DUST Search - Logistics - Stating the obvious

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

Ghosts Chance wrote:

Oswald Rehnquist wrote:

Thought experiment....

Why don't we just have one suit with empty slots and just fill it with what we want if that is the case? Which is kind of what is happening with everybody just picking the same hyper versatile suits.

I"m not for taking the light weapon slot at all, they need that light weapon slot, but you do have to understand how large versatility invalidates niche by making the other suits more restricted because if everything is open and flexible the most flexible suit is literally thy best suit. A counter to this would then make the other suits super restricted and specialized.

If versatility is a bonus for a particular line of suits, then all other suits have to receive gimmicky special items only they can use (like heavy weapons for sentinels) for the game to expand at all.

Essentially, what you are saying is that suit "A" can be anything, can do anything because they have the most slots/cpu/pg to do so which is part of game design so tough luck other suits. Why aren't the other suits given this flexibility if this is where we are going? Why have niche at all then when one suit can lean far enough into them without having to spec into the suits for the niche?

we cant just have one suit with empty slots becuase it would invalidate the entire foundation of suit design, pretty much rendering specialisations moot.

i suggest you read the first post, becuase it seems you missed some bits, like the part where i state the only option is to lessen the SP investment in suits, increase their reliance on specialisation (aka suit abilities and restricted slot layout) removing their individual versatility and distributing it over multiple suits.

that reduces a single specs versatility and creates a situation where the best option is to spec into multiple suits rather then use a single suit for everything.

so no "tough luck" isnt what im saying, im saying the EXACTLY oposit of what you thought i was.

The one suit with empty slots was to point out why the current balance is bad design in a game with options, I don't actually support it.

Also reducing the cost of the other suits would not fix the glaring issue of hyper versatility and its effect on niche roles.

