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Severus Smith
Caldari State
441
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Posted - 2013.12.06 16:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
Suits and modules are very messed up in DUST. Right now, having a Prototype suit with Complex modules gives you a 300% increase in power and survivability over someone in a Standard suit with Standard modules. Add on skills and this increases to almost 400%.
Suits
Suits, in my opinion, are the biggest problem. They should not be tiered. Right now a Prototype suit can fit almost 3x more modules than a Standard suit. That means that, even if both suits fit Standard modules, a Prototype suit has a 200% increase in fitted stats over a Standard suit. Stacking penalties help alleviate some of this but the fact sill remains that a Prototype suit can put out more damage, with a higher tank, and more flexibility than a Standard suit. If all modules were the same this wouldn't be too much of a problem, but they aren't.
Modules
Modules are the next big problem. The differences in stats between Standard and Complex is huge on some modules (and minuscule on others). A Complex Shield Extender is 4x as powerful as a Standard Shield Extender. A Complex Damage Mod is 3.33x more powerful than a Standard Damage Mod. These are huge differences!
Put it all together and what do you got..?
Module disparity is further multiplied by the fact that Prototype suits can hold 3x more modules which makes a pure Prototype suit beastly when compared to a pure Standard suit. Lets look at a famous example:
Standard Gallente Logistics
90 / 350 HP
0H / 2L / 3E
2x Standard Armor Plate: +170 Armor
Assault Rifle @ 425 DPS
Prototype Gallente Logistics
90 / 855 HP
3H / 5L / 4E
3x Complex Damage Mods: +28% damage (after DR)
5x Complex Armor Plates: + 675 Armor
Duvolle Assault Rifle @ 598.4 DPS
That's an Armor HP increase of 140%, a DPS increase of 40%, and an extra Equipment slot to boot for Prototype. Of course the Prototype suit is going to decimate the Standard suit. Skill is a big factor, but the numbers don't lie. The Prototype player will survive 2.2 seconds of fire from the Standard player. While the Standard player will die in 0.73 seconds to the Prototype player. That's a 300% difference. Add on level V in all skills to both suits and the difference in power between Prototype and Standard becomes almost 400%.
Tiericide = Solution
Suits shouldn't be tiered. They had it in EVE Online and removed it because it was bad. A good first step is to remove the idea of "Standard", "Advanced" and "Prototype" from suits, give them cool racial names and make them all "Tech 1" suits. Give them the slot layout of Prototype (because people like having slots to fit things) and have the suit skills increase specific suit bonuses. Then you have the following:
Tinker "Logistics" (Tech 1 Gallente Medium)
90 / 605 HP
3H / 5L / 4E
3x Standard Damage Mods: +8% damage (after DR)
5x Standard Armor Plate: +425 Armor
Assault Rifle @ 459 DPS
Tinker "Logistics" (Tech 1 Gallente Medium)
90 / 855 HP
3H / 5L / 4E
3x Complex Damage Mods: +28% damage (after DR)
5x Complex Armor Plates: + 675 Armor
Duvolle Assault Rifle @ 598.4 DPS
And now that's an Armor difference of 40% and a DPS difference of 30%. The prototype player will survive 2.0 seconds of fire from the Standard player. While the Standard player will survive 1.16 seconds of fire for a 70% difference in survivability. Much better for Standard players when facing off against Prototype players. There is still a disadvantage, but it's not a 300% disadvantage.
Then, eventually, CCP will have to release "Tech 2" suits that have more slots and bonuses that are specialized to a specific role. And those suits should destroy a Tech 1 suit in that specialization. |
Severus Smith
Caldari State
441
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 16:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Samoset Detrium wrote:Severus Smith wrote:
Then, eventually, CCP will have to release "Tech 2" suits that have more slots and bonuses that are specialized to a specific role. And those suits should destroy a Tech 1 suit in that specialization.
If that does manage to happen, all that will come out of it is negating the work you just put in to outdate "Tiers". When you introduce your "Tech - 2", that will create a Tier in itself and now you have the same problem that you did before, just under a different title. Im not trying to be rude, im just pointing this flaw out bud. Never any offense except for Capital Punishment, just to troll on the Capital. Tech 1 vs Tech 2 is a well known concept in EVE Online. How it works is that a Tech 1 ship is generalized (in that it can do many different things) and a Tech 2 ships is specialized (in that it is really good at one specific thing, but horrible at everything else). Plus Tech 2 ships cost 100x more than Tech 1 ships so they are only used in situations where the cost is justified.
