DUST Search - Protostomping

Lurchasaurus wrote:

Toby Flenderson wrote:

Lurchasaurus wrote:

This game operates on Risk vs. Reward.

If one team pulls out 5 tanks and rolls the other team, tanks aren't op, they simply invested way more into winning and risked a lot more in the process.

If the other team does not risk an equivalent amount of isk, they should not have a leg to stand on.

If the other team simply is unable to bring out as many toys, that is poor matchmaking.

In either situation, it is not the fault of the person using their better gear.

edit: and i play solo plenty and have seen prot gear vs. noob gear in all areas of the game, at all points of the game. It used to be proto suits had more hp and stuff than noob suits, but we dont even have that anymore.

I agree with the risk vs. reward observation. The only thing that I would add is that matchmaking will most likely never include ISK in the calculations. I have a lot of proto gear but I simply can't run it constantly like some players in a lot of bigger corps because I don't have the funds to do it. If this is a risk vs. reward then think of it as a "percentage risk" vs. "percentage reward"GÇª

What I mean is that if I have 10m ISK and waste 1m pulling out protos in a pub match then I lose 10% of my total funds. If I'm fighting someone with 100m ISK then they're only risking 1% equivalently. While the ISK reward is scaled accordingly, the SP isn't. In other words, I might risk 10% of my total ISK for 5,000 SP and the victory while the other would be risking 1% of their total ISK. At this rate, the person with the larger wallet could "bet their protos" 10 games in a row before they would feel the same "risk" that I would. Basically we have a situation where 1m ISK is a ridiculously high price to pay to just be on the same playing field as the enemy for some players while it's chump change for others.

I'm not trying to say you're one of these people or that there's even anything wrong with spending ISK as one sees fit. I'm just adding this little observation because I don't think the risk some of the big corps take is the same as a solo merc or even someone like me who just plays with his friends in a small corp with less money.

it has nothing to do with how much money one has. good players will have money because they can use proto without dying. the percentage of their wallet that they risk is irrelevant. I can call out my 2.5 mil isk tank and regardless of whether i have 1 isk or 100 mil isk, its still a 2.5 mil isk investment into the match and affects the war effort as such.