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Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 129	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:47:00 - [1] - Quote Lets have a talk about logistics and how people have this giant complaint about them being used for everything. i would hate to state the obvious but aparently it needs to be stated. In this game people are givin tools (suits/modules/weapons) and are givin the ability to CREATE THEIR OWN CLASS. naturally as humans who are givin a the option the go hog wild with customisation, they are going to actually do so. logistics suits are the most popular for two reasons. The first is that they have a higher ability for customisation, meaning they fit into more playstyles then any other suit. This means that chances are if your creating your own class, like this game was designed to let you do, there is a higher chance that the logistics suit is more suited to that class then any other suit, resulting in them being the most popular suit. Secondly human being get bored and like to change up their playstyles as a means of releaving burnout, this means that a suit well adapted to many different playstyles has extra apeal givin its ability to instantly change to a different playstyle without any other SP investment. Naturally this is an even bigger advantage for the logistics suit since SP investment into other suits is THE most costly SP investment. This results in logistics suits being used for roles that even other suits are better suited to because thats a whole lot easyer and more effective then spending 3+ months grinding out another suit to play a different role. So please, stop complaining about logistics suits and turn your attention to the real problem. theres simply not enough variety amung the suits, most importantly not enough different logistic specialisations. not only that but because suits are the most SP intensive skills people are the MOST reluctant to cross train into a different suit. theres only two solutions. everything else doesnt actually adress teh core issue. 1 reduce the SP required to spec into alturnative suits encouraging peopel to use the suit most adapted to the role they wish to play at that moment. 2 seperate logistics from medium frames and introduce different lostics specialisations with suits and bonuses tailored to different playstyles diversifying the usefullness of logi suits into different roles preventing them from filling all the roles to an extent. Anything other then that will not in any way prevent any QQ related to logistics suits/roles
TEBOW BAGGINS The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 1038	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:51:00 - [2] - Quote bah i wanna play a mindless game i dont wannabe talk about complex... things... like fitting a suit and spending SP. if someone out thinks me in game by creating a paper to my rock i will seek to have them nerfed here.
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 888	Posted - 2013.11.18 03:53:00 - [3] - Quote Finally a post about Logi Bro fits that is intelligent, articulate and not just the standard QQ from Kitten Excrement Mercs that lack all the attributes that allow seeing a solution in whatever the restrictions that CCP (or random game developer) has handed them. Now if we can get CCP/Shanghai to decide that the players should get ganked for being successful we might get vehicles that are junk. The ones coming in 1.7 are promised to be paper hulks by the Devs themselves. Hopefully they are busy screwing those up so the rest of won't have to all run scout suits and resolve battles with slap fights.
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 133	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:00:00 - [4] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Finally a post about Logi Bro fits that is intelligent, articulate and not just the standard QQ from Kitten Excrement Mercs that lack all the attributes that allow seeing a solution in whatever the restrictions that CCP (or random game developer) has handed them. Now if we can get CCP/Shanghai to decide that the players should get ganked for being successful we might get vehicles that are junk. The ones coming in 1.7 are promised to be paper hulks by the Devs themselves. Hopefully they are busy screwing those up so the rest of won't have to all run scout suits and resolve battles with slap fights. ive done game design as a hobby for over a decade :P my role in the team has always been as the person who analyses proposed changes and trys to figure out what/if any effects it will have on overall gameplay. as well as sit in on "heres a problem we have and we need to figure out how to solve it without throwing every piece of balance weve obtained so far out the window" meetings and prevent things from just displacing problems elsewhere. its always been my job to determin what specific changes would do to the current game, and while im not going to claim to be amazing at it my mind is always working towards understanding things from that perspective. (ive never worked on anything retail but several card games/bored games and been apart of the projects ive worked on) i look at all these threads and all i can do is shake my head, none actually make any attempt to figure out WHY something is how it is and simply just try to bruteforce a baindaid solution. bandaids dont fix problems, they just displace them to somewhere else
Oswald Rehnquist 621	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:10:00 - [5] - Quote Thought experiment.... Why don't we just have one suit with empty slots and just fill it with what we want if that is the case? Which is kind of what is happening with everybody just picking the same hyper versatile suits. I"m not for taking the light weapon slot at all, they need that light weapon slot, but you do have to understand how large versatility invalidates niche by making the other suits more restricted because if everything is open and flexible the most flexible suit is literally thy best suit. A counter to this would then make the other suits super restricted and specialized. If versatility is a bonus for a particular line of suits, then all other suits have to receive gimmicky special items only they can use (like heavy weapons for sentinels) for the game to expand at all. Essentially, what you are saying is that suit "A" can be anything, can do anything because they have the most slots/cpu/pg to do so which is part of game design so tough luck other suits. Why aren't the other suits given this flexibility if this is where we are going? Why have niche at all then when one suit can lean far enough into them without having to spec into the suits for the niche? Below 28 dB
