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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1470
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Posted - 2014.01.14 16:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
SCOPE
This document will attempt to decrease the disparity of combat effectiveness between high SP characters and low SP characters through a concept known as GÇÿtiericideGÇÖ.
CONCEPT
Tiericide removes the increased benefit of high level modules by giving all modules the same benefit, regardless of tier. This means that a prototype module gives the same immediate benefit as a militia module. However, all modules have a negative effect which decreases as tier increases. For example, all armor plates would give the same amount of HP, but the Standard Plate would reduce speed by 7% and Prototype Plate would reduce speed by 3%. This gives higher tiered gear the same advantage as low tier gear, but less of a disadvantage.
Additionally, modules within the same class would have benefits and disadvantages that complement each other. For example, Module 1 increases X and decreases Y, Module 2 increases Y and decreases Z, Module 3 increases Z and decreases X. Negative effects should never exceed the benefit another module provide, therefor a mix of modules will produce a net increase in all attributes. This also discourages large stacks of the same module type and encourages variety in fitting.
Note that there are some modules which do not come with a downside and their effectiveness increases with tier. However these modules have reduced effectiveness compared to similar modules that include negative effects. (IGÇÖm very much open to suggestions of reasonable downsides to these particular modules).
The tiericide system is designed to make Dust based more on player skill and teamwork and less on total SP. The concepts outlined below are my personal opinion and I am open to suggestions to improvement. I also am avoiding using absolute values as I feel it distracts from the concepts at hand.
Reminder: Benefit is constant regardless of tier. Negative Effect decreases as tier increases.
MODULES
Shields
Shield Extenders
Benefit: Increased Shield HP
Negative Effect: Increased Shield Recharge Delay
Shield Regulator
Benefit: Decreased Shield Recharge Delay
Negative Effect: Decreased Shield Recharge Rate
Shield Energizer
Benefit: Increased Shield Recharge Rate
Negative Effect: Decreased Shield HP
Shield Regenerator
Benefit: Small Increase Shield Recharge Rate
Negative Effect: ??
Armor
Armor Plates
Benefit: Increased Armor HP
Negative Effect: Decreased Movement Speed
Armor Repairer
Benefit: Armor Regeneration
Negative Effect: ??
Ferroscale Plate
Benefit: Small Increase Armor HP
Negative Effect: Decreased Armor Repair Rate
Adaptive Plating
Benefit: Small Increase Armor HP & Regeneration
Negative Effect: Decreased Movement Speed
Nanofiber Structure
Benefit: Increased Movement Speed
Negative Effect: Decreased Armor HP
Biotics
Cardiac Regulator
Benefit: Increased Stamina Pool
Negative Effect: Decreased Sprint Speed
Kinetic Catalyzer
Benefit: Increased Sprint Speed
Negative Effect: Decreased Stamina Recovery
Cardiac Stimulant
Benefit: Increased Stamina Recovery
Negative Effect: Decreased Stamina Pool
Myofiber Stimulant
Benefit: Increased Melee Damage
Negative Effect: ??
Weapon Upgrades
Damage Modifier
Benefit: Increased Damage
Negative Effect: Increased Recoil & Decreased Accuracy
Inertial Stabilizer
Benefit: Increased Accuracy & Decreased Recoil
Negative Effect: Decreased Damage
Electronics
Precision Enhancer
Benefit: Increased Scan Precision
Negative Effect: Decreased Scan Range
Range Amplifier
Benefit: Increased Scan Range
Negative Effect: Decreased Scan Precision
Profile Dampener
Benefit: Decreased Signature Profile
Negative Effect: Decreased Hack Speed
Codebreaker
Benefit: Increased Hack Speed
Negative Effect: Increased Signature Profile
DROPSUITS
Dropsuits of the same class should have identical Base HP, attributes, and Slot Configuration, regardless of tier. PG and CPU increase with tier.
WEAPONS
Weapons of the same class should have identical damage output, regardless of tier. Variables that increase with tier would vary depending on the weapon. For example, variables such as accuracy, recoil, magazine size, and range could change as tier increases.
CONCLUSION
While many will argue and complain that a system like this does not properly reward those who have more SP, I believe that it helps to level the playing field and put more emphasis on player skill. Additional SP allows for a more optimized fit without giving the player an excessive advantage in health and damage.
