSION Amarr clearly have the advantage in terms of base Effective HP, with all EHP values very close to or above 1000 for all damage types. However, low shield HP means they will be reliant on repair tools for support unless they sacrifice armor plating for passive reps. Or they can literally run with those raw HP numbers, Kin-Cats, and two Complex Damage mods. A good compliment with their stamina advantages. Here, have some candy and a Like. :) Forums > Game
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1646	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:11:00 - [13] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: On topic, Would you say that the marginal superiority in EHP is worth losing speed over? And can you possibly do potential EHP calculations? So, maxed stats, stacking complex plates and extenders, with no respect for fitting costs (aside from slots :D) I have not done the math but I think with the slot setups, the Amarr have the best balance of defense and offence. 3 lows allows them a significant amount of armor plating and the two highs give them the damage output they need without losing much to stacking penalties. I think this in itself will make the Amarr Sentinel a very flexible unit for deployment where minimal movement is required, such as defending and then assaulting from one objective to another that is nearby. The Gallente will probably have superior defenses if done right, slightly faster, but with less damage output. Their HP will be spread out more over shields and armor than Amarr, which could be a good or bad thing depending on what the enemy is using to attack. But to answer your question, high base EHP allows you to a little more flexibility because you can rely more on your base HP as buffer, but at the same time the sacrifice to speed is a big disadvantage. In the end it comes down entirely to what situation you're using said Sentinel in.. As for potential fits...haha thats waaay too many combinations for me to test. I will however do calcs for each Armor Plate and Shield Extender and give the effective HP each of those will add, so you can do some mock fits on your own with simple addition. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1646	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:13:00 - [14] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CONCLUSION Amarr clearly have the advantage in terms of base Effective HP, with all EHP values very close to or above 1000 for all damage types. However, low shield HP means they will be reliant on repair tools for support unless they sacrifice armor plating for passive reps. Or they can literally run with those raw HP numbers, Kin-Cats, and two Complex Damage mods. A good compliment with their stamina advantages. Indeed, kinda like a just mentioned in my previous post, high base HP allows you to rely on it rather than modules for buffer. This is very similar to how many Madrugars don't bother using plates because their base armor HP is so high, they can rely on it to tank against damage. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Rusty Shallows 847	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:17:00 - [15] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Rusty Shallows wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CONCLUSION Amarr clearly have the advantage in terms of base Effective HP, with all EHP values very close to or above 1000 for all damage types. However, low shield HP means they will be reliant on repair tools for support unless they sacrifice armor plating for passive reps. Or they can literally run with those raw HP numbers, Kin-Cats, and two Complex Damage mods. A good compliment with their stamina advantages. Indeed, kinda like a just mentioned in my previous post, high base HP allows you to rely on it rather than modules for buffer. This is very similar to how many Madrugars don't bother using plates because their base armor HP is so high, they can rely on it to tank against damage. Time to consolidate posts? Aside trying to speed tank a heavy isn't new. Guys were talking about it in this forum within the last few months. Here, have some candy and a Like. :) Forums > Game
Lorhak Gannarsein 1256	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:18:00 - [16] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: On topic, Would you say that the marginal superiority in EHP is worth losing speed over? And can you possibly do potential EHP calculations? So, maxed stats, stacking complex plates and extenders, with no respect for fitting costs (aside from slots :D) I have not done the math but I think with the slot setups, the Amarr have the best balance of defense and offence. 3 lows allows them a significant amount of armor plating and the two highs give them the damage output they need without losing much to stacking penalties. I think this in itself will make the Amarr Sentinel a very flexible unit for deployment where minimal movement is required, such as defending and then assaulting from one objective to another that is nearby. The Gallente will probably have superior defenses if done right, slightly faster, but with less damage output. Their HP will be spread out more over shields and armor than Amarr, which could be a good or bad thing depending on what the enemy is using to attack. But to answer your question, high base EHP allows you to a little more flexibility because you can rely more on your base HP as buffer, but at the same time the sacrifice to speed is a big disadvantage. In the end it comes down entirely to what situation you're using said Sentinel in.. As for potential fits...haha thats waaay too many combinations for me to test. I will however do calcs for each Armor Plate and Shield Extender and give the effective HP each of those will add, so you can do some mock fits on your own with simple addition. :) Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3834	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:19:00 - [17] - Quote Good post. +1 GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1618	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:34:00 - [18] - Quote As it should be in my opinion. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 2182	Posted - 2014.01.21 01:21:00 - [19] - Quote I've said repeatedly that I'm going gK.0 Sentinel, but that 2/3 on the aK.0 is awfully tempting. Natalie Portman.
