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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
1503
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Posted - 2013.12.01 14:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been meaning to bring this up for a while now but didn't exactly know how to explain it...but I think I figured it out.
Right now we have plenty of ways to earn wp for support related actions, and plenty of ways to earn wp for killing related actions. However, there are two parts of this game that are not very well rewarded or acknowledged and it is restricting the diversity of this game.
Obviously we have Assaults that are great at killing, and Logistics that are great at earning tons of wp using equipment...but what about our scouts and heavies? Well first of all let's think about what kind of gameplay styles we have for both suits.
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The Sentinel is all about point defense. Apparently the commando is supposed to be the aggressive style/more versatile heavy but that's a completely different topic. We only have the Amarr sentinel so we're limited to low slots, meaning that until we get a caldari/minmatar heavy we won't see any fast aggressive shield HMGs like we did back in Chromosome.
But wait, if the aggressive heavy is gone, how are we supposed to earn warpoints? The only three types of rewards a heavy with an HMG can get are kills, kill assists, and destruction bonuses. Back in chromosome heavies were able to easily get 20-30 kills per round without even trying. The good ones getting upwards of 40-60. To me this seemed balanced because that's literally the only way for a heavy to earn points with their weapon. Of course they could be AV, but almost all suits have a way to do AV in one way or another.
Right now, the best way to play the heavy is to defend. You sit at a point and guard it by killing the enemies as they keep trying to take it for themselves. Why not give extra points for killing a player that was hacking an objective? or maybe even just for enemies that are within certain range of the objective? How about extra points for killing enemies around a point you just captured? If CCP really wants heavies to play point defense then there should be some incentive involved besides the fact that the HMG is good at 30 meters or less.
For the more aggressive mobile heavy that runs with their squad, what about points for taking damage well past their total ehp? For instance, if a heavy is taking lots of damage while being repped, shouldn't they be rewarded for being the meat shield/bullet sponge/distraction? The repair tool already gives guardian points for repping someone that makes a kill, what about giving some of that bonus to the person being repped?
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Then we have the scout... the quick, stealthy style of gameplay. They have the same wp potential as an assault, but in order to be effective they have to move around much more and be careful not to be spotted. Since the scout is all about not being detected, why not reward them for it? How about giving a small bonus each time they prevent a scan? What about bonuses for shooting/stabbing players in the back, or "stealth kills" that give another bonus for not showing up on the tacnet when you kill them?
Scouts also seem to use RE's, so maybe that same bonus for killing someone while hacking would help them too.
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These are just a few examples of things I'd like to see in this game to give more balance to the different types of playstyles. One playstyle shouldn't be so much better than another that it makes that playstyle not worthwhile. Certain weapons even have this problem in terms of killing efficiency, where some weapons are just better at killing in general than others.
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Niavlys77
Paladin Survey Force
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.12.01 15:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
Absolutely - depending on the suit used, there really should be different point bonuses based on what they're meant for.
- Scouts: preventing a scan, just barely escaping firefights without dying, stealthy melee kills even?
- Heavies: taking more damage than their EHP in a life (from shield/armor rep), defending an objective |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe.
RISE of LEGION
1044
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Posted - 2013.12.01 16:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't like the idea of role specific points since it will force people to play in a certain way. Leaving the points as they work now, rewarding kind of generic actions, allows people to choose how they want to use each class.
Fun > Realism
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deepfried salad gilliam
Sanguine Knights
202
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Posted - 2013.12.01 18:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Why not make wp go to obvious class things
Scan prevented 10 wp
Point defense 1 wp every 10 seconds near a friendly objective
Christ is lord
Sanguine knights , open recruitment, join now.
Fear is a choice, I choose not to let it control me.
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Cass Caul
395
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Posted - 2013.12.01 18:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
For a month of Uprising, the only Light Weapon I had was the Sniper Rifle (and for about 4 months in closed and open beta). It's an even more role specific weapon than the HMG. It isn't even point defense, it is area-deterrent.
11 months of only playing a Scout, if I got even just 5WPs every time I got "scan prevented" (it really should be 15 to offset 15 point scan assist) I would get several orbitals a match and hit that WP/minute cap constantly.
IMO Team Spawn needs a reduction from 25 to 10
lots of other changes should be made. Slayer-Logi spaming Uplinks and Active scanner gains WPs too fast
+ÉߦëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦
A girl, on the internet?! I roll to disbelieve.
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
1508
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Posted - 2013.12.01 22:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis wrote:I don't like the idea of role specific points since it will force people to play in a certain way. Leaving the points as they work now, rewarding kind of generic actions, allows people to choose how they want to use each class.
These aren't role specific...but instead just more ways for certain roles to earn points.