An example for DUST would be an Tech 1 Assault vs a Tech 2 Assault.
Templar (Tech 1 Amarr Medium)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Amarr Medium Frame skill bonus:
3% increased light weapon damage per level
5% reduction in weapon heat buildup per level
High: 1
Low: 4
Equipment: 1
Weapons: Light / Sidearm
Grenades: 1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
vs
Justicar (Tech 2 Amarr Medium Assault Dropsuit)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Amarr Medium Frame skill bonus:
3% increased light weapon damage per level
5% reduction in weapon heat buildup per level
Assault Dropsuit skill bonus:
5% increased armor plate efficacy per level
10% reduction to armor plate speed penalty per level
Role Bonus:
5% increased laser weapon RoF per level
High: 2
Low:4
Equipment:0
Weapons:Light
Grenades:1
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
As you can see the Templar (Tech 1) is very generalized. It has a sidearm, can carry equipment and can run with a vast set of weapon and module types if desired. It can use equipment to rearm itself or repair allies, and its sidearm offers it additional versatility (since it is generalized).
In contrast the Justicar (Tech 2) is specialized. It has no equipment and no sidearm. And while it's 5% RoF bonus per level makes it a killing machine (its specialization) but makes it run out of ammunition faster. And since it has no ability to rearm itself it will need support from other suits to survive on the battlefield (since it is specialized). |
Severus Smith
Caldari State
442
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 17:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:All your math aside, how do the rest of the suits stack up? Yes you can have twice the HP with a Gallente Proto Logi but do you have twice the movement as well? Or are you basically a sitting target? BTW I did test the Gallente Logi tankability at proto level before reading this using a Proto Gk.0 Logi suit and found it hilarious when confronted with an enemy who just wouldn't give up. Props to the guy because after suiciding by way of Mass Driver 3 times he finally decided to switch to something other than explosive damage and pulled out his SMG but it is still laughable. I hadn't killed anyone at all yet and still he seemed determined to take me on. He brandished his weapons and although I could tank him there was no escaping him. I was a sitting duck. After he killed my rep hives which I was powerless to stop (sniper fit) he finished me off with ease. Yes, I picked the GalLogi because it is one of the worst. But the point still remains. Prototype suits are capable of fitting 2x - 3x more modules than Standard suits. And those Complex modules themselves are 2x - 3x better than Standard modules. This multiplication effect leads to Prototype suits being 4x - 9x better than Standards because they can fit far more modules that are far more powerful.
To fix this, and mimic EVE (which this game is tied to), I and many others are proposing removing tiers for suits so that it is more even and the big changes in power and due to skills and modules. And eventually, Tech 2 specialized suits. (See above post).
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Severus Smith
Caldari State
442
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 17:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:To get to the Proto level I spend 2-3x more SP. Hard earned SP mind you. Also hard eearned in Eve...this proposal is like a fine wine, the cheap stuff will get you drunk, the expensive stuff will get you drunk, you just want to class it up a bit. If you haven't already realized, the Standard level is T1, advanced T2, and Proto is T3 to use Eve terms. I have to politely disagree.
Our modules are currently Tech 1. From Militia to Prototype. There are "Prototype" Tech 1 modules in EVE, that is what the named ones are and they are expensive (sometimes more expensive than the same Tech 2 module). CCP has stated that Tech 2 modules will come at some point in DUST, but not yet.
And yes, I agree that you spent 2x - 3x more SP to get to Prototype. And that is where suit bonuses come in. If you look at my above post you'll see that your level V in Amarr Medium suits gets you +15% damage and 25% reduced heat buildup while as a new players with level I in Amarr Medium suits gets them +3% damage and 5% reduced heat buildup.
You have +12% damage and 20% less heat buildup over that new player as your reward for skilling to level V. You shouldn't also get 3 more high slots, 2 more low slots, 1 more equipment slot and in some cases, a sidearm. That is where it gets unbalanced.
