DUST Search - [CCP Please Read] - [Yelsha, You Too]

All Channels

General Discussions

[CCP Please Read] - [Yelsha, You Too] - Regarding BPO Removal

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5212	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:21:00 - [1] - Quote After some time of reflecting on recent events here in the forums, I came to the following conclusion. If any of you disagree with me, please speak now or forever hold your pee. Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116404&find=unread CCP Logibro wrote: Hey all, We just wanted to clarify statements made about the removal of BPOs. We are in the process of removing BPOs from the market. We have already removed them from the in game market, and we will eventually be removing them from packs available on the PSN Store. We are not removing any existing BPOs from any player inventories and there are no plans to do so. BPOs are currently not functioning as intended so we are looking at the way they work in game. Again, we would like to reiterate that they will not be removed from any inventories. The highlighted portion seemed like a very absolute statement that our BPOs will not be removed. This is the statement that reassured us that our BPOs (which we bought and stored in our inventory) will be safe. But then the following statement from another Dev came up recently not too long after (a couple of weeks actually). Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122274&find=unread CCP Frame wrote: In regards to BPOs: we are removing and refunding a few specific AUR militia Blueprints pertaining to vehicles because their respective modules will not exist anymore. We have no plans for the immediate future to touch other blueprints. [...] 4800 AUR Militia 180mm Reinforced Steel Plates Blueprint 4800 AUR Militia Shield Regenerator Blueprint 4800 AUR Militia Shield Resistance Amplifier 4800 AUR Militia Power Diagnostic System Blueprint As you can see here, there was a sudden change of plans. On the one hand, I do agree with many concerned players here that this is CCP going back on their word. But I do have another hand, you know. That other hand is telling me that AUR is being refunded at the current market price as you can see in the quotes above. If you are a recent player who bought these BPOs, you are given back AUR at the same amount you paid them for. If you're a closed-beta vet who owns these, you'll be earning profit. That other hand also has a very important question. Before I get to the question, here is a post made by Yelsha. Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122476 Yelsha Jin-Mao wrote: I've sent a complaint to the Office of Fair Trading... [...] Every time you buy something, be it a mobile phone from a mate or a week in Cuba from a travel agent, you make a contract with the seller. Now, this question goes to ANYONE who purchased these specific BPOs. I'm not talking about BPOs in general. I'm talking about the ones being removed according to CCP Frame. Were these four specific BPOs only available via the in-game Dust market window and therefore required you to purchase AURUM first? Or were these four specific BPOs also available directly from the PSN market as part of a Mercenary Pack posted for sale on the PSN Store? Note: If you bought merc packs from within the game itself, that still counts as purchasing from the PSN Store because Sony is the one marketing the Merc Packs for CCP. If you were only able to purchase these BPOs using AUR acquired from the PSN Store then technically, using Yelsha's quote "Every time you buy something you make a contract with the seller" this means that you specifically agreed to pay X amount of real money for X amount of AUR. The seller could technically care less (or none at all) about what you intend to do with the AUR after that. If the same seller makes a sudden change to that AUR, you are entitled to a cash refund for that AUR. But no changes were made to the AUR. You then used that AUR to purchase these BPOs directly within the in-game market. CCP then decides to remove these particular BPOs from the game and subsequently your inventory. CCP finally gives you a refund of the amount you paid for if you purchased them during open beta or shortly after the game's release. If you purchased them during closed beta, then you stand to profit with extra AUR magically appearing without adding more cash to it because you bought these BPOs back when they were only about 50-100 AUR each. At this point, no contract was violated. You got your AUR back at the exact amount you spent them. Technically, when you spent the AUR to purchase the BPOs from within the game, the only agreement you made was that CCP would refund you the AUR you spent on the BPOs should the BPOs get removed. Now comes the next part... IF on the other hand you managed to purchase these particular BPOs "AS PART OF" a Merc Pack that was featuring it (example: a 'Toxin' SMG as part of a Merc Pack) by spending X amount of real world money to get that Merc Pack, then you have a case of sorts. But even then, you have to go through Sony first since they are the ones selling you the Merc Packs for cash. At the most, you'll probably only get a store credit from Sony. Remember, Sony is a business often times business would prefer to give you store credit rather than cash refunds because then they get to keep the money and you still get to pick another item at no* additional charge. So, again... Were these four particular BPOs only available from within the in-game market in Dust which required you to first purchase AUR from Sony? Yes or No? EDIT: * - Typo CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5216	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:30:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved... just in case. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5216	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:34:00 - [3] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: In-game market only. Which means.........................................................?? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5218	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:47:00 - [4] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: CCP owns all virtual goods in game including your character. CCP reserves the right to change in-game items which is necessary for this type of game or else they would never be able to improve the game. The player claiming legal rights to continue to own those specific blueprints is wrong. He purchased Aurum. He got Aurum. He spent the Aurum. He is now operating in the virtual world where CCP has the right to modify or remove the item. They chose to play nice return the Aurum so that players can purchase a different item. He still has access to the service provided by CCP and a comparable amount of virtual goods. If they hadn't returned the Aurum or left the player with an old and useless module the crying would now be about being left with a useless item. The developer is improving the game and providing you with comparable virtual currency. What is the problem? The problem, at least for the folks QQing about it, is that these people who are QQing might not understand what's going on here. If you're right, then these items were only available in-game as separate items requiring X amount of AUR to purchase with. This means that this whole thing about lawsuits and stuff like that is not only unnecessary but completely overblown. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5219	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:52:00 - [5] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ? it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos. we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store Again, answer my question. Were these BPOs ONLY available via the in-game market which required you to first purchase AUR to get it with? If so, then CCP technically wasn't stealing from you. They gave you back the AUR you spent on the BPO for. Just like how Sony would refund you with either cash or store credit if they removed AUR from your wallet. If they were also available in the PSN Store "AS PART OF" of a merc pack (example: 'Toxin' SMG on the Merc Pack) and you spent real world $$$ for that, then you can say CCP robbed you. If they were available as part of a Merc Pack, which packs were they part of? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5219	Posted - 2013.11.21 18:56:00 - [6] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store I hate to be the bad guy here or be the Devil's advocate, but I have to say this... If you answered YES* to my question, then you NEVER spent real money on those BPOs in question. You only spent AUR to get those BPOs. Again, Sony as a seller would care less what you intended to do with the AUR when you bought it from Sony. EDIT: Stupid typos CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5220	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:01:00 - [7] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: According to the DUST 514 EULA Purchase of content is governed by the Sony Entertainment Terms of Service. http://dust514.com/eula/ http://www.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com/terms-of-service/ This looks like it might apply: SNEI DOES NOT PROVIDE ANY REFUNDS IN THE EVENT OF A PRICE DROP, A SUBSEQUENT PROMOTIONAL OFFERING OR PRODUCT REMOVAL, AND THE FEE APPLICABLE TO YOUR TRANSACTION WILL BE THE FEE THAT WAS IN EFFECT AT THE TIME OF THE TRANSACTION. That still doesn't answer the question. Were these specific BPOs being removed by CCP ONLY available via the in-game market in Dust? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5220	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:02:00 - [8] - Quote You guys are probably wondering why I'm constantly asking the same question even though you already answered it for me. There is a reason for this. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5220	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:07:00 - [9] - Quote Anarchide wrote: I bought Packs and then used the AUR included in those packs to buy BPOs But you paid money only for what was in those packs. Sony still can care less on what you do with that AUR. If you spent that AUR on these four particular BPOs and CCP is refunding them (all of it) to you, then you just got the AUR back. No problems here. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5221	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:09:00 - [10] - Quote As you can see people, this is the point I'm trying to make. You only purchased these BPOs with AUR. The AUR is what you spent your real money on. You're getting that AUR (all of it) back. Therefore, this whole thing is being overblown with threats of lawsuits and stuff like that. But of course, this still doesn't excuse why CCP went back on their word of never touching our BPOs in our inventory. Then again, they go back on a lot of things. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5221	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:15:00 - [11] - Quote Bump for exposure. I'm surprised Seymor or Yelsha haven't posted here so far. They're probably at work or something. Eventually they'll see this. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5221	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:23:00 - [12] - Quote UPDATED As of 21 Nov 2013 @ 19:16 Eve Time I just remembered. I still have the BPO of the Yellow Stamina Mod known as the Cardiac Stimulant. It use to have an ISK equivalent back then, but then that ISK variant got removed because it later became obsolete due to the Green Stamina Mod you all know as the Cardiac Regulator. But I still have the BPO. On top of that, it still has the same exact stats as before and I can still fit it if I want. Interesting how the plot thickens. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5221	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:25:00 - [13] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: +1 Op, I was going to say something similar but you laid it out far better, also I am sure I would have more heated replies and get called a troll again. Given your position, I'm certain many would have called you CCP's Pet. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5221	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:27:00 - [14] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: After some time of reflecting on recent events here in the forums, I came to the following conclusion. If any of you disagree with me, please speak now or forever hold your pee. ... If you were only able to purchase these BPOs using AUR acquired from the PSN Store then technically, using Yelsha's quote "Every time you buy something you make a contract with the seller" this means that you specifically agreed to pay X amount of real money for X amount of AUR. The seller could technically care less (or none at all) about what you intend to do with the AUR after that. If the same seller makes a sudden change to that AUR, you are entitled to a cash refund for that AUR. ... IF on the other hand you managed to purchase these particular BPOs "AS PART OF" a Merc Pack that was featuring it (example: a 'Toxin' SMG as part of a Merc Pack) by spending X amount of real world money to get that Merc Pack, then you have a case of sorts. ... Unfortunately this situation has already been broached and handled in EVE Online. In EVE they introduced PLEX which is a game representation of 30 day of subscription time. You pay real world money for the time card code you get from a vendor. the code "promises" x days of gameplay which is true if you use it directly for that. However CCP added another option where you can log into the game, enter the code and a PLEX virtual item appears in your item hangar in game. You can then sell or trade this in the game as you please. It can be scammed off you, it can be lost, it can be destroyed... So the "promise" of game time for money represents the same situation you are describing, a promise of something in the game (BPO) for real money (AUR). However this situation of money for services NOT rendered when a PLEX is destroyed in game has been brought up in EVE and shot down before. This BPO situation is no different. I understand your point and I'm glad you brought it up as a reference. But I have to kindly remind you that this topic is about the BPOs in Dust, not the PLEX in Eve Online. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5223	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:45:00 - [15] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: See I agree with what Maken Tosch is saying here. If you bought Aurum, that is what you paid real life money for. This means you are entitled to however much Aurum you bought. If you then used that virtual currency to buy something on the market, CCP has every right to refund you that virtual currency when removing said items. CCP does not have the right to remove the Aurum that you purchased though. On the other hand, if you spent real life money on a pack/collectors edition, there was no middle man. You directly purchased the BPO/item and as such if CCP wanted to remove those items, they would need to refund you PSN credits, or in the case of the collectors edition, real life currency. Removal in case #1 is handled solely within the confines of the in-game world. Removal in case #2 is much more complicated, and involves a business practice called "bait and switch" which is illegal in most countries. Thank you. And once again, I want to remind everyone here that Sony doesn't give a damn what you intended to do with the AUR when you bought it from Sony. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5224	Posted - 2013.11.21 19:57:00 - [16] - Quote It's really nice to see this thread not going out of control yet. Let's hope it stays that way. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5228	Posted - 2013.11.21 20:16:00 - [17] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I understand your point and I'm glad you brought it up as a reference. But I have to kindly remind you that this topic is about the BPOs in Dust, not the PLEX in Eve Online. I don't believe you do. I was drawing a parallel to another situation that would indicate the outcome of this situation as they are the same thing. Real money for game item being lost vs. real money for game item lost. Just that in the second version (the DUST one) they are being nice enough to refund some AUR for it. I actually do. But I was wanting this to be just about the BPOs and not get PLEX mixed up because there will be many players who will just get caught up arguing whether BPOs and PLEX are the same and I can't have that kind of distraction on my thread. Please understand as I don't want this thread to get derailed. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5228	Posted - 2013.11.21 20:38:00 - [18] - Quote Ninja Bump CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5228	Posted - 2013.11.21 21:51:00 - [19] - Quote I'm surprised no one has come up with a valid counterpoint to my OP. Am I actually right for once? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5230	Posted - 2013.11.22 03:40:00 - [20] - Quote Does this mean there is no counterpoint to my post? There has to be one internet lawyer out there that disagrees at least. Isn't there? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5236	Posted - 2013.11.22 07:05:00 - [21] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Free Bump! Also, because no-one explicitly stated, and, as possessor of the four BPOs in question, I can answer it entirely - YES. These four modules were purchasable with AUR only. They, like all other Militia-grade BPOs, were not offered via any of CCP's PSN packs. EDIT: Also Also, you should add Seymor's name to the title too EDIT EDIT: If you could put the explicit positive confirmation in OP, too, that would be helpful as far as making a single cohesive argument is concerned XD (which is not to say that this is not.) Yeah. Lol I referenced yelsha in particular because he is the one who claimed to actually have filed a legitimate court claim against CCP via some UK fair trade court system. If my argument is correct, which it seems it is, then that claim will not go well for this guy. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5241	Posted - 2013.11.22 16:50:00 - [22] - Quote @Sleepy Finally, someone who offers a good counterpoint to my OP. Your point does seem rather valid I admit. But I got a question for you on what you pointed out in regards to CCP selling "nothing of interest" in your opinion. What may not be of interest to you, may be an interest to another player. Therefore something of interest is a very subjective term. As you pointed out already and as made apparent by those posting here, many of us here still find interest in some of what CCP has to offer. I find AUR suits, weapons, modules to be of interest even if they're not permanent items. They help me save ISK for example. The boosters are also of interest to me because I can gain SP faster which, if applied onto the right skill books, can turn my seemingly weak starter suits into effective killing machines for their class. Now for my question. How can you define what's considered something of interest if someone else may disagree with you on what you consider to be interesting? For example, I might find boosters interesting but someone else won't. Someone else might see AUR RESPECs as interesting but someone won't. On top of that, there is a possibility that CCP might offer something of interesting later on in the future that we haven't seen before. One idea that comes to mind is the ability to convert the AUR into AUR Tokens and trade the AUR Tokens for ISK to other players who have boatloads of ISK. Eve Online players have the ability to buy and sell AUR Tokens amongst each other, but just like AUR in Dust, AUR in Eve has to be injected into the economy via one of the players paying cash directly to CCP for that Token. Ok, I'm going to have to go against my own wishes here and bring PLEX into this discussion. Jadd Hatchen posted a reply in this thread early on stating that PLEX brought about a similar case. Only this time, PLEX could be lost by simply getting scammed by a player, destroyed while in transit, trashing it, or deleting your character that has it in its inventory. Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1519001#post1519001 Quote: Unfortunately this situation has already been broached and handled in EVE Online. In EVE they introduced PLEX which is a game representation of 30 day of subscription time. You pay real world money for the time card code you get from a vendor. the code "promises" x days of gameplay which is true if you use it directly for that. However CCP added another option where you can log into the game, enter the code and a PLEX virtual item appears in your item hangar in game. You can then sell or trade this in the game as you please. It can be scammed off you, it can be lost, it can be destroyed... So the "promise" of game time for money represents the same situation you are describing, a promise of something in the game (BPO) for real money (AUR). However this situation of money for services NOT rendered when a PLEX is destroyed in game has been brought up in EVE and shot down before. This BPO situation is no different. @Jadd Well, it looks like it finally got to the point where PLEX and Dust AUR are now talked about in this thread. Let's hope we don't confuse too many people here with it. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5242	Posted - 2013.11.22 19:36:00 - [23] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Now for my question. How can you define what's considered something of interest if someone else may disagree with you on what you consider to be interesting? For example, I might find boosters interesting but someone else won't. Someone else might see AUR RESPECs as interesting but someone won't. Sorry, didnGÇÖt really address this, my bad. Or maybe I did, I don't know... But anyway, this is in addition to my above post. While the consumer is entitled to a refund or compensation, they are not entitled to a refund of their choosing or of greater value. For example a BPO MLT shield module is not equal to BPO LAV or paying $5 for the BPO does not entitle you to a refund of $10.00 because GÇ£you feel inconveniencedGÇ¥. As a consumer you are entitled to store credit or cash refund of the paid amount or an equal item. CCP (or any store) can offer different items if they so wish (to make happy customers for example) but they are not obliged to do so. Store credit can only be exchanged to items in said store. So if the customer does not find anything they desire in the store, and this is one's personal opinion only, they are entitled to a cash refund. I may or may not be rambling at this point. I may or may not need a beer. In that case, what do you make of Yelsha's effort to file a legal complaint against CCP? What do you think of his idea of compensation such as the Master Recruiter CII Dropsuit, which is an item that has no aurum value and is a dropsuit item (not a vehicle one)? Do you think he even has a snowball's chance in hell that he could succeed? What do you think of the plex case brought up by Jadd? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5259	Posted - 2013.11.23 01:49:00 - [24] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: And he can ask for whatever he wants but CCP is not obliged to comply if his request isnGÇÖt within reason. If he is asking for one dropsuit, that is not a BPO, then why shouldnGÇÖt CCP agree :D it is actually inferior as when he dies, he loses it. If itGÇÖs a BPO, then no it is not within reason as the suit is vastly superior to the BPO he loses. If he remains unreasonable, CCP can just refund him money and he cannot complain or dispute it again. Cash is final and the GÇ£debtGÇ¥ is settled. I donGÇÖt know much about PLEX (I donGÇÖt play EVE) but the item seems GÇ£either orGÇ¥. Either you use it to extend your subscription to EVE or you use it as a token to receive in game items. Now, again, I donGÇÖt know how EVE works. Can your BPOGÇÖs be stolen? And I thought there was only one BPO ship, or am I wrong? If the item was not sold as permanent (meaning no matter what you do you cannot lose it) the no, you donGÇÖt have any grounds to demand compensation if you lose it. I donGÇÖt know how CCP introduced the new feature to the PLEX so I cannot say if players had any grounds to demand a refund. And in what circumstance did they demand a refund anyway? After losing the ship? Or after using their PLEX to get in game items only to notice they couldnGÇÖt use it to a subscription? Your first paragraph: Yes, the dropsuit item he is requesting as compensation is a BPO according to the Dust 514 "Recruit Your Friends" page: Recruits/Permanent Item Rewarded/Skill Booster Rewarded 1 Staff Recruiter Assault Dropsuit Staff Recruiter Active Booster (1-day) 2 Staff Recruiter Assault Rifle Staff Recruiter Active Booster (1-day) 3 Staff Recruiter Scrambler Pistol Staff Recruiter Active Booster (1-day) 4 Staff Recruiter Sniper Rifle Staff Recruiter Active Booster (1-day) 5 Staff Recruiter Laser Rifle Staff Recruiter Active Booster (3-day) 10 Senior Recruiter Assault C-I Dropsuit Senior Recruiter Active Booster (7-day) 25 Senior Recruiter Light Assault Vehicle Senior Recruiter Active Booster (15-day) 50 Master Recruiter Assault C-II Dropsuit Master Recruiter Active Booster (30-day) Your second Paragraph: Technically, there are BPOs in Eve Online, but they only cost ISK as they are not AURUM items. But they do have a material requirement in order to use it. They are permanent in the context of having unlimited production use. However, they can be... A) Destroyed if stored in the cargo hold of the ship that is destroyed in battle (I can attack you without provocation). B) Stolen from you (theft within Eve Online is perfectly legal). C) Swindled from you by a scammer (scamming is perfectly legal within Eve Online as well) The same can be said for the PLEX items. However, the PLEX items require cash in order to be injected into the in-game market where it can either be A) traded away for more ISK or B) redeemed within the game for game time. Also, PLEX is not a permanent item. It can change hands an infinite amount of times during trade, but it can only be redeemed once for 30 days of game time by the last person who received it. And unlike the BPOs in Dust, the PLEX in Eve don't have a middle man. They can be bought directly from CCP but you can also find them in Amazon I believe. Your third paragraph: Only after losing the ship did some of them tried to demand a refund. But the only people who demanded such refunds were players who were completely new to the game and the concept behind PLEX. After a while, they gave up trying after realizing it was their fault as players for not being careful with them in a universe full of egomaniacs, sociopaths, masochists, sadists, and even corporate spies and outlaws. Hauling PLEX in a ship unfit to survive a short attack in high-sec space filled with such players is like parking your Rolls Royce in the hood. Don't expect anyone to NOT do anything. Oh, just so you know, scamming, corporate theft, espionage, and all that fun stuff is already legal here in Dust. Once player-to-player trading is introduced to Dust, I expect a lot of players to pump out tears when they realized they sold their most prized possessions to another player for just 0.01 ISK. Just like how it happens in Eve. But that will probably be a year from now. A TL;DR on How Plex Works: Player A ($$$)----> CCP CCP (PLEX)----> Player A Player A (Trades PLEX)----> Player B -Or -Player A (Redeems PLEX)----> 30 day game time -Or -Player A (Converts PLEX)----> "X" amount of AURUM -AURUM is used to purchase "permanent" vanity items (ie: a monocle). CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5261	Posted - 2013.11.23 04:35:00 - [25] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: CCP Frame wrote: In regards to BPOs: we are removing and refunding a few specific AUR militia Blueprints pertaining to vehicles because their respective modules will not exist anymore. We have no plans for the immediate future to touch other blueprints. [...] 4800 AUR Militia 180mm Reinforced Steel Plates Blueprint 4800 AUR Militia Shield Regenerator Blueprint 4800 AUR Militia Shield Resistance Amplifier 4800 AUR Militia Power Diagnostic System Blueprint Yeah... I think most everybody completely forget to read that bit right there. But I still have my bpo cardiac stimulant from long ago. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5265	Posted - 2013.11.23 17:32:00 - [26] - Quote Moonracer2000 wrote: I've been away so this is all new to me. It is an interesting situation/discussion. Personally, my only complain is that my only incentive to buy AUR (besides supporting the game) was to buy BPOs. I'm not interested in subscriptions games or real money consumables. BPOs seemed like a nice middle ground. Sure it makes sense to remove BPOs that are no longer part of the game and refund players with AUR. The only problem is that there are no BPOs to purchase with that AUR since that part of the market has apparently been phased out. I'm less worried about the legality of the situation than I am of customer satisfaction. Well, there are technically other things offered for AUR such as the consumable AUR modules, suits, weapons, and vehicles as well as implants such as (passive/active) boosters. But as Sleepy and I pointed out pointed out early, what's considered "interesting" for a player to spend that AUR on is subjective. You might like the AUR modules, but not the boosters. You might like the boosters but not the rest. You might hate both as well. NOTE: Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116191&find=unread FoxFour wrote: All Dem Aurum Items So, you know how you can go to the market and buy Aurum variations of weapons and equipment? For the most part the only difference between these items and their ISK counterparts is that they have lower skill requirements. Pay Aurum, get into stuff with less skill points. Well it turns out this creates a really tricky thing to balance, and we don't want to have any pay-to-win issues. With that in mind why not make all those Aurum variants available in the loyalty store as well? So we did. It turns out it makes our lives a lot easier, gives you guys a whole lot of stuff to get from the loyalty store, and is just awesome all around. I am not going to go and list every Aurum item that will be in the loyalty store because that's a LONG list. I will however give you a brief breakdown of how those items will be distributed: [insert spreadsheet here] As you can see, the AUR modules, suits, weapons, etc. are being made available as LP items in the incoming Factional Warfare overhaul. I'm not sure if that means the AUR items in the current market will be removed and just converted into LP items or if the AUR items will remain while their LP counterparts will come in as a source for non-paying players. It remains to be seen which route they'll take, but if they go for the former then that means you AUR selection will be limited to just boosters once Factional Warfare overhaul arrives. But if they go for the latter, then you're good. What do you think? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5265	Posted - 2013.11.23 18:13:00 - [27] - Quote xLuca Brasi wrote: and seriously you really think these changes are gonna be the last ones? you think dust is gonna run smoothly after this? First question, I'm hopeful that they keep to their word this time. But as I said earlier they tend to go back on their word every now and then. Therefore I'll just have to wait and see what they do next. Second question, In terms of no more BPOs being injected into the market, yes. I'm a marketeer in Eve Online and I have spent countless months trying to analyze exactly how the Dust BPOs would best be incorporated into the incoming market without having a major impact on either Eve or Dust's future industry. So far, my observation has led me to conclude that the BPOs won't hurt the market much as long as two factors are taken into consideration: 1. The BPOs remain nothing more as militia level items. 2. No more BPOs are injected into the market via further purchases from CCP. This will become no different than the Tech II BPOs of Eve Online which are no longer available to acquire but still owned and traded by the extremely few players who own them or knows someone who does own them. In terms of the total removal of all BPOs even from our inventory, I still say yes from a technical standpoint. However, this is a bad idea as you and everyone else can clearly see. The players will not be happy and many more people will leave the game and ultimately the game will truly be dead because of it. So, the total removal of the BPOs is NOT in the best interest of either CCP or the players so I advise CCP to please consider leaving the rest of the BPOs alone. And considering that some of the BPOs we have have been acquired via the merc packs such as the 'Toxin' weapons, Templar suits, etc., I don't see CCP even trying considering the extremely complicated nature of doing so. It's still possible, but extremely unlikely. For those of you not in the know about Eve Online's Tech II BPOs, let me give you a run down. In Eve Online, there are two types of blueprints: BPOs and BPCs (originals and copies respectively). BPOs were only purchasable via ISK from the NPCs. The BPOs have unlimited production runs but they require materials to produce and they only produce Tech 1 items (equal to your STD items in Dust). The BPCs on the other hand are the same thing, except they have a limited production run and once that runs out the BPC will expire and you have to purchase a replacement. However, the BPCs have something the BPOs don't have: Efficiency. BPCs are extracted from BPOs as copies of the BPOs and then those copies are put through special facilities where they get researched to become more efficient in terms of production time and material requirements. The higher the Manufacturing Level, for example, the lower the material requirements. The same thing for the Production Level of the copies. Their ISK value in the secondary market is directly proportional to this factors. At one point early on in Eve's development, Tech 2 level BPOs which are equal to your advanced-level items in Dust were once introduced