DUST Search - [Suggestion] Base splash damage on signature radius

Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:

Signature radius has little to do with missile hits and more to do with turret tracking.

It has plenty to do with missile hits.
Look at the formula I edited into the previous post.

I've been playing Eve for about four years now and I know from experience how missiles work. I know that damage application from missiles is, as I have said, explosion velocity vs ship speed. If signature radius had anything to do with it, my Navy Issue Drake wouldn't do the same per missile damage to all types of stationary ships providing equal resistances. If signature radius mattered to damage application, then even when stationary, smaller ships would take less damage, which they don't. The only thing that modifies missile damage when target speed isn't a factor is the resistances against the missile damage type.

Signature radius doesn't matter so much against stationary targets because the formula gives greater weighting to the speed when something is moving very slowly.
If you think it has no effect whatsoever, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

If signature radius is a consideration for missile damage, then it's probably the unmodified base signature radius of the hull being used as the gauge for base ship size when determining speed VS velocity for the percentage of the ship caught by the explosion.

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Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5228	Posted - 2013.11.18 20:32:00 - [1] - Quote I think that splash damage would be better off based on signature radius. Essentially, at the moment a grenade does equal damage to any type of suit (apart from resistances). With this a scout suit, for example, would take less damage from grenades making the damage from them more proportional to the frame, instead of being instantly vaporised by a glancing hit. Thoughts? Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 723	Posted - 2013.11.18 20:36:00 - [2] - Quote So scan profile would give an explosive resistance? Seems odd. How about scan precision instead? Can be explained by the suit detecting the explosive and redirecting suit defenses to face the explosion. Though even then, still seems kinda strange. !
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5229	Posted - 2013.11.18 20:39:00 - [3] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: So scan profile would give an explosive resistance? Seems odd. How about scan precision instead? Can be explained by the suit detecting the explosive and redirecting suit defenses to face the explosion. Though even then, still seems kinda strange. It's more of a measure of how large the suit is. It's not directly explosive resistance - but glancing, splash hits from explosives would deal less damage to smaller targets. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. Renegade Alliance 3801	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:01:00 - [4] - Quote Think it'd be better just to modify Splash Radius into Splash Diameter. 14 Meters is a hard thing to get away from. ANON Diplomat -//- I Support SP Rollover ^_^
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 374	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:25:00 - [5] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think that splash damage would be better off based on signature radius. Essentially, at the moment a grenade does equal damage to any type of suit (apart from resistances). With this a scout suit, for example, would take less damage from grenades making the damage from them more proportional to the frame, instead of being instantly vaporised by a glancing hit. Thoughts? So you're seeking to give an advantage to people using signature dampers and scout suits. I understand you want your scout to survive a grenade, but your idea would turn every anti-personnel grenade into a heavy destroyer. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5241	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:27:00 - [6] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think that splash damage would be better off based on signature radius. Essentially, at the moment a grenade does equal damage to any type of suit (apart from resistances). With this a scout suit, for example, would take less damage from grenades making the damage from them more proportional to the frame, instead of being instantly vaporised by a glancing hit. Thoughts? So you're seeking to give an advantage to people using signature dampers and scout suits. I understand you want your scout to survive a grenade, but your idea would turn every anti-personnel grenade into a heavy destroyer. Cap it. It'd be a mechanic very much like missile damage in EVE. Otherwise, aside from what you pointed out, you'd be able to instagib tanks with it. It would, however, function as a decent soft nerf for grenades. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 374	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:31:00 - [7] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think that splash damage would be better off based on signature radius. Essentially, at the moment a grenade does equal damage to any type of suit (apart from resistances). With this a scout suit, for example, would take less damage from grenades making the damage from them more proportional to the frame, instead of being instantly vaporised by a glancing hit. Thoughts? So you're seeking to give an advantage to people using signature dampers and scout suits. I understand you want your scout to survive a grenade, but your idea would turn every anti-personnel grenade into a heavy destroyer. Cap it. It'd be a mechanic very much like missile damage in EVE. Otherwise, aside from what you pointed out, you'd be able to instagib tanks with it. It would, however, function as a decent soft nerf for grenades. Missile damage in Eve is based on explosion velocity vs ship speed. This is why speed tanking works against missiles. A frigate sitting still doesn't have a larger signature than the moving one, yet the missile with hit the stationary frigate just as hard as it hits a battleship. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5242	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:32:00 - [8] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think that splash damage would be better off based on signature radius. Essentially, at the moment a grenade does equal damage to any type of suit (apart from resistances). With this a scout suit, for example, would take less damage from grenades making the damage from them more proportional to the frame, instead of being instantly vaporised by a glancing hit. Thoughts? So you're seeking to give an advantage to people using signature dampers and scout suits. I understand you want your scout to survive a grenade, but your idea would turn every anti-personnel grenade into a heavy destroyer. Cap it. It'd be a mechanic very much like missile damage in EVE. Otherwise, aside from what you pointed out, you'd be able to instagib tanks with it. It would, however, function as a decent soft nerf for grenades. Missile damage in Eve is based on explosion velocity vs ship speed. This is why speed tanking works against missiles. A frigate sitting still doesn't have a larger signature than the moving one, yet the missile with hit the stationary frigate just as hard as it hits a battleship. It is also based on signature radius. Damage = D * MIN(1, Sr/Er, (Ev/V * Sr/Er)^(log(DRF) / log(5.5)) ) Where D = base damage of the missile, Sr = signature radius of the target, Er = Explosion radius of the missile, Ev = Explosion Velocity of the missile, V = velocity of the target ship, DRF = damage reduction factor of the missile. MIN being a function that chooses the lower of two given values, and log being the natural logarithm of the given value. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 374	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:34:00 - [9] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think that splash damage would be better off based on signature radius. Essentially, at the moment a grenade does equal damage to any type of suit (apart from resistances). With this a scout suit, for example, would take less damage from grenades making the damage from them more proportional to the frame, instead of being instantly vaporised by a glancing hit. Thoughts? So you're seeking to give an advantage to people using signature dampers and scout suits. I understand you want your scout to survive a grenade, but your idea would turn every anti-personnel grenade into a heavy destroyer. Cap it. It'd be a mechanic very much like missile damage in EVE. Otherwise, aside from what you pointed out, you'd be able to instagib tanks with it. It would, however, function as a decent soft nerf for grenades. Missile damage in Eve is based on explosion velocity vs ship speed. This is why speed tanking works against missiles. A frigate sitting still doesn't have a larger signature than the moving one, yet the missile with hit the stationary frigate just as hard as it hits a battleship. It is also based on signature radius. Signature radius has little to do with missile hits and more to do with turret tracking. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 132	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:36:00 - [10] - Quote While I love where you are going with this idea, I don't think basing it off of our signatures is the way to do it. In EVE, explosions use a stat called Explosion Velocity, basicly the faster the explosion, the more damage a moving target will take. Conversely, moving faster will have you taking reduced damage. So instead of damage based on suit sig, lets use the speed at which your suit is moving. Stationary targets take full damage, and drop it off from there. So a speed fit scout suit could literally run through a field of explosions, taking minimal damage. Damn, that paints a sexy image in my head EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5242	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:36:00 - [11] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Signature radius has little to do with missile hits and more to do with turret tracking. It has plenty to do with missile hits. Look at the formula I edited into the previous post. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5242	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:37:00 - [12] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: While I love where you are going with this idea, I don't think basing it off of our signatures is the way to do it. In EVE, explosions use a stat called Explosion Velocity, basicly the faster the explosion, the more damage a moving target will take. Conversely, moving faster will have you taking reduced damage. So instead of damage based on suit sig, lets use the speed at which your suit is moving. Stationary targets take full damage, and drop it off from there. So a speed fit scout suit could literally run through a field of explosions, taking minimal damage. Damn, that paints a sexy image in my head That's... actually pretty good! Editing OP. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 374	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:44:00 - [13] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Signature radius has little to do with missile hits and more to do with turret tracking. It has plenty to do with missile hits. Look at the formula I edited into the previous post. I've been playing Eve for about four years now and I know from experience how missiles work. I know that damage application from missiles is, as I have said, explosion velocity vs ship speed. If signature radius had anything to do with it, my Navy Issue Drake wouldn't do the same per missile damage to all types of stationary ships providing equal resistances. If signature radius mattered to damage application, then even when stationary, smaller ships would take less damage, which they don't. The only thing that modifies missile damage when target speed isn't a factor is the resistances against the missile damage type. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5242	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:46:00 - [14] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Signature radius has little to do with missile hits and more to do with turret tracking. It has plenty to do with missile hits. Look at the formula I edited into the previous post. I've been playing Eve for about four years now and I know from experience how missiles work. I know that damage application from missiles is, as I have said, explosion velocity vs ship speed. If signature radius had anything to do with it, my Navy Issue Drake wouldn't do the same per missile damage to all types of stationary ships providing equal resistances. If signature radius mattered to damage application, then even when stationary, smaller ships would take less damage, which they don't. The only thing that modifies missile damage when target speed isn't a factor is the resistances against the missile damage type. Signature radius doesn't matter so much against stationary targets because the formula gives greater weighting to the speed when something is moving very slowly. If you think it has no effect whatsoever, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 374	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:47:00 - [15] - Quote Your edited OP is better though signature still shouldn't have anything to do with it. Otherwise I like it except with this system, I think there should then be a damage increase if the point of detonation is in front of the speeding dropsuit. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 376	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:51:00 - [16] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Signature radius has little to do with missile hits and more to do with turret tracking. It has plenty to do with missile hits. Look at the formula I edited into the previous post. I've been playing Eve for about four years now and I know from experience how missiles work. I know that damage application from missiles is, as I have said, explosion velocity vs ship speed. If signature radius had anything to do with it, my Navy Issue Drake wouldn't do the same per missile damage to all types of stationary ships providing equal resistances. If signature radius mattered to damage application, then even when stationary, smaller ships would take less damage, which they don't. The only thing that modifies missile damage when target speed isn't a factor is the resistances against the missile damage type. Signature radius doesn't matter so much against stationary targets because the formula gives greater weighting to the speed when something is moving very slowly. If you think it has no effect whatsoever, I'm afraid you're mistaken. If signature radius is a consideration for missile damage, then it's probably the unmodified base signature radius of the hull being used as the gauge for base ship size when determining speed VS velocity for the percentage of the ship caught by the explosion. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5243	Posted - 2013.11.18 23:52:00 - [17] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Signature radius has little to do with missile hits and more to do with turret tracking. It has plenty to do with missile hits. Look at the formula I edited into the previous post. I've been playing Eve for about four years now and I know from experience how missiles work. I know that damage application from missiles is, as I have said, explosion velocity vs ship speed. If signature radius had anything to do with it, my Navy Issue Drake wouldn't do the same per missile damage to all types of stationary ships providing equal resistances. If signature radius mattered to damage application, then even when stationary, smaller ships would take less damage, which they don't. The only thing that modifies missile damage when target speed isn't a factor is the resistances against the missile damage type. Signature radius doesn't matter so much against stationary targets because the formula gives greater weighting to the speed when something is moving very slowly. If you think it has no effect whatsoever, I'm afraid you're mistaken. If signature radius is a consideration for missile damage, then it's probably the unmodified base signature radius of the hull being used as the gauge for base ship size when determining speed VS velocity for the percentage of the ship caught by the explosion. I think that's about right, yes. I'm pretty sure you're right in saying that stationary targets take the vast majority of damage from missiles as well - it's just that sigrad does have some effect. Anyhow, these are semantics really. It's more about how it'd apply to Dust. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 377	Posted - 2013.11.19 00:01:00 - [18] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Signature radius doesn't matter so much against stationary targets because the formula gives greater weighting to the speed when something is moving very slowly. If you think it has no effect whatsoever, I'm afraid you're mistaken. If signature radius is a consideration for missile damage, then it's probably the unmodified base signature radius of the hull being used as the gauge for base ship size when determining speed VS velocity for the percentage of the ship caught by the explosion. I think that's about right, yes. I'm pretty sure you're right in saying that stationary targets take the vast majority of damage from missiles as well - it's just that sigrad does have some effect. Anyhow, these are semantics really. It's more about how it'd apply to Dust. Agreed. And a speeding merc is practically stationary when compared to an interceptor moving at over 14km per second. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 225	Posted - 2013.11.19 00:05:00 - [19] - Quote I would much rather see some kind of splash damage falloff. So the explosion would deal maximum damage for a direct hit and as the target gets further towards the edge of the radius the damage drops to zero. This would obviously require changes to radii and damage numbers but it would reward accuracy but not require it. The OP seem unnecessarily complex and would be difficult to communicate to new players (in fact any non-eve players).
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 377	Posted - 2013.11.19 00:09:00 - [20] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: I would much rather see some kind of splash damage falloff. So the explosion would deal maximum damage for a direct hit and as the target gets further towards the edge of the radius the damage drops to zero. This would obviously require changes to radii and damage numbers but it would reward accuracy but not require it. The OP seem unnecessarily complex and would be difficult to communicate to new players (in fact any non-eve players). Splash fall off for all types of splash damage would be an excellent addition, but would probably have part of the player base QQing. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.

