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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1061
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Posted - 2014.01.17 14:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Gallente warfare is in your face dps with brick tank.
minmatar domain is hit and run for repairs. they have naturally lower base HP, due to slot layout also lower total EHP for a minor speed boost.
this is all fine in theory but when you take a look at the announced changes then the numbers are off. taking a closer look and quickly doing the math using the sentinel as base I get the following results: the announced minmatar sentinel has less HP (~ -10%) and a bit more speed (~ +5%) as base values compared to gallente.
imho that 5% extra speed does not compensate for the huge 10% hp drop and gallente gains a free armor repair too. but before we make a final conclusion, lets take a look at a fully fit suits...
and actually the gap widens even more after full fit due to the slot layout and armor plates giving more HP compared to shield extenders. after full tank fitting the minmatar has ~15 % less HP and ~ 8% more speed (loses another 5% HP for a meager 3% additional speed advantage). do not forget that gallente has the built in armor repair for free too additionally to that.
so in short: who came up with the brilliant idea to give gallente free armor repairs after combat too additionally to their excellent speed and total EHP when minmatar are the guys for hit and run for repairs? |
Harpyja
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
1111
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Posted - 2014.01.17 14:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gallente have always been armor based with a focus on armor repairs, as well as being the second fastest race. I don't know why Gallente in Dust weren't like that from the start but it's never too late to change.
Minmatar have always been speed tankers that can tank either shield or armor but not as well as the other races. I see no reason why they should be given an innate armor regen. I think instead they should get a more noticeable speed buff.
Caldari are the best shield tankers but also the slowest race.
Amarr are the best armor tankers with a focus on brick tanking. They also have more shield than Gallente. Amarr has more low slots than Gallente but less medium slots, giving Amarr greater tank and Gallente greater utility. I don't know why the slot layouts in Dust have been reversed and made Amarr hybrid tankers.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Asha Starwind
VEXALATION CORPORATION Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
163
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Gallente have always been armor based with a focus on armor repairs, as well as being the second fastest race. I don't know why Gallente in Dust weren't like that from the start but it's never too late to change.
Minmatar have always been speed tankers that can tank either shield or armor but not as well as the other races. I see no reason why they should be given an innate armor regen. I think instead they should get a more noticeable speed buff.
Caldari are the best shield tankers but also the slowest race.
Amarr are the best armor tankers with a focus on brick tanking. They also have more shield than Gallente. Amarr has more low slots than Gallente but less medium slots, giving Amarr greater tank and Gallente greater utility. I don't know why the slot layouts in Dust have been reversed and made Amarr hybrid tankers.
Gallente ships are the slowest, not Cal. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2605
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Harpyja wrote:Gallente have always been armor based with a focus on armor repairs, as well as being the second fastest race. I don't know why Gallente in Dust weren't like that from the start but it's never too late to change.
Minmatar have always been speed tankers that can tank either shield or armor but not as well as the other races. I see no reason why they should be given an innate armor regen. I think instead they should get a more noticeable speed buff.
Caldari are the best shield tankers but also the slowest race.
Amarr are the best armor tankers with a focus on brick tanking. They also have more shield than Gallente. Amarr has more low slots than Gallente but less medium slots, giving Amarr greater tank and Gallente greater utility. I don't know why the slot layouts in Dust have been reversed and made Amarr hybrid tankers. Gallente ships are the slowest, not Cal.
Gallente focus on MWD for their ships and make the kinetic catalyzers for the soldiers.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2605
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
As a Minmatar I agree with moving the innate armor repair to the Gallente, the race that focuses on armor repair as part of their overall military doctrine.
The Minmatar should have low shield buffers but with fast recovery. Instead we have low shield buffers with slow recovery.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1061
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
and all those comments have nothing to do with dust.
dust is not eve.
active tanking does not exist for dropsuits like it does for ships in EVE.
beside that some of those comments about EVE are actually wrong
fact is, the speed advantage is either too low or minmatar has to be improved somewhere else. minmatar doesnt offer anything over gallente. I can slap on a sprint mod on the gallente suit, even out the speed difference and still have slightly more EHP. |
AmlSeb
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Minmatar are hit and run with weapon upgrades!! if you look at the EVE Minmatar bonuses you will see that they generally have higher damage boosts. Ragnarok (min titan) 125% damage to projectile turrets every other titan has only 100%.