by CCP as special limited time only items. If I recall correctly, they were only made available via a lottery. Those lucky few to have them were given immense power. These BPOs offered two things that no other BPOs had: their ability to create T2 items directly and their status as novelty items that offered financial power. But then CCP realized that was a mistake they made. They didn't want to take them away since the players earned them fair and sqaure, so they introduced a process to alleviate the problem called "invention". Invention is a very special process that allows players who don't own the T2 BPOs by taking an existing T1 BPO and making it go through an extensive process to create a T2 BPC (limited-run copy). However, these facilities in Eve Online can only be made available by Eve players and these facilities are created, maintained, and controlled by players only. This allowed players to compete with the T2 BPO owners. The economy so far has suffered no negative impact since then, but the T2-BPO owners are still in very powerful positions because of these T2 BPOs. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5266	Posted - 2013.11.23 20:57:00 - [28] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Still don't get the bitching, the four modules being removed are not being removed because they are BPOs, but because they do not fit with the 1.7 patch. You know what, if people are that mad about it, CCP, let them have the BPO that just sits in their inventory that cannot be used. There, you get to keep it :) That's what gets me. I can't seem to understand how they don't work in 1.7. I'm not a vehicle pilot so I wouldn't know and therefore I need someone who is well versed in it to explain it to me. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5269	Posted - 2013.11.24 00:03:00 - [29] - Quote This still doesn't answer my question on how the BPOs being removed won't work in 1.7. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5270	Posted - 2013.11.24 01:21:00 - [30] - Quote NomaDz 2K wrote: Mortedeamor wrote: are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ? it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos. we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store ^THIS Again, you never purchased the BPOs with cash directly. You purchased the aurum first in order to get the BPOs. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5271	Posted - 2013.11.24 07:13:00 - [31] - Quote xLuca Brasi wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: NomaDz 2K wrote: Mortedeamor wrote: are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ? it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos. we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store ^THIS Again, you never purchased the BPOs with cash directly. You purchased the aurum first in order to get the BPOs. and the aur I bought with permanent items on the market is worth more than the aur they are giving me now with a market that has no permanent items. I don't think English is your primary language judging by your post. Are you telling me that the aurum you're getting back is not the same amount of aurum you bought originally? CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5271	Posted - 2013.11.24 13:15:00 - [32] - Quote Sleepy Shadow wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: NomaDz 2K wrote: Mortedeamor wrote: are you sure there isnt some precedence for this ? it looks like when you buy aur you are not in fact buying aur buy exchanging real time money for a virtual currency ...then you spend that virtual currency for virtual items in game to technically if ccp takes bpo's they are stealing from us..we exchanged our currency for aur which is just an ingame virtual currency ..then we purchased these bpos. we spent real money on those bpos doesnt matter if they were purchased in psn store or dust in game store ^THIS Again, you never purchased the BPOs with cash directly. You purchased the aurum first in order to get the BPOs. Didn't I cover this quite extensively? That whole voucher comparison still assumes/depends on whether the courts will see aurum as either a currency conversion or simply an a product. You'll be surprised about how technicalities play a role in the courts. And yes, the court of law can often times make very little sense. Take the George Zimmerman case and compare that to another somewhat similar case of a black woman firing a warning shot against her abusing husband who was about to kill her. The only difference is that no one died in the second case but the woman got sentenced to twenty years just because she discharged the weapon. How's that for technicality? Keep in mind that both cases happened in the same state (Florida) in about the same year. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5271	Posted - 2013.11.24 13:26:00 - [33] - Quote Fizzer94 wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: Fizzer94 wrote: Nobody owns any BPOs anyway. We are all just leasing them from CCP until CCP takes them back (which they can do whenever they want, with or without warning). The magic of DRM, folks. You can't buy digital goods, only lease them, usually forever (but there are exceptions). Eventually, Tranquillity will shut down and what then? Will you expect CCP to refund all the money you spent on Dust/EVE? It makes no difference if itGÇÖs let or owned. BPOGÇÖs were let indefinitely, so if they are removed the contract is breached and CCP is liable to compensate. CCP can do whatever they want with the BPOGÇÖs, or any item in game, but it does not remove their liability to those who paid for them. And discontinuing the development and support of a game is vastly different from just removing items from it. I know its not fair. I personally don't like DRM, but that's the way things work right now. Did you know that when you get a game on PSN or Steam, the same rules apply? This is why I never feel comfortable getting downloaded games unless they are cheap/free. Did you know that in the USA whenever you purchase a movie or a video game you don't technically own them? You just simply bought the license to use them? That's why I often find it as a misnomer whenever I see a commercial telling me to own a copy today. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5272	Posted - 2013.11.24 17:20:00 - [34] - Quote Jack Kittinger wrote: Sleepy Shadow wrote: Some players might be happy with AUR refund, it is not illegal to offer store credit as compensation if customer is happy to use the credit on other items. Like I said in the other topic, I am willing to let this slide...But if they even consider taking more BPOGÇÖs from me, I will exercise my right as a consumer and demand PSN credit. Maken Tosch makes much more sense than users like Yelsa but I think he is playing devil's advocate and will invariably end up with egg on his face because he is using straightforward logic and solid arguments to justify the actions of CCP who, as they just showed with the removal of these modules use, care not for logic or making sense. What am I trying to say? Maken thanks for making this kinda thread with true discussion even if at the end of the day CCP does as CCP wishes... On the other hand, I second Sleepy's thoughts because today they take four, in three months they take one more, in one year after you and I are gone (The Walking Dead Season 2, MGS V, Real Life) they finally launch item trading and because they already took those BPO's some time ago they decide it's ok to turn your BPO's into consumables but you got 9999, so it's ok right? it's only common sense to say you signed the eula and shrug it off, right? Might as well. We did technically sign the contract although most of us who did didn't bother reading it. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5272	Posted - 2013.11.24 17:23:00 - [35] - Quote I wonder how much time it will take for me to burn through 9,999 suits. XD CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5273	Posted - 2013.11.24 17:29:00 - [36] - Quote Just did the math. It will take me 22 hours to burn through 9,999 suits assuming I die 150 times per skirmish match and each match lasted 20 minutes. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5273	Posted - 2013.11.24 17:31:00 - [37] - Quote 222 hours of I only die 15 times a match. CCP, thank you for hotfixing the knives. But please make sure they're at their full potential in 1.7.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 5883	Posted - 2013.12.13 18:47:00 - [38] - Quote NomaDz 2K wrote: Zion Shad wrote: What is the total list of Vehicle BPOs taken away that players got from packs and did they receive AUR for them? That's that question Id be looking at They did get AUR back which the MAJORITY of the people did not Request, U C CCP FAILED to Reach an Agreement with those , like myself which purchase these BPOs with AUR using Real CA$H. I personally wanted my BPOs EXCHANGED for another BPO which is still in game. CCP could do this yet they neglect our satisfaction on their product. @NomaDz You bought the AUR first with cash via Sony's PSN Store. According to Sony's transaction history, you paid cash only for the AUR. Sony doesn't care what you do with the AUR after you buy them. You then used the AUR to purchase the BPOs. If the BPOs you bought get removed from your inventory then you get a refund of the AUR (which you paid money for). Let's say I go to a store (let's call it Store A) that sells options A, B, and C. Store A requires a certain currency in order to purchase these options. Let's say it's plastic play coins like the ones you see in a toy store used for playing around with. Store B sells those plastic play coins. You purchase a bundle of plastic play coins from Store B and then go to Store A to purchase option C because that is the only option that interests you at the moment. But before purchasing from Store A you are first made to agree to the EULA is has regarding the options it sells. You are not allowed to enter if you don't accept the EULA. In this case, you accepted the EULA. But later on, Store B says they are no longer selling option C and they are making a forced recall of the option you bought due to a bad design it has. Because you bought that option with only the plastic play coins, the store gives you back the coins at the same amount you paid them in. Effectively a refund so that you can use it for all other options they offer. You then go back to Store B to get a cash refund of the coins you bought, but Store B refuses because the coins you bought were never taken away from you and you accepted the EULA established by Store A. The statement that I made about the BPOs is based on the EULAs and Terms of Services established by both Sony Online Entertainment and CCP Games. That is the evidence I have to support my statement. What evidence do you have to support yours? @Zion Shad None of the four specific vehicles BPOs that are being removed by CCP came from merc packs. They were only available via the in-game Dust market as individual items purchasable only with AUR. This was repeated countless times in this thread of mines which is why I repeated the question about it over and over again so that it is made clear to everyone. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online/DUST514, the EVE/DUST514 logo, EVE/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to OMG Labs to use EVE Online/DUST514 and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, OMG Labs. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.