DUST Search - Why the cloak inherently encourages camping, and how to fix that

Jake Bloodworth wrote:

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

For those not already aware, CCP revealed how the cloak will work here.

CCP Remnant wrote:

- The cloak field is a piece of equipment.
- When selected the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it.
- Once activated, it goes away and your weapon is raised. You can switch to other weapons/equipment while cloaked.
- You cloak. The amount of "shimmer" is increased as you move so standing still you will be nigh invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. When cloaked, you obviously have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it.
- Cloak can be deactivated by selecting it and pressing fire.
- Once deactivated or it runs out it will start to recharge.
- Firing a weapon while cloaked will rapidly deplete the cloak field (a single shot from a sniper rifle, for instance, will decloak you)
- You can only fit one cloak field at a time.

My issue with it is probably different than what most people are worried about. If your cloak "shimmers" and gives you away while you move, then it incentivizes camping, and penalizes activity. No one wants to see a horde of invisible campers one-shotting everyone with a pre-charged scrambler rifles. I think it should be the opposite; the cloak should be near perfect while running, less so while walking, and kind of obvious while standing still.
This would also work well with dealing with the "shooting while cloaked" issue. You can't shoot while running, so you will have to compromise your stealth by slowing down to be able to shoot, and give enemies a chance to see you before shooting them. Just to be safe, I would suggest not letting people hold their gun until the cloak is disabled.

Cloak should reward mobility, not camping.

This is what Dust needs. More players enforcing their idea of "proper" playstyles on others. Camping is a legitimate tactic that many people find fun and rewarding. Not everyone excels at the run and gun strafing that many of the top players employ. There are some who would rather leverage equipment to its maximum potential. Proper use of equipment should allow players to compete in lieu of twitch skill. If that means making use of a cloak to lie in wait for prey, so be it.

It will be a hilarious day in PC when your first orders go something like this. "Don't cap A, there is an AFK cloaky there."

Before you cry bias, you should know that I am 100% invested in Heavy. So equipment makes no matter to me. Unless it's the Core Focus tool peeing on me as I wade through my enemy's clone goo.

GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride."