Gallente have generally repair bonuses. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2606
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:and all those comments have nothing to do with dust. dust is not eve. active tanking does not exist for dropsuits like it does for ships in EVE. beside that some of those comments about EVE are actually wrong fact is, the speed advantage is either too low or minmatar has to be improved somewhere else. minmatar doesnt offer anything over gallente. I can slap on a sprint mod on the gallente suit, even out the speed difference and still have slightly more EHP.
You keep saying that you think DUST is not EVE. I'll keep saying that I think you are wrong. The military doctrines may vary some between space and ground forces but will generally be consistent. It's pretty obvious that Remnant and crew are working to shift the races back to the traditional doctrines now that racial parity is becoming a thing. Resistance tanking is starting to make an appearance and I bet we'll see active modules on dropsuits within a year that introduces active tanking.
Tell me how Gallente ships are not intended to use speed to move into position so that their blasters can do their thing.
Caldari are long range, slow and massively shield buffered.
Amarr are somewhat shorter range, slow and massively armor buffered.
Minmatar are short to mid range, consistently very fast and usually actively shield tanked but do armor tanking.
Gallente are the shortest range, use very fast speed bursts to close the distance and actively armored tanked.
Those are the core military styles. We're missing true active tanking but the always-on armor repairers are close enough. What is missing is the Minmatar being able to recover their shields and have enough speed to make a difference.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1061
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
AmlSeb wrote:Minmatar are hit and run with weapon upgrades!! if you look at the EVE Minmatar bonuses you will see that they generally have higher damage boosts. Ragnarok (min titan) 125% damage to projectile turrets every other titan has only 100%.
Gallente have generally repair bonuses. here we have a prime example how to make a totally irrelevant and wrong post and get a medal made out of poop.
projectiles in eve have lower base dps thus the titan gets a higher bonus just like the caldari titan
and again eve is not dust. |
AmlSeb
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
14
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Jack McReady wrote:and all those comments have nothing to do with dust. dust is not eve. active tanking does not exist for dropsuits like it does for ships in EVE. beside that some of those comments about EVE are actually wrong fact is, the speed advantage is either too low or minmatar has to be improved somewhere else. minmatar doesnt offer anything over gallente. I can slap on a sprint mod on the gallente suit, even out the speed difference and still have slightly more EHP. You keep saying that you think DUST is not EVE. I'll keep saying that I think you are wrong. The military doctrines may vary some between space and ground forces but will generally be consistent. It's pretty obvious that Remnant and crew are working to shift the races back to the traditional doctrines now that racial parity is becoming a thing. Resistance tanking is starting to make an appearance and I bet we'll see active modules on dropsuits within a year that introduces active tanking. Tell me how Gallente ships are not intended to use speed to move into position so that their blasters can do their thing. Caldari are long range, slow and massively shield buffered. Amarr are somewhat shorter range, slow and massively armor buffered. Minmatar are short to mid range, consistently very fast and usually actively shield tanked but do armor tanking. Gallente are the shortest range, use very fast speed bursts to close the distance and actively armored tanked. Those are the core military styles. We're missing true active tanking but the always-on armor repairers are close enough. What is missing is the Minmatar being able to recover their shields and have enough speed to make a difference.
Another thing that-¦s missing is the speed aspect for damage application. In EVE more speed means less damage taken. |
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zibathy numbertwo
Nox Aeterna Security
332
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote: *unintelligible blathering*
Shut up.
Long Live Freedom; Long Live the Federation.
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1061
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
love how the fanboys defend their stuff with total irrelevant answers, i have yet to see a valid response why it is justificated to lose 15% EHP for a meager speed gain that does not affect the outcome of a firefight.
AmlSeb wrote: Another thing that-¦s missing is the speed aspect for damage application. In EVE more speed means less damage taken.
how is that relevant again to dust? since when does my rifle has to care about transversal velocity? In dust I point my weapon at you and you die in 1 second...
