DUST Search - More re: scout bonuses, esp Amarr

Reav Hannari wrote:

Ludvig Enraga wrote:

Aizen Intiki wrote:

Amarr tends to hang back, not as far as Caldari, but they are out there, so giving them shotgun bonuses would be stupid. (Plus, it's aGallente weapon, and yea, I know about NK's, that's stupid too. Will probably change once the Min Knives come)

When ajar scout hangs back he becomes an assault though.

I think the two key concepts that came out of the last thread were "scouts are disruptive" and "Amarr focus on assault." A light assault with the ability to cloak is certainly a disruptive force. They don't need anything fancy added to that. They are not there to hack, sabotage or scan you down. You don't see them. Then the first in your squad dies and now you see the enemy in your midst, dropping your team with one headshot after another. If they are still alive they then disappear. Now you are wondering when they'll pop up again.

I'd call that a disruptive influence. Their bonuses should be to enhance that. So, either increase survivability, damage output or both. Adding the equivalent of a complex stamina module is appropriate to compensate them for being the slowest scout.

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Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 832	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:13:00 - [1] - Quote Wanted to start a new thread since I am writing a biggish post to see what reception would be, so here (please read the bottom paragraph if you are impatient). fyi, I did read the original thread on this topic so feel free to refer back and forth from it as well. I think part of the problem that all suits are bonused at random as opposed to having bonuses that are tightly balanced - for example, most ppl would say that +5% bonus per level to scan radius is much much better than 5% to stamina. Things being what they are I think it's not realistic to aim for things that are balanced but rather look for things that are FAIR. This way ppl can pursuit their play style without feeling that they are totally penalized even though things may be not in perfect balance. Now to the core of my proposal: Scout has a small number of specialty parameters (the things that make a scout a scout) - see below; the question is how to fairly divi them up between the races. 1) Stealth 2) Passive scanning 3) Speed 4) Stamina 5) CQC weapons 6) ?sniping - not sure it belongs with scouts anymore because there is no specific mechanic in the game to encourage scouts sniping vs brick tank sniping. Passive scanning bonuses and stealth have been divi'd up between gal and cal - nothing left there. Speed cannot be directly bonused because this would cause hit detection issues, so everyone has some built-in bonus which is meh compared to assault suits. Otherwise, min is the one who got most scraps in this department. At this point all the low hanging fruit have been picked, so amar and min get 'less desirable' bonuses. Min takes one big part of CQC - NK and honestly it's good enough for me a min scout. To sweeten the deal CCP added hacking bonus which is def a wild card because it used to be a logi bonus but it does make sense to have it on a scout - will be useful and I'l be happy (though lets face it if I like to play ambush it's nearly useless). Now, enough about other suits. What about Amarr? There are no things left to take from really. Amarr gets the only thing that's left - stamina and that's not a bad one for a suit that's supposed to move around a lot. What I believe would sweeten the deal for Amarr is to give bonus to some other CQC weapons - scrambler pistol (Amar tech so it makes sense) or Shotguns - and that one is a lost scout glory weapon, again makes sense. I would propose either a 5% bonus per level to delay reduction between successive shots to either weapon OR 10% delay reduction to reload to either weapon. This way I know many ppl will still go for Amarr scout that will be less scouty but more hard hitting (amar style) CQC scout. What do ya all think? Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 832	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:19:00 - [2] - Quote Whiskey Fueled Merc wrote: Amarr aren't cqc fighters. You give a long range race a bonus to CQC and you ruin Minmatar and gallente specialties. Not really, min would be good with knives at CQC, amarr for example with SG and gal will be good at CQC because it's got best passive scanner. You'll just have to choose which CQC style you want instead of having it all. There is no such thing IMO as a long range scout. Sniper if you want it but I doubt it would be popular with too many ppl. I am strongly opposing to bonusing things like rifles on scouts - if you want that play style, it's fine - it's easy to do with plates and CR but it should not be encouraged. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 833	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:30:00 - [3] - Quote Aizen Intiki wrote: Amarr tends to hang back, not as far as Caldari, but they are out there, so giving them shotgun bonuses would be stupid. (Plus, it's aGallente weapon, and yea, I know about NK's, that's stupid too. Will probably change once the Min Knives come) When amar scout hangs back he becomes an assault though. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 833	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:30:00 - [4] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: Aizen Intiki wrote: Amarr tends to hang back, not as far as Caldari, but they are out there, so giving them shotgun bonuses would be stupid. (Plus, it's aGallente weapon, and yea, I know about NK's, that's stupid too. Will probably change once the Min Knives come) When amar scout hangs back he becomes an assault though. No.... You become a long range fight not a short range fighter. You use a scrambler or laser instead of a shotgun or AR. example: You hang 70 m back, cloak up, move to the flank, uncloak, pew pew dead. The enemy sees you, you cloak up and run away and move to their other flank at a distance. pew pew dead. You do the same thing as other scouts do (get the jump on people for assassination) except from your intended range (long distance). Assaults are about making a ton of noise and not caring and out tanking or damaging someone. As a scout you rely on stealth and surprise ganks. Your range doesn't make you an assault. How you engage people dictates whether you are an assault or a scout. it sorta makes sense except you won't need a cloak for it or a stealthy scout imo. An assault with a couple of cardiac regulators would do the same job same or better. I kinda doubt the whole concept of 'flanking at a distance'. Flanking to me means sneaking into a position where the enemy is vulnerable and unloading a large alpha damage and hopefull escaping thereafter. I just don't see how this may work with a laser rifle for example, which in theory (if it actually was not nerfed) would be a denial weapon where the user uses a longer range to keep enemy from getting closer. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 833	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:42:00 - [5] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: Aizen Intiki wrote: Amarr tends to hang back, not as far as Caldari, but they are out there, so giving them shotgun bonuses would be stupid. (Plus, it's aGallente weapon, and yea, I know about NK's, that's stupid too. Will probably change once the Min Knives come) When ajar scout hangs back he becomes an assault though. I think the two key concepts that came out of the last thread were "scouts are disruptive" and "Amarr focus on assault." A light assault with the ability to cloak is certainly a disruptive force. They don't need anything fancy added to that. They are not there to hack, sabotage or scan you down. You don't see them. Then the first in your squad dies and now you see the enemy in your midst, dropping your team with one headshot after another. If they are still alive they then disappear. Now you are wondering when they'll pop up again. I'd call that a disruptive influence. Their bonuses should be to enhance that. So, either increase survivability, damage output or both. Adding the equivalent of a complex stamina module is appropriate to compensate them for being the slowest scout. That's what I said exactly - keep stamina bonus and give them some sort of damage bonus that's suitable for a scout (in my view it can only be either CQC or sniping - if it's a bonus to, say, scrambler rifle we are not talking about scouts anymore but rather we are in the amarr assault territory). Scrambler pistol would make perfect sense, however, few ppl use them and so a buff to them would not appeal to a lot of ppl. SG buff makes perfect sense for a scout, though Amarr don't fit racially for that - however, at this point in the game many things don't fit perfectly, so it's a small sacrifice to have a gal weapon bonused on Amarr in my view. Lastly, if there was enough enthusiasm a buff to remote explosives, for example +1 RE per level, would be another acceptable bonus. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 833	Posted - 2014.01.21 02:22:00 - [6] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Just wait until Amarr gets their racial shotgun, then let's hear the discussion that Amarr is not meant for any CQC. Yeah I know there is no official confirmation that there will be racial shotguns, but just wait and see. I suggest that CCP could re-work the breach SG - say, call it "scrambler SG" reduce delay a little, give it three shots, longer range and significantly higher damage - like so that it should be able to take out a middle of the road heavy with 2 shots after it's full leveled and bonused and take out brick tanked heavy with 3 shots or 2 with a damage mode. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 834	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:54:00 - [7] - Quote Meee One wrote: You are all idiots. The bonus isn't just "stamina" as the deceptive OP would have you believe. -Stamina -Stamina regen Too many people keep referring to the cardiac regulator,and are to ******** to see each one of these are it's OWN INDIVIDUAL bonus. The only reason you see it as 'only one bonus' is because ONE module gave TWO effects. Show meee another module that boosts TWO things...oh yeah that's right it doesn't exist! The result: If the amarr scout wants to increase its bonus it'll only cost 1 slot,unlike other scouts where it will take TWO slots to boost each one! Now STFU and let this topic die from ALL forums. OP was not deceptive. It's author assumed that the reader has a brain and is at least somewhat familiar with the topic before posting in this thread. But otherwise I'll say this. Math is not straight forward because you can't measure a benefit in 'module numbers' since some modules are a lot more desirable for any given slot than others. An example would be a damage mod vs shield recharger - both take one high slot but everyone knows that one of them will never be equipped. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 834	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:59:00 - [8] - Quote Please, enough with blanket statements like 'bonus to laser weaponry'. How do you see this practically? A scout that runs around with scrambler rifle? Running around with a medium range weapon - is this really supposed to be what scouts are for? Sounds like an assault suit to me. If anyone has a coherent counterargument, please, share it. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!