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8022	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:22:00 - [1] - Quote For those not already aware, CCP revealed how the cloak will work here. CCP Remnant wrote: - The cloak field is a piece of equipment. - When selected the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it. - Once activated, it goes away and your weapon is raised. You can switch to other weapons/equipment while cloaked. - You cloak. The amount of "shimmer" is increased as you move so standing still you will be nigh invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. When cloaked, you obviously have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it. - Cloak can be deactivated by selecting it and pressing fire. - Once deactivated or it runs out it will start to recharge. - Firing a weapon while cloaked will rapidly deplete the cloak field (a single shot from a sniper rifle, for instance, will decloak you) - You can only fit one cloak field at a time. My issue with it is probably different than what most people are worried about. If your cloak "shimmers" and gives you away while you move, then it incentivizes camping, and penalizes activity. No one wants to see a horde of invisible campers one-shotting everyone with a pre-charged scrambler rifles. I think it should be the opposite; the cloak should be near perfect while running, less so while walking, and kind of obvious while standing still. This would also work well with dealing with the "shooting while cloaked" issue. You can't shoot while running, so you will have to compromise your stealth by slowing down to be able to shoot, and give enemies a chance to see you before shooting them. Just to be safe, I would suggest not letting people hold their gun until the cloak is disabled. Cloak should reward mobility, not camping. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2439	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:25:00 - [2] - Quote Or they shouldnt add in a cloak since its a ridiculous idea and makes balancing more of a pain than it needs to be Im not drunk, the planet just happens to be especially wobbly today.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8022	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:27:00 - [3] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Or they shouldnt add in a cloak since its a ridiculous idea and makes balancing more of a pain than it needs to be NO Just because something may be hard to balance does not mean they should avoid doing it. This kind of attitude would keep us from getting a lot of cool things, and ultimately keep Dust generic and boring. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Monty Mole Clone Shiv M 122	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:31:00 - [4] - Quote the fear over the cloak is amusing
Dirks Macker Enlightened Infantries Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 112	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:32:00 - [5] - Quote A fix for something nobody has played yet. Enlightened Indoctrination Blog
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 1590	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:32:00 - [6] - Quote Thought this was about camping at objective thread. (cause that's called defending) carry on. you left your hotpocket in the microwave again.... well... bloody hell.
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1314	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:34:00 - [7] - Quote Unless you are on a control point camping is almost entirely a futile endeavour on these map sizes. People may camp, but they will soon get bored when they realise they aren't playing in 75x75m maps. "We spent so much time huddling inside buildings with tanks circling outside like a swarm of sharks around bait"
Kaughst Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 172	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:35:00 - [8] - Quote I would think then that it would just make scouts who are already very mobile to begin with, breach a defended area very quickly and easily and enable easy kills and quick objective hacks. Someone who can run in undetected and get a easy shotgun kill, run off quickly, rinse and repeat is a bigger problem than a scout who is visible for most of the time when mobile and are less of a threat when they become visible and immobile from a decloaked field due to their low health. The current planned system is fine as it is now. Step 1: Take Districts Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit Cow for Kaughst
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8023	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:35:00 - [9] - Quote Monty Mole Clone wrote: the fear over the cloak is amusing I don't fear the cloak, I welcome it. I just have some concerns. Dirks Macker wrote: A fix for something nobody has played yet. I may not have played it, but I have played Killzone games with a very similar cloak system to what CCP is proposing. CCP explained how it works, so its not like I have no clue about how it will be like. If CCP did not want feedback, they would not have posted it for us to see. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Guildo Crow ZionTCD Public Disorder. 185	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:49:00 - [10] - Quote I never really understood why camping is such a dirty word... To me the whole situation reminds me of those idiot kids, that would call performing a throw back in Street fighter 2 cheating. Kind of silly.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4306	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:54:00 - [11] - Quote The shimmer happens even while you're standing still. It happens MORE when you move, not ONLY when you move. Scouts may get a reduction in the shimmer effect, making them more viable as mobile cloak users. Other suits have prohibitively high fitting costs on the cloak, making it unlikely for anyone cloaked to have high enough eHP to escape if their first shot isn't enough. Cloaking DOESN'T have infinite duration - shooting depletes it faster than usual - it still depletes over time. It will be viable for short-term camping, or for dashing between covered positions at long range (possibly closer range with Scouts). It WON'T be viable as a long-term camping option.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 4925	Posted - 2014.01.13 17:59:00 - [12] - Quote Dirks Macker wrote: A fix for something nobody has played yet. Cloaks are in many games and what the Wolf stated is absolutely true, adding a shimmer while moving penalizes mobility and encourages camping. Can you dispute that claim? ARC Commander CPM Info and Q&A - Status: Open