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Toby Flenderson research lab 124	Posted - 2013.12.04 02:40:00 - [1] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: This game operates on Risk vs. Reward. If one team pulls out 5 tanks and rolls the other team, tanks aren't op, they simply invested way more into winning and risked a lot more in the process. If the other team does not risk an equivalent amount of isk, they should not have a leg to stand on. If the other team simply is unable to bring out as many toys, that is poor matchmaking. In either situation, it is not the fault of the person using their better gear. edit: and i play solo plenty and have seen prot gear vs. noob gear in all areas of the game, at all points of the game. It used to be proto suits had more hp and stuff than noob suits, but we dont even have that anymore. I agree with the risk vs. reward observation. The only thing that I would add is that matchmaking will most likely never include ISK in the calculations. I have a lot of proto gear but I simply can't run it constantly like some players in a lot of bigger corps because I don't have the funds to do it. If this is a risk vs. reward then think of it as a "percentage risk" vs. "percentage reward"GÇª What I mean is that if I have 10m ISK and waste 1m pulling out protos in a pub match then I lose 10% of my total funds. If I'm fighting someone with 100m ISK then they're only risking 1% equivalently. While the ISK reward is scaled accordingly, the SP isn't. In other words, I might risk 10% of my total ISK for 5,000 SP and the victory while the other would be risking 1% of their total ISK. At this rate, the person with the larger wallet could "bet their protos" 10 games in a row before they would feel the same "risk" that I would. Basically we have a situation where 1m ISK is a ridiculously high price to pay to just be on the same playing field as the enemy for some players while it's chump change for others. I'm not trying to say you're one of these people or that there's even anything wrong with spending ISK as one sees fit. I'm just adding this little observation because I don't think the risk some of the big corps take is the same as a solo merc or even someone like me who just plays with his friends in a small corp with less money.
Toby Flenderson research lab 124	Posted - 2013.12.04 02:56:00 - [2] - Quote You can't blame a blueberry for giving up. It's the temporary "I'll just sit in the redline sniping" or "hang out in the MCC" solutions that make finishing a match bearable for most new players. I would much rather them AFK then try for 15 minutes and die 20 times. At least AFKing gives you some SP and doesn't cost them valuable ISK. It also gives them a break from all of the things that pressure them to quit completely. PS: Before anyone starts with the "well all us vets had to go through it when we first started", think about the differences in the experiences people have had. At this point in the game the passive SP most vets have just from existing seems like a pipe dream to someone just starting out. They would have to play for months just to get up to where existing got most of us, not to mention all of the time spent playing since we started. The ratio of people with proto available to proto not available is surely much higher because of this fact alone. Vets are specced into all of their core upgrades, weapon proficiency, first/second proto suit, etc. Anyone with 10-15m SP must start to get that feeling of "well I've got most everything to lvl 3-5 that I need, might as well finish off the core/proficiencies". These are the players that newbs are going up against in pub matches. It's a mismatch now even when they use BPO suits/weapons because of all of the core skills. Throwing proto gear on top of that just makes it hell for the new players. I'm not trying to say it's wrong to use what you have, I'm just saying that it seems like many of the people who complain about the QQing of protostomping forget that the experience for new players only gets worse as the months go by. TL;DR: Today's blueberries have it harder than any vets ever did when they were grinding their way to greatness. You can't rightfully judge them for giving up.
Toby Flenderson research lab 124	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:11:00 - [3] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: This game operates on Risk vs. Reward. If one team pulls out 5 tanks and rolls the other team, tanks aren't op, they simply invested way more into winning and risked a lot more in the process. If the other team does not risk an equivalent amount of isk, they should not have a leg to stand on. If the other team simply is unable to bring out as many toys, that is poor matchmaking. In either situation, it is not the fault of the person using their better gear. edit: and i play solo plenty and have seen prot gear vs. noob gear in all areas of the game, at all points of the game. It used to be proto suits had more hp and stuff than noob suits, but we dont even have that anymore. I agree with the risk vs. reward observation. The only thing that I would add is that matchmaking will most likely never include ISK in the calculations. I have a lot of proto gear but I simply can't run it constantly like some players in a lot of bigger corps because I don't have the funds to do it. If this is a risk vs. reward then think of it as a "percentage risk" vs. "percentage reward"GÇª What I mean is that if I have 10m ISK and waste 1m pulling out protos in a pub match then I lose 10% of my total funds. If I'm fighting someone with 100m ISK then they're only risking 1% equivalently. While the ISK reward is scaled accordingly, the SP isn't. In other words, I might risk 10% of my total ISK for 5,000 SP and the victory while the other would be risking 1% of their total ISK. At this