For instance you don't have to use your equipment slots as a logi, but at least there's the option to.
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Shadow Archeus
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
159
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Posted - 2013.12.01 22:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Agreed shayz |
Lazy Scumbag
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
69
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Posted - 2013.12.02 00:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
If the Caldari heavy ever comes out, it should feel a lot like the shield based heavy of beta ( that was exponentially better than armor based for a mobile death machine) |
abarkrishna
WarRavens
97
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Posted - 2013.12.02 01:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
This is needed. Balancing without nerfing. Who would have thought such thing could exist in this community.
They call me the C.L.I.T commander.
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deepfried salad gilliam
Sanguine Knights
214
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Posted - 2013.12.02 03:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote:For a month of Uprising, the only Light Weapon I had was the Sniper Rifle (and for about 4 months in closed and open beta). It's an even more role specific weapon than the HMG. It isn't even point defense, it is area-deterrent.
11 months of only playing a Scout, if I got even just 5WPs every time I got "scan prevented" (it really should be 15 to offset 15 point scan assist) I would get several orbitals a match and hit that WP/minute cap constantly.
IMO Team Spawn needs a reduction from 25 to 10
lots of other changes should be made. Slayer-Logi spaming Uplinks and Active scanner gains WPs too fast
Not 15 ,its a lot easier to prevent a scan than get a scan assist
Christ is lord
Sanguine knights , open recruitment, join now.
Fear is a choice, I choose not to let it control me.
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Meeko Fent
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
1699
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Posted - 2013.12.02 04:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sure.
Refunding a few AUR militia Blueprints pertaining to vehicles because their respective modules will not exist anymore
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Oswald Rehnquist
753
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Posted - 2013.12.02 04:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
WPs from equipment need to be reduced, the imbalance is that equipment spammers are also functional slayers, the reason why logi slayers are so popular is because equipment spam allows them to get orbitals faster and their semi/auto rifles kill just as effectively.
I'm not saying remove any slot, just reduce equipment points. When I was practicing my ds flying, I easily got 400-600 points just by dropping a set of quantum uplinks at the beginning of a match with me doing nothing else but goofing off and practicing flight. That is about 6-10th place right there, which falls right on the median score.
To boost other playstyles, there should be
1) Defender Points- Kills for killing an enemy near an objective, defending locations is more tactical than the ring around most games devolve into
2) Killing Enemies that are hacking points
Also weapon damage should increase for hitting someone in the back, this will increase scout wp potential by making their MO more rewarding
Below 28 dB
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Lazy Scumbag
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
69
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Posted - 2013.12.02 05:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Equipment points were put in place to reward the few players who benefit the team. Also possibly to lure slayer logis into running equipment. It doesn't mean they will stop shooting. The explanation given on one of the PSN videos for Dust said a logi 'will never be able to go head to head against assault' players, so we must be doing it wrong. |
Kierkegaard Soren
DUST University
Ivy League
28
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Posted - 2013.12.02 10:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Heavies should have a built in ability to gain double war points when they defend an objective designated by the squad leader, and if you want to be really bold give Sentinels a built in "Bastion" module where the equipment slot would normally be which allows them to trade movement speed for weapon optimal range, reduced heat build up and additional ehp when it's activated. Kills in this mode earn additional wp too, so a lone heavy can designate his own points to defend to the death.
Scouts need to have superb passive scanning that gives them the same wp gain mechanic that the active scanner currently uses; if you scanned it and someone else killed it, you gain the intel bonus for being sneaky.
I love back stab wp idea, perhaps call it an "Execution"? ;) |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
297
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Posted - 2013.12.02 10:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
We definitely need more sorts of WP rewards that benefits certain roles (regardless of suits). There sooo many ways we could reward players for doing what they should do.
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Piercing Serenity
Fatal Absolution
439
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Posted - 2013.12.02 15:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
You know, I was thinking about this earlier today. Maybe one of the fixes is a more developed "Squad commands" UI. For example, we could have:
Repel: Place this order on a player or vehicle, and get points from keeping them X meters away from either a particular objective or any objective. We could use the same mechanic that tracks distance for drops ships, and it could be a large bonus to reward AV players
Clear: Place a large circular marker (some decent size) that automatically expires after some time or when all of the squad mates leave the zone. Give players a wp bonus for every time interval the zone is clear
Infiltrate: Place a marker over an area, give WP based on objective or installation hacked in the area, multiplied by the number of enemies in the zone
Your EHP idea for heavies
DUST 514 BETA VET
16.2M Lifetime SP
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Xaviah Reaper
Nyain San
Renegade Alliance
183
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Posted - 2013.12.02 15:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
kills with sniper rifles, shotguns, and novaknives should gain 150 wp ea to balance out the kill / survivability rate.
heavies should be killing people just as much as assaults and more in closer quarters so changes should be made there. OR heavies should get suppression wp for pushing units away from combat. not sure how thats gunna work out though. In terms of vehicle kills, that kind of has to stay where its at because otherwise everybody and their gran will AV any vehicle instantly.