More emphasis will be placed on fitting, allowing players to give up some advantages in order to gain others so that they may better tailor fits to their personal playstyle. New players will be able to start the game in basic gear and still remain competitive against veterans, but on that same note veterans will be able to better optimize and customizes their fits. In addition, this system would prevent 'protostomping' in public matches and make an overall more enjoyable experience for players new and old.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1474
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Posted - 2014.01.14 18:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Prius Vecht wrote:+10 to this. make #1 determiner so new players can compete and the game can grow.
It's not only that, it makes player skill significantly more important, but it also avoids the CoD gameplay by keeping the same skill system and actually deepening the fitting system.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1479
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Posted - 2014.01.14 18:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dusters Blog wrote:Pokey Dravon we have been a big fan of tiercide since it was mentioned. our blog has always supported making better gear an upgrade by more subtle means rather than have it with more impact than skill. A militia AR that does 34 dmg with 40 rounds, an iron sight and no customization slots is inferior to a GEK that does 35 dmg has 60 rounds and a slot for customization where upgrades like a scope, extended mag stabilizer, suppressor or energy bayonet could be added.
While I think weapon customization is a good idea that should be implemented in the future, I feel that right now we need to focus on making fixes to the current system, not implementing additional systems. I've already spoken with the developers about this, and while they would like to do it, the current game is not hardcoded to accept this type of system and thus it would take extensive amounts of resources dedicated just to add weapon customization. I feel that at this time, it is not very high on the priority list, which is why I didn't bring it up in my post.
Flatlining baseline advantages through tiericide however, is somthing that can be done in the immediate future to bring much more balanced gameplay, and thus is our immediate focus. As it stands now attributes such as range, accuracy, and stability do increase with tier and this is a good thing. The reason Sharpshooter was problematic was that it allowed you to raise the range of a weapon upwards of 40%...where as it should be more like 5-10% between Militia and Prototype. I feel damage between weapon tiers should NOT increase at all. My reasoning for this is that the skills high SP characters train up "Operation, Sharpshooter, ect." which offers a benefit that helps to negate the disadvantages of a Damage Modifier. These skills paired with higher tiered weapons would allow a high SP character the ability to upgrade their damage for "free" because skills and weapons are negating the negative effects that that damage mod has.
While this would give higher SP characters a damage advantage, it only goes so far. Equipping a second damage mod would push those negative effects higher than skills and weapons could compensate for. While the user has the option to stack additional damage mods together, it would come at and increasingly high cost of accuracy, recoil reduction, blast radius, ect.
Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Hopefully CCP has better minds than those on the forums and finds an acceptable response to the problems of doing a tieracide in this game.
This sounds a little condescending, but whatever..
I understand what you're getting at, but this is actually very similar to how vehicles operate now. Skills should of course always be completely positive and always on, this encourages people to spend SP to gain bonuses. On that same thread, EVERY skill in the game should offer some sort of bonus other than "Unlocks _______ at Lvl 1, 3 and 5". Modules however should be paired with downsides in order to encourage diversity of fit and less stacking, particularly HP and Damage modules.
As for Dropsuits I agree that it is a difficult task. I would prefer to see more suit variants that tailor to different playstyles with proper bonuses to fit. This would allow people to skill into a suit which offers bonuses they like, but with modules that keep combat effectivness similar regardless of specialization. The suits and weapons themselves should not have negatives to equipping them, and secondary attributes should improve with tier. However, I disagree that weapon damage should increase, at least not by any significant margin. Weapon damage should be boosted with Proficiency Skill and Damage mods (with attached negative effects).
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1479
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Posted - 2014.01.14 19:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gemini Reynolds wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
DROPSUITS
Dropsuits of the same class should have identical Base HP, attributes, and Slot Configuration, regardless of tier. PG and CPU increase with tier.