rate, the person with the larger wallet could "bet their protos" 10 games in a row before they would feel the same "risk" that I would. Basically we have a situation where 1m ISK is a ridiculously high price to pay to just be on the same playing field as the enemy for some players while it's chump change for others. I'm not trying to say you're one of these people or that there's even anything wrong with spending ISK as one sees fit. I'm just adding this little observation because I don't think the risk some of the big corps take is the same as a solo merc or even someone like me who just plays with his friends in a small corp with less money. it has nothing to do with how much money one has. good players will have money because they can use proto without dying. the percentage of their wallet that they risk is irrelevant. I can call out my 2.5 mil isk tank and regardless of whether i have 1 isk or 100 mil isk, its still a 2.5 mil isk investment into the match and affects the war effort as such. I understand it's the same amount of ISK, but you're missing my point. I'm saying there's a difference in risk that the player actually feels. This is what I don't believe will ever be considered in the matchmaking calculations. Take this analogyGÇª The owner of Papa Johns decides to open a new pizzeria in a remote town in Wyoming. It costs him $X to open/maintain this new pizzeria for 5 years and he knows that there is a chance it might go out of business due to the location. Meanwhile, a young entrepreneur in the town could use his $X dollars in life savings to open a pizzeria in the same town. Now while they both would "risk" the same $X investment, they don't feel the same financial strain. The owner of Papa Johns could lose his $X and just try again 20 more times in random places without ever feeling like he's lost as much as the entrepreneur from the town if he lost his investment. Maybe even a better analogy would be going "all in" in a game of poker. A player with $1,000 going all in against a player with $10,000 would be taking the largest risk you could take in the game. It could be argued that the person with the larger stack would be stupid not to call regardless of his cards since he can take a $1,000 hit easy. Back to Dust, someone with 100m ISK could shell out a few tanks no problem while it could wipe out a new player's total ISK in one game. Clearly one person is feeling more "risk" than the other and ignoring that would be ignorant. PS: I know that everyone has free suits in dust so they can never truly go "all in" but in a proto stomping match that we're describing I'd say it's pretty close as far as the game "ending" when you resort to using free suits against protos.
Toby Flenderson research lab 124	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:14:00 - [4] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I don't see how people do nothing but proto squad. I've run around with a squad full of protos, using my proto gear, and it's just boring. I mean, PC would be a different story since everyone's got it, but how you guys run proto 23/7 will never make sense to me, the game is way too easy as is I run proto because my tank dies in one shot if i dont. I run proto because i cant fit a second weapon with my 100 cpu plasma cannon if i dont. i run proto because i earned it and can field it without going negative. "Congratulations! You just purchased a brand new Ferrari! YAY!! Now, go race in this Prius because one of the other guys doesn't have one." Haha so if you had a Ferrari you'd want to race a Prius?
Toby Flenderson research lab 124	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:22:00 - [5] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: I understand it's the same amount of ISK, but you're missing my point. I'm saying there's a difference in risk that the player actually feels. This is what I don't believe will ever be considered in the matchmaking calculations. Take this analogyGÇª The owner of Papa Johns decides to open a new pizzeria in a remote town in Wyoming. It costs him $X to open/maintain this new pizzeria for 5 years and he knows that there is a chance it might go out of business due to the location. Meanwhile, a young entrepreneur in the town could use his $X dollars in life savings to open a pizzeria in the same town. Now while they both would "risk" the same $X investment, they don't feel the same financial strain. The owner of Papa Johns could lose his $X and just try again 20 more times in random places without ever feeling like he's lost as much as the entrepreneur from the town if he lost his investment. Maybe even a better analogy would be going "all in" in a game of poker. A player with $1,000 going all in against a player with $10,000 would be taking the largest risk you could take in the game. It could be argued that the person with the larger stack would be stupid not to call regardless of his cards since he can take a $1,000 hit easy. Back to Dust, someone with 100m ISK could shell out a few tanks no problem while it could wipe out a new player's total ISK in one game. Clearly one person is feeling more "risk" than the other and ignoring that would be ignorant. PS: I know that everyone has free suits in dust so they can never truly go "all in" but in a proto stomping match that we're describing I'd say it's pretty close as far as the game "ending" when you resort to using free suits against protos. theres a saying in EVE....dont fly what you cant afford to lose. no one cares how badly you want a titan, you have to work for it and earn it and until you do, you have to fight others who have them. its how New Eden works. This is the game you play. If you dont have enough money, earn some. If you cant kill a proto suit with a non proto gun, get friends. Teamwork is OP. If you cant do that, im sorry, your all out of options. Go back to my first post. I'm not saying it's wrong and that people can't slap people around with wads of ISK because they can. I'm saying that oversimplifying the situation as "risk vs. reward" is only valid if everyone has the same amount of money. This is not the case so you need to mention that a 1m ISK loss is a much larger fraction and thus a much larger risk to someone with 10m ISK rather than 100m ISK. Good for you if you can make money running proto, you must be very proud of yourself. I don't care though, as it doesn't mean anything with regard to what I'm saying. All that I'm saying is that you can't deny the whole "percentage risk" concept and thus using the idea that "we all take risks in this game so it's all fair and balanced on that level" is wrong.
