DUST Search - AV vs Infantry (Forget balance, lets talk fun)

Bones McGavins wrote:

Takahiro Kashuken wrote:

Thats basically making hardeners useless

If the mods can be hit for 100% all the time then why the **** do i use hardeners?

Why even bother with armor or shields if the mods can be hit 100% of the time

Even in World of Tanks the only way to damage a module on the tank is to hit where it is and also hope that you can damage it too and disable it if the shot did penetrate the armor but it has to penetrate most times to outright disable it thus armor is useful and angle right you can bounce shots and protect your hull and crew

Im all for hardeners protecting modules too. But then the hardners themselves would have to have low HP to allow them to be disabled through its own protection. But in the current scenario the damage done to a module does not translate to damage to the hull itself. The damage to the hull itself is calculated normally.

So example:

I have a tank, it has 2500 shields and 6000 armor.
I have a basic armor rep. It has 1000 shields, 1000 armor.

Scenario A) Tank has hardeners down. Forge gun hits the module for 2K damage. The basic armor rep takes 2000 damage is left with 0 health and is deactivated. The tank tanks 2000 damage.

Scenario B) Tank has shield hardener active. Forge gun hits the module for 2K damage. The basic armor rep takes 2000 damage is left with 0 health and is deactivated. The tank takes 800 damage.

Scenario C) Tank has hardeners down. 3 infantry with Combat Rifles empty entire clips into the module, dealing 3000 damage. The basic armor rep takes the full 3000 damage and is clearly disabled. The tank takes like 300 damage (i forget what the small arms effectiveness on vehicles is, im assuming 10%).

Scenario D) Tank has hardeners active. 3 infantry with Combat Rifles empty entire clips into the module, dealing 3000 damage. The basic armor rep takes the full 3000 damage and is clearly disabled. The tank takes 120 damage.