Jake Bloodworth molon labe. Public Disorder. 276	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:07:00 - [13] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: For those not already aware, CCP revealed how the cloak will work here. CCP Remnant wrote: - The cloak field is a piece of equipment. - When selected the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it. - Once activated, it goes away and your weapon is raised. You can switch to other weapons/equipment while cloaked. - You cloak. The amount of "shimmer" is increased as you move so standing still you will be nigh invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. When cloaked, you obviously have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it. - Cloak can be deactivated by selecting it and pressing fire. - Once deactivated or it runs out it will start to recharge. - Firing a weapon while cloaked will rapidly deplete the cloak field (a single shot from a sniper rifle, for instance, will decloak you) - You can only fit one cloak field at a time. My issue with it is probably different than what most people are worried about. If your cloak "shimmers" and gives you away while you move, then it incentivizes camping, and penalizes activity. No one wants to see a horde of invisible campers one-shotting everyone with a pre-charged scrambler rifles. I think it should be the opposite; the cloak should be near perfect while running, less so while walking, and kind of obvious while standing still. This would also work well with dealing with the "shooting while cloaked" issue. You can't shoot while running, so you will have to compromise your stealth by slowing down to be able to shoot, and give enemies a chance to see you before shooting them. Just to be safe, I would suggest not letting people hold their gun until the cloak is disabled. Cloak should reward mobility, not camping. This is what Dust needs. More players enforcing their idea of "proper" playstyles on others. Camping is a legitimate tactic that many people find fun and rewarding. Not everyone excels at the run and gun strafing that many of the top players employ. There are some who would rather leverage equipment to its maximum potential. Proper use of equipment should allow players to compete in lieu of twitch skill. If that means making use of a cloak to lie in wait for prey, so be it. Before you cry bias, you should know that I am 100% invested in Heavy. So equipment makes no matter to me. Unless it's the Core Focus tool peeing on me as I wade through my enemy's clone goo.
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 456	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:09:00 - [14] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: For those not already aware, CCP revealed how the cloak will work here. CCP Remnant wrote: - The cloak field is a piece of equipment. - When selected the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it. - Once activated, it goes away and your weapon is raised. You can switch to other weapons/equipment while cloaked. - You cloak. The amount of "shimmer" is increased as you move so standing still you will be nigh invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. When cloaked, you obviously have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it. - Cloak can be deactivated by selecting it and pressing fire. - Once deactivated or it runs out it will start to recharge. - Firing a weapon while cloaked will rapidly deplete the cloak field (a single shot from a sniper rifle, for instance, will decloak you) - You can only fit one cloak field at a time. My issue with it is probably different than what most people are worried about. If your cloak "shimmers" and gives you away while you move, then it incentivizes camping, and penalizes activity. No one wants to see a horde of invisible campers one-shotting everyone with a pre-charged scrambler rifles. I think it should be the opposite; the cloak should be near perfect while running, less so while walking, and kind of obvious while standing still. This would also work well with dealing with the "shooting while cloaked" issue. You can't shoot while running, so you will have to compromise your stealth by slowing down to be able to shoot, and give enemies a chance to see you before shooting them. Just to be safe, I would suggest not letting people hold their gun until the cloak is disabled. Cloak should reward mobility, not camping. it rewards mobility as the cloak will have a time limit and then you have to wait for the cooldown so sitting on the map trusting solely on your cloak may not the smartest idea
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2210	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:11:00 - [15] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Defending a point is camping and thats bad ppl, we must all run around like headless chickens and go for kills because thats whats its all about Intelligence is OP
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2563	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:13:00 - [16] - Quote First, "camping" is a loaded term. I prefer "defending an objective." Tactically, why is it a good and gentlemanly idea to raise a giant flag, declaring "The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!" and let your enemy know that if they attempt to take a position that you will kill them? Of course you don't want the enemy to know where you are when they are approaching your position. Second, there is no point in attempting to modify the behavior of the cloak until we know the run and recharge times of the device. It may be so short that you can only use it to quickly move from a hiding place and into backstabbing position. Scouts do fairly well in remaining hidden when defending a position. We'll see what new situations the cloaks will make possible. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 52	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:16:00 - [17] - Quote Guildo Crow wrote: I never really understood why camping is such a dirty word... To me the whole situation reminds me of those idiot kids, that would call performing a throw back in Street fighter 2 cheating. Kind of silly. The thing with camping is that it comes from the time of Counter-Strike and maybe earlier FPS. Back then, it was all about deathmatches. For objective-based games, there is nothing wrong about camping. But when you camp in a deathmatch game, you create stalemates and frustrating gameplay. Also, what the hell is the deal with thinking that cloak causes people to stand still? Have you ever tried sniping? Do you know how ridiculously boring it is to wait for the enemy to appear? No one will camp. People will search for enemies and then backstab them when they come near. Just like snipers do, just at shorter distance. So death from cloaked enemies is more likely, but avenging yourself is also much easier than with snipers.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1466	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:21:00 - [18] - Quote A lot of this depends entirely on the active duration of the cloak. If someone can only cloak for say 20 seconds at time and then have a 30 second cooldown on the module, I don't see camping being too much of an issue. Now if you can cloak for 60 seconds and cool down in 10...that's a problem. Another solution is of course not allowing firing while cloaked and have a re-calibration timer after de-cloaking before your weapon can be fired. This would be more in line with EVE cloaks. As for the moving while cloaked....while I understand what you're getting at It just doesn't sit quite right with me. I think the cloak concept needs to be fleshed out more to fill different playstyles of scout, especially considering how radically different some of their racial bonuses are. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8027	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:22:00 - [19] - Quote To those defefind camping, "camping is a legitimate tactic" and all, but do we really want that to be possible while invisible? There are lots of legitimate tactics that don't need a buff. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
commando biffle Shadow Company HQ 10	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:24:00 - [20] - Quote it seems that you forgot that we spawn in cloaked