AR is underpowered, forge guns need buff, imperial ScR is weak, scout suits are slow, heavies are scary, and up is down.
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taxi bastard
Minor Trueblood
30
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Posted - 2013.12.03 08:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
to be honest i find that playing as a scout its easy to farm WP's - just bellow a logi bro for potential even though i only use a militia fit.
heavy's i feel for though - i want my SP's back for a horrible investment. i have over 20% of my SP's wasted in HMG and sentinel skills, would love those points back to buff my hacking and speed skills.
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taxi bastard
Minor Trueblood
30
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Posted - 2013.12.03 08:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Xaviah Reaper wrote:kills with sniper rifles, shotguns, and novaknives should gain 150 wp ea to balance out the kill / survivability rate.
heavies should be killing people just as much as assaults and more in closer quarters so changes should be made there. OR heavies should get suppression wp for pushing units away from combat. not sure how thats gunna work out though. In terms of vehicle kills, that kind of has to stay where its at because otherwise everybody and their gran will AV any vehicle instantly.
feck me, sniper rifles are dirt cheap and low risk - they do not deserve the ISK payout reward associated with WP total. I believe that they should cost double their current price to help balance risk vs reward.
being a scout is not about running around the middle of the battle trying to shotgun people or cut them with your knives. if you think that this is the job of the scout, then your wrong.
knives are a side arm - you can always use a main weapon for ranged attack. the shotgun is great for close in combat such city battles and a longer ranged side arm works well with it. no need for 3x's the WP's
heavy/HMG is so situational - if the battle is constantly moving being a HMG heavy is horrible - if its static and close range its good. for me personally i think the heavy is the most screwed of all classes currently, we really do need to wait for the rest of the heavy content to be released before making suggestions. |
Glass Zeraki
The Phoenix Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.12.04 02:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
I am a Gallente Assault w/assault rifle player, have been since I started DUST. I wish I would've put my points into Logistics, but by the time I realized there's no comparison it was too late to start over. From my perspective, there are two problems with the Assualt class:
1. Used properly, the Heavy/Logi combo is utterly devastating, especially when in extreme CQC where you're surrounded. They both have their roles in that situation and do it well. Assualts do not do well in those situations because they don't have the hit points of a Heavy and of course the Logi is too busy repping him to worry about the Assualt. What's an Assualt to do in that situation? Hide? The AR doesn't have the same damage potential up close as the HMG. So knowing he's as useless in killing the enemy in that situation as the Assault is, the Logi simply hides and reps a Heavy, throwing down nanohives, gaining heaps of WP's, while the Assualt just dies over and over again costing the team clones.
2. Put simply, Logistics players have more options. They can do everything the Assualt can do at range, have a built-in passive armor repair, higher base CPU/PG, and in an intense CQC fight they have their uplinks, nanos, and rep tool to fall back on...all at the cost of a meager speed decrease and no sidearm (not 100% sure they don't). Yeah I have a sidearm, but 97% of my kills come from my main weapon. As an Assualt, I feel in the way. The '+5% to shield recharge rate per level' bonus that all assualts get is crap to put it nicely.
Make the Assault class relevant CCP. Rework the Assault suit bonuses, curtail the slaying ability of Logis somehow, I don't care how you do it. Just make it so I don't feel like a complete idiot for choosing Assault over Logistics. |
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Lazy Scumbag
Intara Direct Action
Caldari State
80
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Posted - 2013.12.17 02:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
Glass Zeraki:
Make the Assault class relevant CCP[/b]. Rework the Assault suit bonuses, curtail the slaying ability of Logis somehow, I don't care how you do it. Just make it so I don't feel like a complete idiot for choosing Assault over Logistics.[/quote]
-The most used class is hardly irrelevant, but should by no means be king in all situations. Racial bonuses are near useless, but when they finally get around to fixing them, they will change five other things at the same time, again destroying the balance of the game.
BTW, in your heavy/logi example, you should spam grenades. Low class, but very effective. |
abarkrishna
WarRavens
178
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Posted - 2013.12.17 03:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
I gave up on the idea that this game would ever be balanced.
But I do agree that there should be non equipment based WP rewards. I do not think race/ class specific bonus' are the way to go however.
No you kill this blueberry hacking the CRU we are camping. I already killed the last 2.
When will they learn!
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