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Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 415	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:24:00 - [1] - Quote I believe one of the main issues with tank VS AV balance is one of "fun." Regardless of how things are balanced to make matches fair, a majority of players do not want to or enjoy AV. Throughout DUST, fighting tanks has always just been a DPS race. Certain updates swayed this race into tanks favor, certain updates into AV. But the core gameplay has been "throw enough damage at the tank to kill it before it can run." Even though I realize the following idea probably wont ever happen, this is my proposed fix: Each module installed on a tank will be visible on the tank, depending on the slot/hull and have its own set of health. Any damage done to the tank on the module not only hurts the tank as it would normally, but it also lowers the health of the module. When the module reaches 0 health, it is disabled. Depending on the module, the time it is disabled varies. Once it comes back online, it has full health again. In addition to this, turrets will also have a "module" where it can be damaged to "disable" the turret. A disabled turret can still function, but with a slower turn radius (perhaps lower ROF and longer reload time too). The hull of the vehicle already currently has a weak spot. Currently this does more damage. Instead, I propose that this acts as a module, which when disabled, reduces the speed of the vehicle. These modules are not impacted by hardeners, full damage will get through to the module. Also, small arms fire will be much more effective on the module. Allowing non AV players to at least help in the fight against vehicles, but still be rather useless in outright destroying them.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 415	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:26:00 - [2] - Quote The above idea will drastically change the way infantry vs tank gameplay occurs. Rather than being a DPS race, infantry could engage and position themselves in a way to use supperior aim to be more effective against the tank. Current health/DPS of both tanks and AV would need to be adjusted along side this new system. But I think the experience would be far more rewarding on both ends. Tanks positioning themselves to keep their hardeners from being exposed, or having to fire the second hardener cause the first was disabled would be more intense, more fun gameplay then "shoot fish in a barrel, engage hardeners and run" For the infantry side, its clearly a more fun experience. Some modules may be small and require the precise aim of small arms to destroy. A hardener, for example, could be taken out by a sniper firing a few well placed shots, allowing AV to enagage. Squad mates firing down the engine module to slow allow forgers to get off another, final shot on the fank would be a lot more fun and engaging than it currently is. Let me know what you think. Firing a forge gun shot to disable the turret rotation speed so your team can get to cover...etc. I know its probably asking too much to revamp the gameplay like this. But I feel like by making the engagements more fun, you have a situation where you can have tanks be as beastly as you want, and it would feel more like a "boss fight" for players engaging them instead of the current, unfun gameplay.
jordy mack Ultramarine Corp 104	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:38:00 - [3] - Quote Maybe reread ur subject line Less QQ more PewPew
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 417	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:39:00 - [4] - Quote jordy mack wrote: Maybe reread ur subject line Hah. Thanks for the heads up.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2230	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:44:00 - [5] - Quote Thats basically making hardeners useless If the mods can be hit for 100% all the time then why the **** do i use hardeners? Why even bother with armor or shields if the mods can be hit 100% of the time Even in World of Tanks the only way to damage a module on the tank is to hit where it is and also hope that you can damage it too and disable it if the shot did penetrate the armor but it has to penetrate most times to outright disable it thus armor is useful and angle right you can bounce shots and protect your hull and crew Intelligence is OP
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 720	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:48:00 - [6] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Thats basically making hardeners useless If the mods can be hit for 100% all the time then why the **** do i use hardeners? Why even bother with armor or shields if the mods can be hit 100% of the time Even in World of Tanks the only way to damage a module on the tank is to hit where it is and also hope that you can damage it too and disable it if the shot did penetrate the armor but it has to penetrate most times to outright disable it thus armor is useful and angle right you can bounce shots and protect your hull and crew Perhaps only the hardener mod that's active can be hit and all the others are protected, requiring you to dry to hit the hardener first? Btw OP, I like the idea