Remove tiers, implement good skill bonuses on suits, and balance will be better for everyone. |
Severus Smith
Caldari State
446
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 18:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Samoset Detrium wrote:I don't completely disagree with the idea, As far as the skill bonusus only that could be something I would not mind. again though, if your trying to remove "Tiers" period, then you cant have a "Tech - 1" And a "Tech - 2" cause that's just another tier of equipment in itself that specializes in a specific role. It doesn't have to suck at all of the other roles either, because of the different options we can put on a suit, you could easily have a balance of sorts. It still wont be the best at everything, but when you factor in the skill bonuses for other areas such as Armor, Shield, and efficiency of modules, plus proficiency in weapons, it more than evens out the playing field in your favor. When I think Tech levels I think of EVE. A great example is Frigates. Lets look at the Gallente Atron (Tech 1 Frigate) vs the Ares (Tech 2 Interceptor).
The Atron is a general Frigate. It can be fitted with guns and damage mods to maximize DPS, or Warp Scramblers for tackling, or a combination. It can have Afterburners, or a Micro Warp Drive or ignore speed and fit a heavier Armor tank. It can be fitted in a myriad of ways that make it an Ambusher, Brawler, Tackler, Inta-Tackler, Kiter or many other things. As such, it is a generalist ship. You can buy an Atron for roughly 440,000 ISK in Jita (major EVE trade hub).
It's Tech 2 cousin, the Ares is an Interceptor. It is built for speed and tackling. It gets huge bonuses to speed and Warp Scrambler range allowing it to close in fast on an unsuspecting target and Tackle it before the target knows what's hit them. It is immune to most Warp Canceling effects and can get in and out of most areas so fast that you can't even hit it. But if you do hit it, you'll find it's made of tissue paper. Trying to tank an Ares will get you laughed at. Trying to 1v1 PVP with it would most likely end with you losing a lot of ISK. You don't fight in an Ares, you Tackle with it. It is amazing at that role, and not much else. You can buy an Ares for roughly 20,000,000 ISK in Jita.
That is the difference I mean when I say Tech 1 vs Tech 2. Specialization and price. So for a DUST analog again look at Assaults.
A Tech 1 Assault suit would have the ability to wield a sidearm, use equipment, and fit many different combat roles such as Brawler, Skirmisher, Ambusher, Kiter, and Marksman. It would have general bonuses to everything. Like +3% damage with hybrid weapons. That could be Shotguns, Sniper Rifles, Assault Rifles, etc. A Tech 1 suit would probably cost you 10,000 - 25,000 ISK per suit.
A Tech 2 Assault would pick one of the combat roles and specialize in it. So a Tech 2 Assault (Marksman) suit would have huge range bonuses. A Tech 2 Assault (Brawler) would have huge Armor plate / repair bonuses. They wouldn't have equipment, or a sidearm. Those are tools for generalists. They would be built for one purpose and be sub par at the others. A Tech 2 suit would probably cost you 500,000 - 1,250,000 ISK per suit.
So yes, I guess you are right that there are still "Tiers" except that no one in their right mind is going to run around continually Pub stomping in a suit that costs them 1.25 million itself to lose. They're use would be in FW and (more likely) null sec PC. Sure, the random squad from Nyan Sain may run around to get some jollies but that would be rare. One Orbital and the 6 of them are out over 10 million ISK in suits (not including modules). Not worth it in Pubs, where most of the suit scaling imbalances are. |
Severus Smith
Caldari State
446
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 19:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Tech 1 and tech 2 are not tiers. Tiers mean one is better than the other. A tech 2 ship is not better than a tech 1 ship. It is just more specialized. For instance, a tech 2 assault ship has more damage and tank than tech 1, but less speed and less ewar capabilities. A tech 2 interceptor is faster and more maneuverable than a tech 1 ship, but the tech 1 ship can deal more damage and tank more.
For example, let's look at the Purifier, which branches into the Retribution and the Vengeance. The Vengeance has more slots for ewar, but less slots for damage mods and armor mods, and deals less damage. The Retribution has more weapon slots, and more slots for fitting damage and armor mods, but almost no ability to fit ewar. Therefore, the two ships rely on each other, each of their weaknesses countered by the strength of the other.
The OP has a good idea. I like how the assault has no equipment slot. Thats how the balance is had. It must rely on the logi for ammo and repairs. Likewise, the logo cannot deal as much damage, and therefore relies on the assault to kill its enemies. This exactly. You summed up what I was trying to say in a third of the words.
Tech 1 = Generalist
Tech 2 = Specialist |
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