DUST Search - Shield tanking or armor tanking does it really matter in your weapon choice?

HowDidThatTaste wrote:

After reading this interview with CCP wolf man does anyone really care/know if the other player is shield tanking or armor tanking? When I am shooting at an opponent it is to kill him I can't choose my weapon based on the enemy. And honestly I couldn't tell the difference when shooting someone if they are shield tanking or armor tanking.

I guess reading this concerns me if even CCP wolf man doesn't realize that the difference is so small it is irrelevant of an advantage to have more shield or more armor. The only thing that matters is the EHP.

"A: I think that looking at the different weapon profiles and understanding the different damage the various weapons will deal depending on the suits you are wearing would help a lot. Recently weGÇÖve seen the scrambler rifle becoming more and more popular because people have realized a lot of the dropsuits out there are tanking shields (modifying their dropsuit to be heavily shield focused) and it does increased damage vs shields, so itGÇÖs very dangerous for those types of builds. Generally that kind of meta (most prevalent strategy) tends to change as certain dropsuit configurations and weapons become more popular. For example as anti-shield weaponry becomes more widespread youGÇÖll then see a shift back to armour and explosive weapons will become more useful. " CCP Wolfman

Quoted from here.

https://dust514.com/newsitem/?friendlyid=ccp-wolfman-interview-by-ccp-blowout&channelid=60&channelname=blog&newsitempagetobeselected=blog

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HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles 3954	Posted - 2013.11.11 04:03:00 - [1] - Quote After reading this interview with CCP wolf man does anyone really care/know if the other player is shield tanking or armor tanking? When I am shooting at an opponent it is to kill him I can't choose my weapon based on the enemy. And honestly I couldn't tell the difference when shooting someone if they are shield tanking or armor tanking. I guess reading this concerns me if even CCP wolf man doesn't realize that the difference is so small it is irrelevant of an advantage to have more shield or more armor. The only thing that matters is the EHP. "A: I think that looking at the different weapon profiles and understanding the different damage the various weapons will deal depending on the suits you are wearing would help a lot. Recently weGÇÖve seen the scrambler rifle becoming more and more popular because people have realized a lot of the dropsuits out there are tanking shields (modifying their dropsuit to be heavily shield focused) and it does increased damage vs shields, so itGÇÖs very dangerous for those types of builds. Generally that kind of meta (most prevalent strategy) tends to change as certain dropsuit configurations and weapons become more popular. For example as anti-shield weaponry becomes more widespread youGÇÖll then see a shift back to armour and explosive weapons will become more useful. " CCP Wolfman Quoted from here. https://dust514.com/newsitem/?friendlyid=ccp-wolfman-interview-by-ccp-blowout&channelid=60&channelname=blog&newsitempagetobeselected=blog
DildoMcnutz Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 306	Posted - 2013.11.11 04:08:00 - [2] - Quote Ive been thinking about this alot lately, everyone drops so quickly it really doesn't matter what damage type my gun is, there may aswell be no bonus's or negatives because it sure feels that way to me.
Cosgar ParagonX 7625	Posted - 2013.11.11 04:14:00 - [3] - Quote 1.7 will be interesting with two rifles that are better at damaging armor. But TTK needs to be seriously addressed so those differences are noticeable. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
HowDidThatTaste Ancient Exiles 3954	Posted - 2013.11.11 04:17:00 - [4] - Quote I guess I just find this statement to be an insight as to why we have so many weapon balance problems and useless suit weapon bonuses. Coming from the one developer whom I thought had a good grasp of the game he is developing. It is quit clear they do not play their own game or that statement could not have been made with a straight face. I believe that they only look at spreadsheet numbers for development. I guess this just really disturbed me and certaineky explains a lot but it makes concerned with the future balancing.
Spectre-M The Generals EoN. 99	Posted - 2013.11.11 04:24:00 - [5] - Quote I like to play with what I like. I started with the Caldari and Ar, but am now Amarr with SCR. I wanted a more accurate distance weapon, as I found alot of the weapons dealt quick damage in cqc. I dual tank the Amarr assault suit and lead with charged shots. This takes shields out in one pop, and a second charge or small volley finishes off armor. I got prof 4 to take some of the shields vs. Armor away in an effort to reduce it weakness. As a nice side effect I now do 133% to shields making my ability to control who drops first very easy. So no. The only time I change my tactics based on the enemy, is position/numbers, and the type of suit (heavy, light or med). My weapon choice is based on what range I want to occupy. But Wolfman is right about the trends to a degree.
Aisha Ctarl PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1683	Posted - 2013.11.11 04:34:00 - [6] - Quote Ammo types coming SOON(TM) Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming
Harpyja Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 756	Posted - 2013.11.11 04:55:00 - [7] - Quote Yes, you cannot change/choose your weapon right before engaging an enemy. What Wolfman was referencing was the long run effect. If you see majority of players that are shield tanked, you will possibly change your weapon to something that deals more damage to shield. However, what people are mentioning here is an issue related to the TTK. If TTK was as long as it used to be, then choosing your damage type would matter more. However, with the current TTK, it doesn't matter so much if a ScR can drop a shield tanked suit several tenths of a second faster than a plasma rifle. Fix the TTK, and weapon damage profiles will start to matter again. And you'll see cycles of people changing between armor and shield as the preferred weapons change from explosive and kinetic to thermal and electromagnetic. Eventually, I believe, this cycle should end at an equilibrium where there's an even spread of armor and shield tanked dropsuits and an even spread of the weapons used. In this case, it is user preference whether he/she wants armor or shield and his/her preferred weapon. Changing from one to the other will not improve survivability, as there will be an equal spread of damage types and tanking styles. This is the kind of Dust I want, where weapons and suits are picked solely by user preference, and not because everyone else is using suit x so I have to use weapon y, or vice versa. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 1850	Posted - 2013.11.11 05:43:00 - [8] - Quote Dont care i shot any 1 in range with my gun regardless off their efficency against shields and armor. Rule #1: shot first, think later. I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
Zero Notion Wraith Company 302	Posted - 2013.11.11 05:58:00 - [9] - Quote In theory, it should work like that. It doesn't, obviously. My Viziam laser, with Prof 3 and one enhanced dmg mod at optimal or near to optimal range is completely outclassed by my ADV ScR, no levels of prof or even a damage mod - across the board. I even snipe better with the ScR than I do with the ADV tactical sniper rifle. Not saying that the ScR is an "OP" weapon, just that in terms of current mechanics and values of armor/shields, his theory does not hold up well currently. Hopefully it will work out that way at some point.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2080	Posted - 2013.11.11 06:03:00 - [10] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: After reading this interview with CCP wolf man does anyone really care/know if the other player is shield tanking or armor tanking? When I am shooting at an opponent it is to kill him I can't choose my weapon based on the enemy. And honestly I couldn't tell the difference when shooting someone if they are shield tanking or armor tanking. I guess reading this concerns me if even CCP wolf man doesn't realize that the difference is so small it is irrelevant of an advantage to have more shield or more armor. The only thing that matters is the EHP. "A: I think that looking at the different weapon profiles and understanding the different damage the various weapons will deal depending on the suits you are wearing would help a lot. Recently weGÇÖve seen the scrambler rifle becoming more and more popular because people have realized a lot of the dropsuits out there are tanking shields (modifying their dropsuit to be heavily shield focused) and it does increased damage vs shields, so itGÇÖs very dangerous for those types of builds. Generally that kind of meta (most prevalent strategy) tends to change as certain dropsuit configurations and weapons become more popular. For example as anti-shield weaponry becomes more widespread youGÇÖll then see a shift back to armour and explosive weapons will become more useful. " CCP Wolfman Quoted from here. https://dust514.com/newsitem/?friendlyid=ccp-wolfman-interview-by-ccp-blowout&channelid=60&channelname=blog&newsitempagetobeselected=blog Hell yeah, it matters lol. I like to know whether a dude is armor tanking or shield tanking. Sometimes, you go through a guy's shields and then wonder why he isn't dying after you're consistently plugging him with bullets. Once, the combat rifles come out, it will be more important. Right now, knowing whether players are armor tanking or not will determing what suit I need to use for that match.