Denn Maell PIanet Express Canis Eliminatus Operatives 67	Posted - 2014.01.16 17:49:00 - [7] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Thats basically making hardeners useless If the mods can be hit for 100% all the time then why the **** do i use hardeners? Why even bother with armor or shields if the mods can be hit 100% of the time Even in World of Tanks the only way to damage a module on the tank is to hit where it is and also hope that you can damage it too and disable it if the shot did penetrate the armor but it has to penetrate most times to outright disable it thus armor is useful and angle right you can bounce shots and protect your hull and crew Taking bullet angle into account to allow some rounds to 'pierce' sounds like a very fun mechanicGÇªCPU intensive as all hell, mind, but fun. The most OP weapon on the Dust Battle Field: One good logi, one rep tool, and a heavy.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 798	Posted - 2014.01.16 18:33:00 - [8] - Quote They Should Fix the Basics first. Tank Rail Turret Glitch, Lag in game, swarm lock on glitch, Auto Aim, Lag, Framerate and Lag again... Improve hit detection, and so on...
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 417	Posted - 2014.01.16 18:46:00 - [9] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Thats basically making hardeners useless If the mods can be hit for 100% all the time then why the **** do i use hardeners? Why even bother with armor or shields if the mods can be hit 100% of the time Even in World of Tanks the only way to damage a module on the tank is to hit where it is and also hope that you can damage it too and disable it if the shot did penetrate the armor but it has to penetrate most times to outright disable it thus armor is useful and angle right you can bounce shots and protect your hull and crew Im all for hardeners protecting modules too. But then the hardners themselves would have to have low HP to allow them to be disabled through its own protection. But in the current scenario the damage done to a module does not translate to damage to the hull itself. The damage to the hull itself is calculated normally. So example: I have a tank, it has 2500 shields and 6000 armor. I have a basic armor rep. It has 1000 shields, 1000 armor. Scenario A) Tank has hardeners down. Forge gun hits the module for 2K damage. The basic armor rep takes 2000 damage is left with 0 health and is deactivated. The tank tanks 2000 damage. Scenario B) Tank has shield hardener active. Forge gun hits the module for 2K damage. The basic armor rep takes 2000 damage is left with 0 health and is deactivated. The tank takes 800 damage. Scenario C) Tank has hardeners down. 3 infantry with Combat Rifles empty entire clips into the module, dealing 3000 damage. The basic armor rep takes the full 3000 damage and is clearly disabled. The tank takes like 300 damage (i forget what the small arms effectiveness on vehicles is, im assuming 10%). Scenario D) Tank has hardeners active. 3 infantry with Combat Rifles empty entire clips into the module, dealing 3000 damage. The basic armor rep takes the full 3000 damage and is clearly disabled. The tank takes 120 damage.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 417	Posted - 2014.01.16 18:51:00 - [10] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: They Should Fix the Basics first. Tank Rail Turret Glitch, Lag in game, swarm lock on glitch, Auto Aim, Lag, Framerate and Lag again... Improve hit detection, and so on... it wont make shooting tanks fun. Its an inherantly un-fun gameplay for most people. Gun game, position etc all go out the window pretty quick. It really comes down to setting up the initial encounter, thats it. AV can try to pick a good moment to engage, and from a good vantage point. But beyond that, AV weapons (even forge) arent difficult to aim, and you really are just DPS racing at that point and hoping your initial plan of attack was enough. I want longer battles against tanks that feel dynamic and fun. Being able to target and disable the modules on the tank, coupled with an HP boost to said tanks would accomplish that. If I can aim better than the next guy, why shouldnt that factor into AV combat? Right now it doesnt really. The absolute only thing fun about AV right now is trying to target the butt for extra damage, but that isnt much. Beyond that its set up an opportunity to attack and then hope you can kill it before it flees. Id like to be able to recognize the modules it has, prioritize disabling one versus the other. AND give folks who havent yet respawned or had time to run to the supply depot to switch to AV have SOMETHING to do in the AV war (target modules to disable them with some effort).