Reav Hannari wrote: You keep saying that you think DUST is not EVE. I'll keep saying that I think you are wrong. The military doctrines may vary some between space and ground forces but will generally be consistent. It's pretty obvious that Remnant and crew are working to shift the races back to the traditional doctrines now that racial parity is becoming a thing. Resistance tanking is starting to make an appearance and I bet we'll see active modules on dropsuits within a year that introduces active tanking.
Tell me how Gallente ships are not intended to use speed to move into position so that their blasters can do their thing.
Caldari are long range, slow and massively shield buffered.
Amarr are somewhat shorter range, slow and massively armor buffered.
Minmatar are short to mid range, consistently very fast and usually actively shield tanked but do armor tanking.
Gallente are the shortest range, use very fast speed bursts to close the distance and actively armored tanked.
Those are the core military styles. We're missing true active tanking but the always-on armor repairers are close enough. What is missing is the Minmatar being able to recover their shields and have enough speed to make a difference.
who cares what you think how it should be?
also you are again wrong in many instances, just to mention the two most important: the always on armor repairer is not even close to what active tanking is in EVE. active tanking in EVE properly done can shrug off the damage of one to several ships. the repairer in dust is for after combat.
minmatar actually do everything in EVE, from passive to active tanking, both shield and armor and use alot of different weapons. arti has about the range of rails which are used by gallente and autocannons outdamage blasters at falloff ranges.
none of this is true in dust, so you point here is null and void. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention
7914
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Harpyja wrote:Gallente have always been armor based with a focus on armor repairs, as well as being the second fastest race. I don't know why Gallente in Dust weren't like that from the start but it's never too late to change.
Minmatar have always been speed tankers that can tank either shield or armor but not as well as the other races. I see no reason why they should be given an innate armor regen. I think instead they should get a more noticeable speed buff.
Caldari are the best shield tankers but also the slowest race.
Amarr are the best armor tankers with a focus on brick tanking. They also have more shield than Gallente. Amarr has more low slots than Gallente but less medium slots, giving Amarr greater tank and Gallente greater utility. I don't know why the slot layouts in Dust have been reversed and made Amarr hybrid tankers. Gallente ships are the slowest, not Cal.
This is incorrect.
The order goes, from fastest to slowest: Minmatar Gallente Caldari Amarr
This is because the Matari forces rely on having superior speed, Gallente forces frequently employ short range blaster tech and need to get into range. The Caldari haven't focused on speed much and the Amarrian battle philosophy is essentially bricking.
Level 7 Forum Warrior
Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution
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Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders
2608
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Posted - 2014.01.17 15:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:who cares what you think how it should be?
I feel the exact same way about you.
// Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1061
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Posted - 2014.01.17 16:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Jack McReady wrote:who cares what you think how it should be? I feel the exact same way about you. except that your opinion does not matter cause you have nothing valuable or relevant to contribute. if you have no clue about EVE, Dust and math, simple do not bother to post otherwise all you earn are medals out of poop that you made yourself
give me a valid response why it is justificated to lose 15% EHP for a meager speed gain that does not affect the outcome of a firefight then we might talk. all you have done now is post some imaginations about eve and I hightlighted it out were you are wrong. |
Harpyja
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
1112
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Posted - 2014.01.17 16:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:and all those comments have nothing to do with dust. dust is not eve. what is true for eve does not have to be true on dust, I can only point towards the remote repping bonus stats on minmatar logi taken from sisi. active tanking does not exist for dropsuits like it does for ships in EVE and beside that some of those comments about EVE are actually wrong fact is, the speed advantage is either too low and minmatar doesnt offer anything over gallente. I can slap on a sprint mod on the gallente suit, even out the speed difference and still have slightly more EHP. if you would take that innate repair away, the gallente suits are still slightly better. conclusion is, either increase the speed gap significantly or do something with the gallente suit. Sure, let's not use a game that just recently celebrated its 10th anniversary as a guideline. Let's start from scratch until we get it right (again)
Fact is, you can't active tank on dropsuits, be it armor or shield. But having a fast recovery rate allows you to get into engagements faster. Gallente and Caldari as such should have fast recovery rates. Amarr will be a brick tanker that won't be able to get back to an engagement quickly without some help. I agree the Minmatar need more pronounced speed for their weak buffer (though I've seen Minmatar logis with just as much armor as my Amarr logi).
