+1

What I've seen of the new suit related skill bonuses shows a trend more of sweeping changes than of fine tuning balance.
It's hard to say without numbers but the primary impression so far, if it holds, indicates these changes will be an outright nerf for players who truly adopt a support role. Logistics suits without the change are already slower, have lower eHP, are bright yellow, and are the least likely to receive support (due to their role) they also tend to be on balance more ISK/SP intensive to field a loadout with roughly equivalent stats (to their racial medium frame counterpart).

Assault suits needed some love, especially with regards to some of their skill bonuses (I've been saying this for quite awhile), Logistics suits did not need what amounts to a nerf - certainly not while other changes in the game have diminished the average TTK. Certainly not a nerf that will hamper player innovation and choice by binding optimal equipment use to racial type while making them even more fragile. Further the changes to the logi don't really discourage the creation of non-support fits based on the logi frame, combine a skill bonus to hives with repper hives and you've got something useful for an assault based logi suit, but that same suit is less effective for a support logi who aren't supposed to be on point and who frequently are moving with their squad rather than at their own mandate.

I would very much like to see numbers from CCP regarding the comparative risk vs reward value of medium frames with the new skills applied. Maybe there's a factor (or two) in there which I've overlooked or don't have access too, but so far the changes don't seem to result in a solid, or frankly even an improved, risk vs reward balance between medium frame loadouts and unless there is a clear improvement to the risk vs reward balance of those possible fits I can't help but think this is not an improvement or benefit to balance or game quality.

0.02 ISK
Cross

PS ~ If there are numbers which contradict my assessment please do link them. I'd be more than happy to see solid information which proves my current perception to be incomplete/in error.

That's entirely fair and I won't dispute it at all.
That being said I'd still favor a granulated implementation for the sake of proper vetting over a ground up overhaul that will put increased strain on the NPE, the meta game, and frankly the QA teams, before the dust settles and we've started to ferret out all the new bugs and exploits that are virtually inevitable with so much changed all at once. At the minimum holding of on changing things that directly impact eHP until TTK has been fine tuned to meet the threshold CCP wants it at.


While I agree the assaults need some love I've spent months on these forums asking for fittings examples that, sans racial skill buffs, put a "killer bee" above it's racial assault, and I've yet to see one. With the skill bonus included the old CalLogi surly met that mark but no where in that is the whole role let alone suit layout indited by the facts. In current game state the substantive difference between the suits in the medium line is that the logistics have lower base stats in exchange for more fittings flex. This can be used to good effect no question but it also requires a higher SP investment and a higher ISK cost to field as you're fitting more mods per load out than on the assault. It also means that various general skill buff effects provide less for the logistics frame than they give to the assault because the base values of the assault are higher (fittings skills are the notable exception to this trend).

Bluntly put, I've only seen information to support the idea that the assault suits need better racial skill buffs (and maybe a better role bonus so it's not lopsided towards some races). I have yet to see any solid or compelling evidence which supports the contention that any further changes to the medium suit line are called for. I've seen volumes of hyperbole but no meaningful evidence and yet we're still looking at some massive changes and I'm still not hearing any clear and direct statements from CCP regarding why, that combination of massive change and general silence is something I find much less than ideal.


Something like you propose above would be a good sight better as a way to solve the contention. I'm still of a mind that the changes should be almost exclusively to the assault side of the medium line with the only real change to the logistics frames being a minimum two equipment slots filled before the load out is considered valid for deployment. Those two aspects together should do the trick, and if not the values could be fiddled with lightly to find the right balance.
I am honestly still baffled (not directed at you btw) at how often this subject is addressed in a way that completely glosses over the cost aspect of the cost v benefit dynamic, it is rather rare that posters proclaiming this "problem" to be in dire need of redress actually provide comparative SP and ISK investment costs to support their stance. And really if "you pay more ISK to get more effect" isn't the intended foundation of gear balance in Dust then what is? Without the cost aspect clearly included the argument might as well be "proto gear is better than my militia gear, that's not balanced, nerf it" which, while I've seen those posts too, would only serve to flatten the game play and reduce the sandbox excessively.

Cheers,
Cross

PS ~ I'd just like to take a moment here to thank you for keeping the discussion constructive and hostility free, it's appreciated mate

Those are accurate observations, however they're not direct inditements of the logistics suit or support load outs which means that the problems aren't centered there and thus best solutions won't be either. "Killer bees" aren't shouldering the same burden in fittings, SP, or ISK that a support player is so if the "fix" to mechanics is such that the logistics frames/load outs are nerfed to the point where bees aren't considered a problem anymore then it's guaranteed the actual support players have just been gimped. Hence why I'm so amendment other methods need to be employed, such as giving the assault suits solid enough skill buffs et al to make them a more attractive choice and requiring 1-2 pieces of equipment be part of each logi fit. These may not solve everything but they're smaller more precise steps which improve on the situation and can be fine tuned to address the situation as things develop, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater as it were.

As to the ISK faucet, well that's clearly a problem with PC and needs to be addressed but we can't simply dismiss the comparative value of ISK throughout the game because of it or we've just eliminated a key aspect of the risk v reward aspect of dust. It would be the same if someone were able to exploit for limitless SP, that exploit would need fixed, not the SP system ignored/scrapped, see what I'm saying? I don't think there's much of a case to be made for the current iteration of PC being balanced and in a good place, but that's PC balance not medium frame balance.


/nods
I can see your point here, however the proposed changes effect the GalLogi suit, and that fit specifically, least out of the field.
Barring changes to the actual suit layout (since my comments have been focused on the skill changes) the net effect on that type of fit will be; a bit less buffer, the same reps, the same dps, and better scans/more WP from scans.
Unlike the rest of the logi frames who are effectively trading 5/HPs for -25% fittings cost on equipment, the GalLogi is trading that 5/HPs for better scans because it already has the discount at present.

Snip

So as it stands the changes on balance put more of a burden on support players than "killer bees" and do so in a way that only minimally addresses the specific example(s), while also not addressing the issues present in damage mods, PC ISK flow, or providing the Assault suit a solid value (just nerfing the logi suit until it's weaker than the assault doesn't mean the assault is now valuable, it simply means the whole medium frame line is now weaker compared to both light and heavy).

Simply put the problem doesn't seem very specifically assessed and what assessment there is doesn't point to the proposed changes being an effective meaningful fix for the issues raised, the changes will however make playing support harder, and more costly for all new players and non-ISK farmers. All in all that seems to me to be a pretty bad call, unless there's new information which I'm still missing.

Cheers,
Cross