Regnier Feros Immortal Guides 11	Posted - 2014.01.21 01:30:00 - [20] - Quote opinions on dual tank amarr or minmatar? Minmatar Women Do It Better

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1657	Posted - 2014.01.21 02:05:00 - [21] - Quote Regnier Feros wrote: opinions on dual tank amarr or minmatar? Depends entirely on if you want speed or more HP. I need to do calcs with modules still, but they're going to be similar. Minmatar Sentinel = Low EHP + Faster Sprint + Less Stamina Amarr Sentinel = High EHP + Slow Sprint + More Stamina 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Ghost Kaisar Titans of Phoenix Legacy Rising 2119	Posted - 2014.01.21 02:12:00 - [22] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Marad''er wrote: Amarr is the greatest. Our faith in our armor is as strong as our faith in God. You misspelled Anime Marauder. Both of you cut it out, this is a thread for information and discussion, not bickering and trolling. Fair point. How do you think the Minmatar heavy will fare? With a lower eHP total, do you think it's speed will make up for it's eHP downfalls? Should we begin to fear the MInmatar speed tanked heavy with an HMG? Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. Minmatar. In Rust we trust.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1657	Posted - 2014.01.21 02:17:00 - [23] - Quote I think a shield tanked Minmatar heavy with speed mods in the right hands will be absolutely terrifying. Minmatar suits have a reputation for requiring a unique play style that differs significantly from other suits of the same class. However I think once those select few master the speed tanked Minmatar Sentinel, they're going to be a force to be reckoned with. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Lorhak Gannarsein 1259	Posted - 2014.01.21 09:14:00 - [24] - Quote Regnier Feros wrote: opinions on dual tank amarr or minmatar? Well, re: Amarr, I have it on good authority that dual tanking is a sin. But honestly, it depends entirely on what happens with high slot modules. It might be that you're better off shield tanking your highs, assuming damage mods do get nerfed. To put it another way, there are very few heavies right now with more than 600 shields... Who knows, though. I might dabble with rechargers and regulators. Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1672	Posted - 2014.01.21 19:26:00 - [25] - Quote Post updated with effective HP values of Armor Plates and extenders for each suit, as requested. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Lorhak Gannarsein 1277	Posted - 2014.01.22 13:01:00 - [26] - Quote Oh my God, that is so much more in depth than I meant! Wow! Thanks! Will definitely be taking advantage of this amazing resource. Pokey for CPM? Happily printing ISK with permahardeners and MLT blasters. Just let me get a couple mil more before nerf, CCP!
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1684	Posted - 2014.01.22 16:03:00 - [27] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Oh my God, that is so much more in depth than I meant! Wow! Thanks! Will definitely be taking advantage of this amazing resource. Pokey for CPM? Well I started doing just the Complex Plates and Extenders, but if you're like me and like to skill into a suit for bonuses but only run low level gear, you would find the Militia and Standard useful as well. At that point I said hell with it and just did all of them I'd also love to be more involved in the game, so CPM is something I'm really considering when election time rolls around. Until then expect more resources for you to reference and use! 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Virtual Riot The Vanguardians INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 126	Posted - 2014.01.22 16:45:00 - [28] - Quote I'm fairly certain your math in wrong. You're calculating resistances wrong. ex. Amarr Sentinel has 600 armor and 360 shield. With armor and shield at level five that gives you 800 armor and 480 shield Armor and shield bonus at level 5 is 25%. This is calculated thusly. Armor: (600 / .75) = 800 Shield: (480 / .75) = 480 The EHP of an Amarr suit against laser weaponry is calculated thusly. Armor: (800 / 0.8) = 1000 Shield: (480 / 1.2) = 400 EHP against laser weaponry is 1400, not 1050. Linky I would assume that your math is done by taking the base value, multiplying by the modifier, then adding it back to the base value. ex. Armor: (600 x 0.25) + 600 = 750 Shield: (360 x 0.25) + 360 = 450 Against lasers; Armor: (750 x 1.2) = 900 Shield: (450 x 0.8) = 360 for a total of 1260 against lasers. Idk because that's not even how you posted it, you posted it at 1050. Regardless you should double check your maths.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1686	Posted - 2014.01.22 18:17:00 - [29] - Quote You are correct that I did not include the +25% HP bonus, I'll fix that asap. I'm generally a vehicle guy and we no longer an HP bonus skill, so I honestly forgot that it existed. As for my math this is how I was doing it Damage Modifier = Natural Damage modifier * Skill modifier So Laser vs Shield on Minmatar DmgMod = 1.20.85 = 1.02 =102% This is basically the same as what you linked if we treat the damage bonus lasers get as a -20% resist Resistance = 1-[(1-(-.2))(1-.15)] = -0.02 Resistance So in that regard its the same. So here is my confusion is it: Effective HP = Base HP / Damage modifier EHP = 390/1.02 = 382.35 OR Effective HP = Base HP + Base HP * Resistance EHP = 390 + ( 390-.02) = 382.20 I went with the first one because I think the second is incorrect, for example if you resist 50% of the damage you take, your effective HP would be double right? EHP = 100 + (100 .5) = 150 =/= 200 By all means if I am wrong please correct me, I want to have a better understanding of this stuff anyways. For now I'll go back and add in the 25% to armor and shields and rework the calcs. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
Virtual Riot The Vanguardians INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 126	Posted - 2014.01.24 15:08:00 - [30] - Quote Hey yeah, looking at this thread again. I did a thread awhile back where I showed the ehp of drop ships. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122219 I originally got it wrong by calculating it like this Say you had a dropship with 2000 shield hp Say you get hit with a forge gun that does 1000 damage Forge guns do -10% to shields. I was doing 1000 + (1000 x 0.10) = 1100 But really its done like this 1000 / 1.1 = 1111.11 So in conclusion; EHP = Base HP / (Modifier + 1) So for Laser vs Shield it would be EHP = Base HP / (0.20 + 1) For Laser vs Armor it would be EHP = Base HP / ( 1 - 0.20) Hope that helps



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