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 133	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:24:00 - [6] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Thought experiment.... Why don't we just have one suit with empty slots and just fill it with what we want if that is the case? Which is kind of what is happening with everybody just picking the same hyper versatile suits. I"m not for taking the light weapon slot at all, they need that light weapon slot, but you do have to understand how large versatility invalidates niche by making the other suits more restricted because if everything is open and flexible the most flexible suit is literally thy best suit. A counter to this would then make the other suits super restricted and specialized. If versatility is a bonus for a particular line of suits, then all other suits have to receive gimmicky special items only they can use (like heavy weapons for sentinels) for the game to expand at all. Essentially, what you are saying is that suit "A" can be anything, can do anything because they have the most slots/cpu/pg to do so which is part of game design so tough luck other suits. Why aren't the other suits given this flexibility if this is where we are going? Why have niche at all then when one suit can lean far enough into them without having to spec into the suits for the niche? we cant just have one suit with empty slots becuase it would invalidate the entire foundation of suit design, pretty much rendering specialisations moot. i suggest you read the first post, becuase it seems you missed some bits, like the part where i state the only option is to lessen the SP investment in suits, increase their reliance on specialisation (aka suit abilities and restricted slot layout) removing their individual versatility and distributing it over multiple suits. that reduces a single specs versatility and creates a situation where the best option is to spec into multiple suits rather then use a single suit for everything. so no "tough luck" isnt what im saying, im saying the EXACTLY oposit of what you thought i was.
Oswald Rehnquist 621	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:26:00 - [7] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Thought experiment.... Why don't we just have one suit with empty slots and just fill it with what we want if that is the case? Which is kind of what is happening with everybody just picking the same hyper versatile suits. I"m not for taking the light weapon slot at all, they need that light weapon slot, but you do have to understand how large versatility invalidates niche by making the other suits more restricted because if everything is open and flexible the most flexible suit is literally thy best suit. A counter to this would then make the other suits super restricted and specialized. If versatility is a bonus for a particular line of suits, then all other suits have to receive gimmicky special items only they can use (like heavy weapons for sentinels) for the game to expand at all. Essentially, what you are saying is that suit "A" can be anything, can do anything because they have the most slots/cpu/pg to do so which is part of game design so tough luck other suits. Why aren't the other suits given this flexibility if this is where we are going? Why have niche at all then when one suit can lean far enough into them without having to spec into the suits for the niche? we cant just have one suit with empty slots becuase it would invalidate the entire foundation of suit design, pretty much rendering specialisations moot. i suggest you read the first post, becuase it seems you missed some bits, like the part where i state the only option is to lessen the SP investment in suits, increase their reliance on specialisation (aka suit abilities and restricted slot layout) removing their individual versatility and distributing it over multiple suits. that reduces a single specs versatility and creates a situation where the best option is to spec into multiple suits rather then use a single suit for everything. so no "tough luck" isnt what im saying, im saying the EXACTLY oposit of what you thought i was. The one suit with empty slots was to point out why the current balance is bad design in a game with options, I don't actually support it. Also reducing the cost of the other suits would not fix the glaring issue of hyper versatility and its effect on niche roles. Below 28 dB
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 133	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:34:00 - [8] - Quote Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Thought experiment.... Why don't we just have one suit with empty slots and just fill it with what we want if that is the case? Which is kind of what is happening with everybody just picking the same hyper versatile suits. I"m not for taking the light weapon slot at all, they need that light weapon slot, but you do have to understand how large versatility invalidates niche by making the other suits more restricted because if everything is open and flexible the most flexible suit is literally thy best suit. A counter to this would then make the other suits super restricted and specialized. If versatility is a bonus for a particular line of suits, then all other suits have to receive gimmicky special items only they can use (like heavy weapons for sentinels) for the game to expand at all. Essentially, what you are saying is that suit "A" can be anything, can do anything because they have the most slots/cpu/pg to do so which is part of game design so tough luck other suits. Why aren't the other suits given this flexibility if this is where we are going? Why have niche at all then when one suit can lean far enough into them without having to spec into the suits for the niche? we cant just have one suit with empty slots becuase it would invalidate the entire foundation of suit design, pretty much rendering