I'm not going to dissect your entire post, but this part I disagree with. In order to create unique and interesting gameplay, you cannot have identical clones of the same suit repeated ad nauseum. This is not tiericide, this is watering down. Bonuses alone are not going to make each suit unique enough for a clever player to utilize, you need to vary the attributes of a suit along with their bonuses to make them more unique and interesting, crafting more playstyles for it. An example that constantly occurs to me would be a Ranger style suit. The bonuses would be for weapons..more ammo, better damage mod efficacy (off the top of my head), but in the attributes, bring the armor down a bit and lower the suit's scan profile to something in the neighborhood of 40dB...Now you've got something a clever player could use to create a stealthier assault (if they manage to catch the change in attributes) without 'advertising' it via Bonuses. That is simply an off-the-cuff example though. You can utilize all of the attributes of a given suit to do similar things. Creating one-dimensional 'everybody is the same' layouts is a very poor choice.
I think this is a failure of how I worded things. Im proposing that you keep the tier system of Standard, Advanced, and Prototype but the slot layout and HP is the same across those tiers. Higher tiered suits simply allow you to equip higher tier weapons and modules, thus avoiding heavy negative effects. Only suits of the same specialty (for example Assault) would have the same layout.
I do not think however the suits that are different roles should have the same layout. For example a Logistics and an Assault would totally different slot layouts.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1480
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Posted - 2014.01.14 19:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:
I didn't mean that Skills shouldn't be positive. I meant that Skilling to overcome a negative is really lame. Imagine if the basic Assault suit had 150 Shields with the skill that increases shields maxed and 100 with no points in that skill. But instead of saying "Adds 10% to your Maximum Shields", it said "Reduces the penalty on your Shields by 20%." Obviously the math wouldn't work like that, but I am just looking at it as a point. Skilling to overcome a negative (IE, "Armor Plate speed reduction reduced by 10%") is a lot less interesting than Skilling to gain a benefit (IE, "Speed increased by Y%.)
I am not disagreeing that tieracide should happen, only that it is going to be a royal pain in the butt to figure out a way that is fair and 'feels good to skill up and get better.'
Be well. -Joseph
I understand what you're getting at, and I agree that how its worded is paramount. For the armor plate example, you can't just "increase speed by ____" because that would apply regardless if you're wearing plates or not, and "Increases speed by ____ when wearing armor plates" sounds....clunky?
I think perhaps again, I worded it poorly. Skills themselves would flat out say "Increases _____ by ______" but the EFFECT is that it helps to negate negative effects from modules, but not flay out say it like that. So skills themselves are described as completely positive. Modules however should have a positive and negative attached, and that negative being reduced as you use higher tiered modules.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1480
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Posted - 2014.01.14 19:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Seems fair but you make every module a "rock, paper, scissor" balance so using modules to negate other modules just leads to a 0 net gain in effectiveness. Also your ferroscale plates such :< armor repair rate is low enough.
>_> You didn't read it all did you? I clearly state that negative effects never exceed the positive effects of the complimentary modules. That being said if you used 1 of each, you would get a net gain on all 3 attributes.
Pokey Dravon wrote: Negative effects should never exceed the benefit another module provide, therefor a mix of modules will produce a net increase in all attributes. This also discourages large stacks of the same module type and encourages variety in fitting.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1480
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Posted - 2014.01.14 19:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote: I read all of it... but I stand by what I said. Weather or not the net gain is zero as long as the module is subtracting from the positives the net gain will always be small. Although this can be compensated by simply stacking module X basic-enhanced, X basic-enhanced, Y-Complex. X being the wanted effect and Y being the compensator.
That's the whole point. You can't gain anything without giving up something up in return, so if you want a small net gain you can equip all 3 modules. Or say you're a Gallente suit with a Plasma Rifle, and you don't care about accuracy because you intent to only engage close range....well than you can put a damage modifier on and not worry about compensating for that loss in accuracy and stability.
BL4CKST4R wrote: He is asking for making every suit act differently rather than merging then in a soup of monotony. His suggestion means that when you go from Gallente Assault 1 to Gallente assault 3 you don't unlock a better suit but rather you unlock a Suit completely different. I do agree with a merging of suit slots across tiers but removing the tiers and making every level unlock something different is a much better idea. For example imagine at level 1 you get what is now the Prototype suit, armor tanked, at level 2 you unlock the same suit with the reverse layout and Shield tanked, at level 3 you unlock a speed tanked suit, level 4 a sneaky suit, etc.
