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Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
399
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
Basic experimentation rules are as follows:
1 - Identify all variables 2 - Change *one* variable, keeping all others constant 3 - Observe results, and repeat steps 2 and 3 until desired results are obtained.
CCP went and changed vehicles in a very major way. That is OK. CCP went and changed AV in a very major way.... this too is also OK.
However, doing both at the same time is a problem, because now we're stuck with an infantry game being not just taken over, but dominated, by vehicles.
What's worse, the change to AV makes it significantly more difficult to kill the vehicles... essentially reducing the risk from the risk/reward equation and tragically unbalancing said equation.
CCP.... I like the idea of reducing AV damage. I also like the concept of the vehicle fixes you made. Doing both at the same time was just stupid.
Sorry, but there really is no other way to describe it. It was dumb... and that's OK. Everyone has a brain fart every now and then.
You have monthly iterations, and significantly lower barriers to making changes than you would if you followed a twice-annual release schedule. Please use this to your advantage.
I know you will re-fix and re-balance the vehicle/AV thing... but I have to hope that you will adopt a more gradual, scientifically-based process for changes (as detailed above) in future releases.
-Nightbird
EVE: Bitter-vet, born 2005
DUST: Closed-beta vet: Always hopeful, frequently disappointed.
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Mossellia Delt
Militaires Sans Jeux
764
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Im finding AV vs Vehicles very balanced right now.
And im on the ground with the AV.
Now it takes some time to kill vehicles while not being too hard.
Parody Dust 514 Lyrics
Vote for Delt
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Maximus Stryker
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
726
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
agree.
A major change to Vehicle or AV is fine, but not BOTH simultaneously
Swarms need a range buff, maybe 300m
Faction Channels for FW Staging
PIE Ground Control | Caldari Hierarchy | Turalyon | Chosen Matari
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
1277
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
I was about to rage about why people think this game was suppose to 100% accurate to RL but then you wrote something entirely different from what I thought.
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
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Monkey MAC
Lost Millennium
1240
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nightbird Aeon wrote:Basic experimentation rules are as follows:
1 - Identify all variables 2 - Change *one* variable, keeping all others constant 3 - Observe results, and repeat steps 2 and 3 until desired results are obtained.
CCP went and changed vehicles in a very major way. That is OK. CCP went and changed AV in a very major way.... this too is also OK.
However, doing both at the same time is a problem, because now we're stuck with an infantry game being not just taken over, but dominated, by vehicles.
What's worse, the change to AV makes it significantly more difficult to kill the vehicles... essentially reducing the risk from the risk/reward equation and tragically unbalancing said equation.
CCP.... I like the idea of reducing AV damage. I also like the concept of the vehicle fixes you made. Doing both at the same time was just stupid.
Sorry, but there really is no other way to describe it. It was dumb... and that's OK. Everyone has a brain fart every now and then.
You have monthly iterations, and significantly lower barriers to making changes than you would if you followed a twice-annual release schedule. Please use this to your advantage.
I know you will re-fix and re-balance the vehicle/AV thing... but I have to hope that you will adopt a more gradual, scientifically-based process for changes (as detailed above) in future releases.
-Nightbird
Truth be told, the tanks are better than .6 It is enjoyable seeing more tanks, gives a sense of 'fighting for something worth winning' when I see tanks and infantry go at it with hammer and tongs!
But like you said and in good old CCP style, too much at the same time! They should have made the vehicle changes, observed the trends, readjusted in a month!
Now they aremat an impasse, because no one really has definitive way to fix it, you can't buff AV or nerf tanks again without going over a tipping point! They are gonna either end up too weak (again), or even more god mode than they are now!
Tanks 514
I told you, I bloody well told you.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
8949
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breach forge guns are the only infantry AV that tend to kill my Incubus, other than that it's RDVs and redline railguns for the most part.
Vids / O7
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Smooth Assassin
Stardust incorporation
473
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Railgun tanks are the best AV and i don't know why not many people is using em, you can back up if being shot and you can take down tanks, infantry and aircraft at a safe distant.
Assassination is my thing.
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Piraten Hovnoret
No Tax Scrubs
127
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Smooth Assassin wrote:Railgun tanks are the best AV and i don't know why not many people is using em, you can back up if being shot and you can take down tanks, infantry and aircraft at a safe distant.
And the fun in siting in the redline railgun sniping is ? |
George Moros
Area 514
218
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Posted - 2013.12.16 18:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nightbird Aeon wrote: CCP went and changed vehicles in a very major way. That is OK. CCP went and changed AV in a very major way.... this too is also OK.
However, doing both at the same time is a problem, because now we're stuck with an infantry game being not just taken over, but dominated, by vehicles.