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8028	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:26:00 - [21] - Quote commando biffle wrote: it seems that you forgot that we spawn in cloaked Yes I know we spawned cloaked for like 2 seconds, what is your point? how is it relevant to the upcoming cloak field equipment coming in patch 1.8? Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2563	Posted - 2014.01.13 18:32:00 - [22] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: To those defefind camping, "camping is a legitimate tactic" and all, but do we really want that to be possible while invisible? There are lots of legitimate tactics that don't need a buff. The active scanner is the defense against cloaking. You'll know where they are and your reticle will go red when pointed right at them if you don't just chuck at grenade at that spot. It'll probably be less crappy than that sniper bullet from 500 meters if you are prepared. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
THE GREY CARDINAL PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 361	Posted - 2014.01.13 19:02:00 - [23] - Quote As the content for DUST expands, more and more tactics will be brought to the game...and people are going to have to get used to that. Yeah some people will cloak and camp...watch your crosshairs as your sweep the area if you haven't already given it a going over with an scanner. Electronic Warfare GOD in the making
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4313	Posted - 2014.01.13 19:24:00 - [24] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: commando biffle wrote: it seems that you forgot that we spawn in cloaked Yes I know we spawned cloaked for like 2 seconds, what is your point? how is it relevant to the upcoming cloak field equipment coming in patch 1.8? You can commit suicide every time the cloak wears off and respawn in the same place to camp while cloaked. Obviously.
GET ATMESON Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 222	Posted - 2014.01.13 19:32:00 - [25] - Quote I said this a while ago. To stop people from camping the "cloaked" player should lose 1-5 shields for every second they are hidden. I know once this comes out I will be gone for a while until its fixeed Open Beta Fed 16th 2013. Scout fix + Heavy suits + Heavy guns = soonGäó
The Robot Devil molon labe. Public Disorder. 1545	Posted - 2014.01.13 19:41:00 - [26] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Or they shouldnt add in a cloak since its a ridiculous idea and makes balancing more of a pain than it needs to be NO Just because something may be hard to balance does not mean they should avoid doing it. This kind of attitude would keep us from getting a lot of cool things, and ultimately keep Dust generic and boring. Furthermore I find it ridiculous to not have cloaks considering they already exist in the technologically advanced setting of New Eden. I will agree to adding anything to the game, CCP has a history of introducing items that aren't perfect but still are fun and are eventually worked out and balanced. This game always needs more and rarely needs less. I would rather have a broken cloak than no cloak and broken things can be fixed but if it isn't there then we'll never know. GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson
The Robot Devil molon labe. Public Disorder. 1545	Posted - 2014.01.13 19:44:00 - [27] - Quote THE GREY CARDINAL wrote: As the content for DUST expands, more and more tactics will be brought to the game...and people are going to have to get used to that. Yeah some people will cloak and camp...watch your crosshairs as your sweep the area if you haven't already given it a going over with an scanner. Cloaky campers give splash damage weapons a new purpose, a round or two at the spot you want to take and it could help detect our invisible brethren. GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 1696	Posted - 2014.01.13 19:46:00 - [28] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Dirks Macker wrote: A fix for something nobody has played yet. Cloaks are in many games and what the Wolf stated is absolutely true, adding a shimmer while moving penalizes mobility and encourages camping. Can you dispute that claim? Wolf makes a good point. I do say Nova Knifers would love this change in plans. Borne Velvalor, bested my last signature with style. I present a new challenge.
The Robot Devil molon labe. Public Disorder. 1545	Posted - 2014.01.13 19:53:00 - [29] - Quote Jake Bloodworth wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: For those not already aware, CCP revealed how the cloak will work here. CCP Remnant wrote: - The cloak field is a piece of equipment. - When selected the cortex is raised and you press fire to activate it. - Once activated, it goes away and your weapon is raised. You can switch to other weapons/equipment while cloaked. - You cloak. The amount of "shimmer" is increased as you move so standing still you will be nigh invisible, but when moving you will be noticeable to an extent. When cloaked, you obviously have no chevron or health bars, but the enemy reticule will flash red if you run past it. - Cloak can be deactivated by selecting it and pressing fire. - Once deactivated or it runs out it will start to recharge. - Firing a weapon while cloaked will rapidly deplete the cloak field (a single shot from a sniper rifle, for instance, will decloak you) - You can only fit one cloak field at a time. My issue with it is probably different than what most people are worried about. If your cloak "shimmers" and gives you away while you move, then it incentivizes camping, and penalizes activity. No one wants to see a horde of invisible campers one-shotting everyone with a pre-charged scrambler rifles. I think it should be the opposite; the cloak should be near perfect while running, less so while walking, and kind of obvious while standing still. This would also work well with dealing with the "shooting while cloaked" issue. You can't shoot while running, so you will have to compromise your stealth by slowing down to be able to shoot, and give enemies a chance to see you before shooting them. Just to be safe, I would suggest not letting people hold their gun until the cloak is disabled. Cloak should reward mobility, not camping. This is what Dust needs. More players enforcing their idea of "proper" playstyles on others. Camping is a legitimate tactic that many people find fun and rewarding. Not everyone excels at the run and gun strafing that many of the top players employ. There are some who would rather leverage equipment to its maximum potential. Proper use of equipment should allow players to compete in lieu of twitch skill. If that means making use of a cloak to lie in wait for prey, so be it. It will be a hilarious day in PC when your first orders go something like this. "Don't cap A, there is an AFK cloaky there." Before you cry bias, you should know that I am 100% invested in Heavy. So equipment makes no matter to me. Unless it's the Core Focus tool peeing on me as I wade through my enemy's clone goo. Abuse the Lai Dai Flux toll. Less reps per second but I can rep two mercs at over 30m. The core is 10.5 and the Six Kin is only 21. I get the best results from the Lai Dai. GÇ£No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson


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