Ulysses Knapse duna corp 599	Posted - 2013.11.19 00:20:00 - [21] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: I think that splash damage would be better off based on speed + signature. Essentially, at the moment a grenade does equal damage to any type of suit (apart from resistances). With this a scout suit, for example, would take less damage from grenades making the damage from them more proportional to the frame, instead of being instantly vaporised by a glancing hit. Also factor in speed, so the slower you're moving the more damage a target will take. Conversely, moving faster will have you taking reduced damage. So small, fast targets take reduced damage from grenade Stationary targets take full damage, and drop it off from there. So a speed fit scout suit could mitigate a significant amount of explosive damage to help compensate for its low HP. There'd be a cap on it so that heavies don't take ridiculous amounts of damage, while still letting speed and size mitigate the damage. Thoughts? For signature, no. For one, scan profile is not analogous to signature. Secondly, it's a much better idea to adjust splash efficiency for certain targets. As for explosion velocity and whatnot, no again. Unlike in EVE, we don't need fancy calculations. In EVE, you need those calculations, because otherwise it would be just as easy to hit a fast frigate as it would be to hit a stationary battleship. In Dust 514, we aim manually, so being small and moving fast is already beneficial. Humanity is the personification of change.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kinsho Swords Caldari State 97	Posted - 2013.11.19 00:31:00 - [22] - Quote Another scout buff thread in disguise . " Doubts are like flies and should be crushed !!!!!! " I hope that I am THE FLY SWATTER of those in my presence .
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 170	Posted - 2013.11.19 00:46:00 - [23] - Quote I like this idea although I would do it with out the speed, but this would allow things like adding back in the swarm sg but it would do very little damage to suits. I think it would allow CCP to play around with explosive weapons more with out worrying about the effect it has. you would have to add an explosion radius on top of the plash dmg radius tho.
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 379	Posted - 2013.11.19 01:35:00 - [24] - Quote I simply cant agree with the OP on this at all. Grenades are very dumb devices for the most part. They get triggered and either explode on contact or via timer. They do not care about your signature footprint they dont care about really anything at all they just blow up. They surly dont care about how fast you are running. If your a light frame and you get caught in the blast rad of a grenade your toast. Just because your using equipment to make your frame more stealthy does not mean some explosion is going to not hit you. Best thing you can do is to utilize your mobility to avoid grenades if possible.
Vell0cet Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 563	Posted - 2013.11.19 05:57:00 - [25] - Quote +1. I posted this idea a few months ago. What I like about it (especially the speed aspect) is that it forces stationary players to move when in cover being shelled with AoE rounds. It creates new and interesting tactics, and parallels EVE. Quick/Dirty Test Range Idea
hackerzilla Defenders of the Helghast Dream 495	Posted - 2013.11.19 06:03:00 - [26] - Quote me gusta. Minnie Scout & Logi Greatness achieved through persistance.


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