I'll try to avoid discussing too much over the extent CCP is following the scientific method, but CCP's approach in this matter isn't as "unscientific" as you portray it. If they changed only vehicles, then waited to see how they handle against 1.6 AV weapons, then apply a balancing pass to vehicles on that iteration, and after all that change AV weapons, they would have to do another balancing pass afterwards. This way, they will (hopefully) shorten the time it takes to put the entire thing to proper balance. On the other hand, their approach is also coupled with more risk of getting to a position where the imbalance is more acute then otherwise - which is exactly what's happening right now.
Pulvereus ergo queritor.
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2545
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Posted - 2013.12.16 19:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
George Moros wrote:Nightbird Aeon wrote: CCP went and changed vehicles in a very major way. That is OK. CCP went and changed AV in a very major way.... this too is also OK.
However, doing both at the same time is a problem, because now we're stuck with an infantry game being not just taken over, but dominated, by vehicles.
I'll try to avoid discussing too much over the extent CCP is following the scientific method, but CCP's approach in this matter isn't as "unscientific" as you portray it. If they changed only vehicles, then waited to see how they handle against 1.6 AV weapons, then apply a balancing pass to vehicles on that iteration, and after all that change AV weapons, they would have to do another balancing pass afterwards. This way, they will (hopefully) shorten the time it takes to put the entire thing to proper balance. On the other hand, their approach is also coupled with more risk of getting to a position where the imbalance is more acute then otherwise - which is exactly what's happening right now.
I have to agree in this case where CCP completely altered the entite philosophy of vehicles. They had to take a stab at balancing AV against the new paradigm to start things off. Basically consider 1.7 an entirely new game.
From here on they do need to make one change at a time. Even better would be to run a test server where they could run many separate tests in the same timeframe. They could change multiple variables if they wanted to run an ANOVA design which would be best as it takes into account second and third order interactions. |
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Nightbird Aeon
Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN.
404
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Posted - 2013.12.16 19:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Skihids wrote:George Moros wrote:Nightbird Aeon wrote: CCP went and changed vehicles in a very major way. That is OK. CCP went and changed AV in a very major way.... this too is also OK.
However, doing both at the same time is a problem, because now we're stuck with an infantry game being not just taken over, but dominated, by vehicles.
I'll try to avoid discussing too much over the extent CCP is following the scientific method, but CCP's approach in this matter isn't as "unscientific" as you portray it. If they changed only vehicles, then waited to see how they handle against 1.6 AV weapons, then apply a balancing pass to vehicles on that iteration, and after all that change AV weapons, they would have to do another balancing pass afterwards. This way, they will (hopefully) shorten the time it takes to put the entire thing to proper balance. On the other hand, their approach is also coupled with more risk of getting to a position where the imbalance is more acute then otherwise - which is exactly what's happening right now. I have to agree in this case where CCP completely altered the entite philosophy of vehicles. They had to take a stab at balancing AV against the new paradigm to start things off. Basically consider 1.7 an entirely new game. From here on they do need to make one change at a time. Even better would be to run a test server where they could run many separate tests in the same timeframe. They could change multiple variables if they wanted to run an ANOVA design which would be best as it takes into account second and third order interactions.
Do you really think they're running ANOVA for this?
Really?
EVE: Bitter-vet, born 2005
DUST: Closed-beta vet: Always hopeful, frequently disappointed.
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Luk Manag
of Terror TRE GAFFEL
231
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Posted - 2013.12.16 20:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
We are getting better at fighting tanks.
My Swarm launcher hasn't killed anything in a while, but seems to scare the tanks and encourage the dropships to fly out of range - but not useful for killing. Ok.
My proximity mines are worse than my swarm launcher. I can lay out a lot of proximity mines - 750 damage each (at every level). I watched a Sica eat 4 or 5, then boost his sheild, then he just rolled over the rest of them, another 3 or 4 - he dodged a few, and rolled off with half shields. That was lame.
My successful tank-killing fit - a logi with 3 nanohives + Lai Dia Packed AV grenades. This does more than scare the tanks if I can find some good cover, set up a couple nanohives, and then chuck a steady stream of grenades. This works, but it's not very fun.
Tank vs Tank would be more fun, but most of the time it comes down to sniping or running away - or, if you're not set up to fight other tanks (Blasters), you end up in an odd sort of stalemate - with both tanks unable to defeat the reps of their opponent. Then you have to consider jumping out of your tank to chuck some extra AV grenades into the mix - it can work, but it can fail as well.
By far, the LAV loaded with REs is the most entertaining way to kill a tank these days.
There will be bullets. ACR+SMG
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