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. Public Disorder.
1112
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Posted - 2014.01.17 16:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:Harpyja wrote:Gallente have always been armor based with a focus on armor repairs, as well as being the second fastest race. I don't know why Gallente in Dust weren't like that from the start but it's never too late to change.
Minmatar have always been speed tankers that can tank either shield or armor but not as well as the other races. I see no reason why they should be given an innate armor regen. I think instead they should get a more noticeable speed buff.
Caldari are the best shield tankers but also the slowest race.
Amarr are the best armor tankers with a focus on brick tanking. They also have more shield than Gallente. Amarr has more low slots than Gallente but less medium slots, giving Amarr greater tank and Gallente greater utility. I don't know why the slot layouts in Dust have been reversed and made Amarr hybrid tankers. Gallente ships are the slowest, not Cal. This is incorrect. The order goes, from fastest to slowest: Minmatar Gallente Caldari Amarr This is because the Matari forces rely on having superior speed, Gallente forces frequently employ short range blaster tech and need to get into range. The Caldari haven't focused on speed much and the Amarrian battle philosophy is essentially bricking. I'm pretty certain Caldari were the slowest. It's only when you add nanofibers do Caldari become faster than Amarr.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1061
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Posted - 2014.01.17 16:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Jack McReady wrote:and all those comments have nothing to do with dust. dust is not eve. what is true for eve does not have to be true on dust, I can only point towards the remote repping bonus stats on minmatar logi taken from sisi. active tanking does not exist for dropsuits like it does for ships in EVE and beside that some of those comments about EVE are actually wrong fact is, the speed advantage is either too low and minmatar doesnt offer anything over gallente. I can slap on a sprint mod on the gallente suit, even out the speed difference and still have slightly more EHP. if you would take that innate repair away, the gallente suits are still slightly better. conclusion is, either increase the speed gap significantly or do something with the gallente suit. Sure, let's not use a game that just recently celebrated its 10th anniversary as a guideline. Let's start from scratch until we get it right (again) Fact is, you can't active tank on dropsuits, be it armor or shield. But having a fast recovery rate allows you to get into engagements faster. Gallente and Caldari as such should have fast recovery rates. Amarr will be a brick tanker that won't be able to get back to an engagement quickly without some help. I agree the Minmatar need more pronounced speed for their weak buffer (though I've seen Minmatar logis with just as much armor as my Amarr logi). no one said that you should start from scratch, but using stuff as arguments that is not in game is just pure stupidity...
and you said it by yourself, fast recovery rate. where is the fast recovery rate of minmatar suits? it is only marginal better on shields though minmatar shields are actually not great, their armor is higher than their shields and you need an armor repairer to get it back. their overall health is lower while the speed advantage they gain for that drawback is meager.
please do the math your self, gallente sentinel with 3 complex plates and kincat vs minmatar sentinel with 2 complex plates + shield extenders and you will see that the gallente suit is just as fast while having more EHP + that free armor repair that the minmatar suit does not have. |
Draco Cerberus
BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder.
694
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Posted - 2014.01.17 16:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:... ... [quote=Reav Hannari] .... Could you tell us all where these bonuses are supposedly being applied? Last I heard you were mouth breathing some perfectly ridiculous ideas without citing sources?
If you want a discussion with someone about the merits of armor/shields and repair or tanking amounts, start offering information instead of broad statements that don't say anything at all. It makes you sound like my kids running around hitting each other all telling me "he started it".
LogiGod earns his pips
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Jack McReady
DUST University Ivy League
1061
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Posted - 2014.01.17 17:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:Jack McReady wrote:... ... [quote=Reav Hannari] .... Could you tell us all where these bonuses are supposedly being applied? Last I heard you were mouth breathing some perfectly ridiculous ideas without citing sources? If you want a discussion with someone about the merits of armor/shields and repair or tanking amounts, start offering information instead of broad statements that don't say anything at all. It makes you sound like my kids running around hitting each other all telling me "he started it". I am sorry that you are too stupid to check the stickied threads at the top of the feedback forum and apply basic math on it |
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