Toby Flenderson research lab 124	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:32:00 - [6] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: I run proto because my tank dies in one shot if i dont. I run proto because i cant fit a second weapon with my 100 cpu plasma cannon if i dont. i run proto because i earned it and can field it without going negative. "Congratulations! You just purchased a brand new Ferrari! YAY!! Now, go race in this Prius because one of the other guys doesnt have one." Haha so if you had a Ferrari you'd want to race a Prius? now this time read what i typed I'm pointing out the mismatch between a Ferrari and a Prius and then continuing to point out the humor in someone with a Ferrari being upset that they couldn't race it against a Prius. If I need to spell it out further, here it goesGÇª There is no contest between a Ferrari and a Prius in a race. It would not be a testament of skill to win a race driving a Ferrari if your opponent was a Prius. To imply that not being able to carry out a demonstration of this complete mismatch is something to fret about is funny to me when I think about the obvious analogy to Dust. No one is saying you can't use the Ferrari, at least not me. I've said this many times. I don't personally think that mowing down free/advanced suits using proto is very fun but if you're into that then good for you. You must enjoy the game a lot then. I don't care that you run proto. I don't. Check what I've written. So the only thing left in your post was the goofy Ferrari quote which I responded to. What didn't I read that you hoped I would?
Toby Flenderson research lab 126	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:56:00 - [7] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: I run proto because my tank dies in one shot if i dont. I run proto because i cant fit a second weapon with my 100 cpu plasma cannon if i dont. i run proto because i earned it and can field it without going negative. "Congratulations! You just purchased a brand new Ferrari! YAY!! Now, go race in this Prius because one of the other guys doesnt have one." Haha so if you had a Ferrari you'd want to race a Prius? now this time read what i typed I'm pointing out the mismatch between a Ferrari and a Prius and then continuing to point out the humor in someone with a Ferrari being upset that they couldn't race it against a Prius. If I need to spell it out further, here it goesGÇª There is no contest between a Ferrari and a Prius in a race. It would not be a testament of skill to win a race driving a Ferrari if your opponent was a Prius. To imply that not being able to carry out a demonstration of this complete mismatch is something to fret about is funny to me when I think about the obvious analogy to Dust. No one is saying you can't use the Ferrari, at least not me. I've said this many times. I don't personally think that mowing down free/advanced suits using proto is very fun but if you're into that then good for you. You must enjoy the game a lot then. I don't care that you run proto. I don't. Check what I've written. So the only thing left in your post was the goofy Ferrari quote which I responded to. What didn't I read that you hoped I would? again, you should try reading. i said i would be unable to use the ferrari because someone on the other team didnt have one, forcing me to use a prius instead. YAY 4th grade reading skills!!!.....or not.... Haha I assure you I can read. What I can't seem to do is understand how this relates to Dust then. Are you saying that someone has prevented you form using proto by not having proto themselves? Because that doesn't happen. At all. Most people have Ferrari's in Dust, and again, I've never hinted even that you couldn't use them or that I would condone this restriction. To reiterate my thesis once again (now in a DUST/stupidraceanalogy hybrid)GÇª Most people have Ferarri's at this point and the only thing special about driving Ferrari's is the ability to drive them all day, every day, in every race, against any vehicle. For someone who can do this without blinking an eye, it might be hard to understand the risk someone who can't takes when trying to play on their playing field. Pulling out a Prius might be the only option they have after losing a few Ferrari's. #poormercproblems. I appreciate you attacking my reading capabilities and challenge you to either agree or disagree with basically the only point I've been arguing this whole time: Risk is not calibrated uniformly from player to player due to varying amounts of ISK the players possess. PS: I double dare you. Stop dodging with the reading ****, it's boring.
Toby Flenderson research lab 126	Posted - 2013.12.04 04:06:00 - [8] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: Haha I assure you I can read. What I can't seem to do is understand how this relates to Dust then. well at this point i wont even bother reading what you typed. its called an analogy for a previous point i really dont remember anymore. peace Sweet job making a post and then bailing when people challenge your opinion. Later bro.