So if you want the sneaky suit type that's level 5, and your buddy wants the frontal assault suit type that's level 1....you're just boned because your play-style differs? Each specialty should be its own tree but you need an incentive to level up your specialty.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1480
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Posted - 2014.01.14 20:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Would new players really stay if they start off buggered basically and simply grind to removes penalties?
And if this idea was as good as peoples like yourself believe them I'm sure it'd have been created with this as the norm. Iv read other threads about this yet yours makes it look like the game would be better suited for masochists.
And iv read the thread, I'm of the opinion that dust would be pure sht and more of a grind while simultaneously giving newbs no real motive to grind and making vets feel like they wasted their time.
Let me know if I'm wrong, I'll ignore any opinion used to try and de bunk mine, bias is bias.
Of course its a matter of opinion, I never said everyone would agree with me and even point out in my conclusion that I knew the argument you raise would come up.
I guess my personal viewpoint is "The other guy has Proto Armor Plates, that means hes going to be able to move faster than me in my Basic Armor Plates, I should skill into that"
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1481
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Posted - 2014.01.14 20:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote: Ah ok thanks, iv been wondering if theres something concrete I'm simply not understanding lol.
Nah that's just your passive aggressive gland secreting too much.
On a more mature note, lets see if we can find some middle ground. How would you feel in all modules had a downside as listed which decreased as you moved up tiers, but the benefit of the module also increased, but by a lesser amount than we have now? (In most cases)
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1481
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Posted - 2014.01.14 20:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Proposing a compromise is considered immature? Suddenly all the trolling on the forums makes sense!
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1482
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Posted - 2014.01.14 20:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Proposing a compromise is considered immature? Suddenly all the trolling on the forums makes sense! And admitting that I thought I might not quite be understanding tiericide is what?
Your response was snarky, I was not making an attempt to insult your understanding of what I was talking about. I apologize if it came across that way.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1494
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Posted - 2014.01.14 20:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:
Haha, I didn't mean to come across like that, I apologise as well. Can't really blame you as I come here to discuss the game and be a d!ck.
I'm all for this anyway, iws showed some 'pretty pictures' showing some nice benefits I'd never realised or been told before.
I saw IWS's post as well, and his setup for suits is far better than mine so I'm all for that.
I still want to find a way to encourage more diversity in how dropsuits are fit, because I feel currently only a handful of fitting philosophies are valid and I think it makes fitting really stale. My idea was that if you attach downsides to modules, you're encouraged to use different types to balance the positives and negatives in a way which suits your playstyle more.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1494
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Posted - 2014.01.14 20:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gemini, I think we're essentially getting at the same thing and I failed hardcore at getting that part across.
Iron Wolf Sabre has a post up right now describing essentially what you're saying and what I'm thinking, so I suggest you check it out if you haven't already.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1496
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Posted - 2014.01.14 20:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
low genius wrote:now that you've written quite a long summation i'm going to tell you that there are no tiers in dust yet. every suit is a tier one suit. when they start releasing tier two suits we'll talk about why tiericide will be important way down the line, but not now.
Don't you mean Tech I?
Regardless I know where you're going, and I agree. Don't get caught up in the wording though.
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1513
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Posted - 2014.01.15 04:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote: He is asking for making every suit act differently rather than merging then in a soup of monotony. His suggestion means that when you go from Gallente Assault 1 to Gallente assault 3 you don't unlock a better suit but rather you unlock a Suit completely different. I do agree with a merging of suit slots across tiers but removing the tiers and making every level unlock something different is a much better idea. For example imagine at level 1 you get what is now the Prototype suit, armor tanked, at level 2 you unlock the same suit with the reverse layout and Shield tanked, at level 3 you unlock a speed tanked suit, level 4 a sneaky suit, etc.
So if you want the sneaky suit type that's level 5, and your buddy wants the frontal assault suit type that's level 1....you're just boned because your play-style differs? Each specialty should be its own tree but you need an incentive to level up your specialty.
that wasn't a literal description of how the suits should be released per level but how the complexity of the suit, or how much the suit differs, as you level up. Basically every level you get a different version of the suit to fill a different play style. Even though the suit you want might be at level 5 the suit bonuses should be good enough as to you will want to get to level 5 regardless. [/quote]
If that's what you meant, then yes. The way you worded it was a bit misleading so I wanted to make sure we were on the same page
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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