specialisations moot. i suggest you read the first post, becuase it seems you missed some bits, like the part where i state the only option is to lessen the SP investment in suits, increase their reliance on specialisation (aka suit abilities and restricted slot layout) removing their individual versatility and distributing it over multiple suits. that reduces a single specs versatility and creates a situation where the best option is to spec into multiple suits rather then use a single suit for everything. so no "tough luck" isnt what im saying, im saying the EXACTLY oposit of what you thought i was. The one suit with empty slots was to point out why the current balance is bad design in a game with options, I don't actually support it. Also reducing the cost of the other suits would not fix the glaring issue of hyper versatility and its effect on niche roles. the specialised suits with modules is literally the core the game is built around, to change it is to make a compeltly different game. aka not dust514, the solution to that is go play a different game built around a different core. redusing the cost of other suits and reducing the overal versatility in individual suits spreading the out to multiple suits not only fixes the issue at hand but is the ONLY solution. what your assentially saying with yoru statement is that removing versatility doesnt remove versatility.... wich is well a contradiction because of course it does. the reduced cost is to ensure its easyer to spec into another suit then to try to overstep the bounds of the one your using wich is the glue that cements the solution into place. step one, reduce individual versatility and create more specilisations to replace what you took out step two, reduce cost to make sure people have a reason to distribute SP into multiple suits rather then a single suit becuase right now even with a reduction of versatility the SP boundry is so high the population will be forced to overstep a suits intended role even if its not suited to what they are doing just because the game prevents you from doing otherwise.
Oswald Rehnquist 621	Posted - 2013.11.18 04:47:00 - [9] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: the specialised suits with modules is literally the core the game is built around, to change it is to make a compeltly different game. aka not dust514, the solution to that is go play a different game built around a different core. I agree with this, my entire post was to point out why versatility is bad in a niche shooter Ghosts Chance wrote: redusing the cost of other suits and reducing the overal versatility in individual suits spreading the out to multiple suits not only fixes the issue at hand but is the ONLY solution. what your assentially saying with yoru statement is that removing versatility doesnt remove versatility.... wich is well a contradiction because of course it does. the reduced cost is to ensure its easyer to spec into another suit then to try to overstep the bounds of the one your using wich is the glue that cements the solution into place That solution also makes each role less deep and everybody a jack of all trades if roles can be trained and switched so easily. Which I did not elaborate on, but that was an issue that I saw. I did not say that, I'm against cheapening the roles sp wise, and I am against the versatility imbalance we have at the moment, there are other solutions. Ghosts Chance wrote: step one, reduce individual versatility and create more specilisations to replace what you took out I completely agree, but wouldn't this alone fix the issue? Ghosts Chance wrote: step two, reduce cost to make sure people have a reason to distribute SP into multiple suits rather then a single suit becuase right now even with a reduction of versatility the SP boundry is so high the population will be forced to overstep a suits intended role even if its not suited to what they are doing just because the game prevents you from doing otherwise. This I disagree, again cheapening the roles and specializations will make this game get boring fast. Ghosts Chance wrote: your reading comprehension needs work, since not once is isk ever mentioned, so why you assume the balance involves isk is beyond me. I used isk as an equivalent to the cheapening of sp which you have suggested, I also initially missed where you mentioned, that you supported restricting versatility. Below 28 dB
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 135	Posted - 2013.11.18 05:02:00 - [10] - Quote to continue without a giant quote list :P right now we have a situation where we have a few tools in the toolbox, in order to be able to use a particular tool you have to grind for months and in order to be good with a tool you have to grind for a year. so the natural outcome is that people will pick the tool that covers the most bases, because anyone who doesnt will probably leave the game due to not having any access to the tools they need. the solution is to make it easyer to grab a different tool rather then pick the single most versatile tool. sure a screwdriver can do nearly anything if you want it tool, but a hammer is a better hammer then a screwdriver, right now using the screwdriver as a hammer is alot easyer then grinding out to be able to use a hammer when you want one. thats the core issue in suit design, you dont need to nessesarily nerf the screwdriver so much as make it easyer to pick up a hammer. tiericide is actually a method i would use to do this, focusing on widing the different types of suits and focusing the SP grind into making a single suit better rather then grinding up to proto before its useful. this would change the paradigm to one where you have acess to the hammer easyer, but the SP grind is focused on making the hammer better. in this way a low skilled hammer would be better then a high skilled screwdriver for when you need a hammer. it doesnt so much cheapen SP but rather shifts the focus from hige SP sink to unlock to huge SP to master but less to unlock. it would also kill proto stomping but thats another issue entirely. my point was an analasys of the cause of the problem rather then a concrete solution, nobodys adressing the causes and just suggesting bandaids that dont take players themselves and their reactions into account.



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