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2233	Posted - 2014.01.16 18:54:00 - [11] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Thats basically making hardeners useless If the mods can be hit for 100% all the time then why the **** do i use hardeners? Why even bother with armor or shields if the mods can be hit 100% of the time Even in World of Tanks the only way to damage a module on the tank is to hit where it is and also hope that you can damage it too and disable it if the shot did penetrate the armor but it has to penetrate most times to outright disable it thus armor is useful and angle right you can bounce shots and protect your hull and crew Im all for hardeners protecting modules too. But then the hardners themselves would have to have low HP to allow them to be disabled through its own protection. But in the current scenario the damage done to a module does not translate to damage to the hull itself. The damage to the hull itself is calculated normally. So example: I have a tank, it has 2500 shields and 6000 armor. I have a basic armor rep. It has 1000 shields, 1000 armor. Scenario A) Tank has hardeners down. Forge gun hits the module for 2K damage. The basic armor rep takes 2000 damage is left with 0 health and is deactivated. The tank tanks 2000 damage. Scenario B) Tank has shield hardener active. Forge gun hits the module for 2K damage. The basic armor rep takes 2000 damage is left with 0 health and is deactivated. The tank takes 800 damage. Scenario C) Tank has hardeners down. 3 infantry with Combat Rifles empty entire clips into the module, dealing 3000 damage. The basic armor rep takes the full 3000 damage and is clearly disabled. The tank takes like 300 damage (i forget what the small arms effectiveness on vehicles is, im assuming 10%). Scenario D) Tank has hardeners active. 3 infantry with Combat Rifles empty entire clips into the module, dealing 3000 damage. The basic armor rep takes the full 3000 damage and is clearly disabled. The tank takes 120 damage. Yea no The hull of the tank protects everything inside the tank, the hardeners help reinforce the tank against damage further than without one What you are trying to do is world of tanks which im currently playing and it isnt needed in DUST Intelligence is OP
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 798	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:00:00 - [12] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: NAV HIV wrote: They Should Fix the Basics first. Tank Rail Turret Glitch, Lag in game, swarm lock on glitch, Auto Aim, Lag, Framerate and Lag again... Improve hit detection, and so on... it wont make shooting tanks fun. Its an inherantly un-fun gameplay for most people. Gun game, position etc all go out the window pretty quick. It really comes down to setting up the initial encounter, thats it. AV can try to pick a good moment to engage, and from a good vantage point. But beyond that, AV weapons (even forge) arent difficult to aim, and you really are just DPS racing at that point and hoping your initial plan of attack was enough. I want longer battles against tanks that feel dynamic and fun. Being able to target and disable the modules on the tank, coupled with an HP boost to said tanks would accomplish that. If I can aim better than the next guy, why shouldnt that factor into AV combat? Right now it doesnt really. The absolute only thing fun about AV right now is trying to target the butt for extra damage, but that isnt much. Beyond that its set up an opportunity to attack and then hope you can kill it before it flees. Id like to be able to recognize the modules it has, prioritize disabling one versus the other. AND give folks who havent yet respawned or had time to run to the supply depot to switch to AV have SOMETHING to do in the AV war (target modules to disable them with some effort). I can see how aiming with Forge or Plasma Might work... But please explain aiming with Swarms...
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:01:00 - [13] - Quote That's enough endorsement for me. I like it.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 417	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:06:00 - [14] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: Bones McGavins wrote: NAV HIV wrote: They Should Fix the Basics first. Tank Rail Turret Glitch, Lag in game, swarm lock on glitch, Auto Aim, Lag, Framerate and Lag again... Improve hit detection, and so on... it wont make shooting tanks fun. Its an inherantly un-fun gameplay for most people. Gun game, position etc all go out the window pretty quick. It really comes down to setting up the initial encounter, thats it. AV can try to pick a good moment to engage, and from a good vantage point. But beyond that, AV weapons (even forge) arent difficult to aim, and you really are just DPS racing at that point and hoping your initial plan of attack was enough. I want longer battles against tanks that feel dynamic and fun. Being able to target and disable the modules on the tank, coupled with an HP boost to said tanks would accomplish that. If I can aim better than the next guy, why shouldnt that factor into AV combat? Right now it doesnt really. The absolute only thing fun about AV right now is trying to target the butt for extra damage, but that isnt much. Beyond that its set up an opportunity to attack and then hope you can kill it before it flees. Id like to be able to recognize the modules it has, prioritize disabling one versus the other. AND give folks who havent yet respawned or had time to run to the supply depot to switch to AV have SOMETHING to do in the AV war (target modules to disable them with some effort). I can see how aiming with Forge or Plasma Might work... But please explain aiming with Swarms... Well using swarms already has this issue with current the weak spot. That being said... re-implement a dumbfire mode for swarms. But also make swarms act like AV nades. They will only explode when they hit a vehicle or installation so they cant be used as noob toobs.
Jake Diesel BIG BAD W0LVES 62	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:21:00 - [15] - Quote How about I give a scenario E: Two cloaked scouts highly specced for speed and stealth, run to the target tank's module, plants RE's, decloaks, then shoot the module at optimum range. Flees then detonates RE's. Done. Less chance of detection. Less chance of getting killed. 90% effectiveness to eliminate Tank. Cheaper fit. Makes other AV's pointless.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 799	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:49:00 - [16] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: NAV HIV wrote: Bones McGavins wrote: NAV HIV wrote: They Should Fix the Basics first. Tank Rail Turret Glitch, Lag in game, swarm lock on glitch, Auto Aim, Lag, Framerate and Lag again... Improve hit detection, and so on... it wont make shooting tanks fun. Its an inherantly un-fun gameplay for most people. Gun game, position etc all go out the window pretty quick. It really comes down to setting up the initial encounter, thats it. AV can try to pick a good moment to engage, and from a good vantage point. But beyond that, AV weapons (even forge) arent difficult to aim, and you really are just DPS racing at that point and hoping your initial plan of attack was enough. I want longer battles against tanks that feel dynamic and fun. Being able to target and disable the modules on the tank, coupled with an HP boost to said tanks would accomplish that. If I can aim better than the next guy, why shouldnt that factor into AV combat? Right now it doesnt really. The absolute only thing fun about AV right now is trying to target the butt for extra damage, but that isnt much. Beyond that its set up an opportunity to attack and then hope you can kill it before it flees. Id like to be able to recognize the modules it has, prioritize disabling one versus the other. AND give folks who havent yet respawned or had time to run to the supply depot to switch to AV have SOMETHING to do in the AV war (target modules to disable them with some effort). I can see how aiming with Forge or Plasma Might work... But please explain aiming with Swarms... Well using swarms already has this issue with current the weak spot. That being said... re-implement a dumbfire mode for swarms. But also make swarms act like AV nades. They will only explode when they hit a vehicle or installation so they cant be used as noob toobs. Go to the Search section and type in : Swarms Dumbfire... ask any tanker if they would like that... There are suggestions, bad suggestions and then there are things like this. We are past the dumb fire thing and it was for the best... If you wanna have fun with Tanks vs AVs... Well then ask for Balance. Not AV>Vehicles, Vehicles > AV
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 418	Posted - 2014.01.16 20:19:00 - [17] - Quote Dumbfire swarms were bad because they could be used as noob tubes. Treating them like AV nades where they can only explode on contract with a tank eliminates that. But that is side-tracking the actual point of the thread, which is damagable/disabled modules allowing for more dynamic, interesting AV gameplay. Swarms not factoring into that is fine. Why? Because small arms fire would do normal damage to modules, so someone using swarms could first CBR,RR etc the module they want to target before hitting the hull with swarms.


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