Shutter Fly Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 94	Posted - 2013.11.11 06:32:00 - [11] - Quote I find Wolfman's outlook a bit disturbing for the future of Dust, it really does seem like they are basing their judgement on the raw data and not looking at the big picture. The shield/armor balance has issues, and if this is what CCP thinks is the reality of the situation, then they are highly disillusioned. People aren't using the ScR because of shield tanking, the shift away from shield tank was before ScRs started to become much more common. People are armor tanking because it offers much more eHP, and ScRs because they do high DPS in the hands of a skilled player. CCP needs to be reminded of one very important rule CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSATION. Actually playing the game and being gunned down by a ScR reveals that it doesn't really make that much of a difference whether you are armor or shield tanking, it just depends on your eHP, which armor tankers have more of. In addition, with the armor/shield mechanics of Dust, armor tanking is generally more effective. By having your secondary HP in front and high regen, it makes it much easier to take risks and continue fighting, as the first burst of damage you take is both inconsequential and quickly restored. Once an armor tanker's shields are back, their primary HP is safe to regenerate and will continue until they take significant damage. For a shield tanker, if you are taking damage, then your primary tank is being effected, so your primary HP is never safe. Every hit you take hinders your regeneration, whether your shields are there or not. The speed penalty of armor is mostly insignificant to any class other than the scout, no matter how fast you move, a skilled player will have no problems hitting every shot. This isn't a statistical spreadsheet, increasing the difficulty of being hit does not decrease the damage you take. Getting from point to point quickly is nice, but it won't help you survive any longer if you can't get your sprint speed >9.00m/s.
Aqua-Regia 552	Posted - 2013.11.11 07:28:00 - [12] - Quote CLG don't give a ** because it do over up to 2k of damage. GòöGòºGòºGòºGòºGòºGòºGòùGöÉGòôBPO / BPC Collector Gòû Gòó SoonGäó** GòáGò¬Gò¬GòºGòñGòñGò¬GòñGòºGòºGòñGòªGò¬GòñGò¬GòªGòºGò¼GòínoneGòPGûá GòÜGòñGòñGòñGòñGòñGòñGò¥Dust 514 GòPGò¢§GòÆGòú00GòáGòòGòÜGòí00GòPGò¢
MockHolliday Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2013.11.11 07:33:00 - [13] - Quote Valid points...If I am specced into ARs...prof 4. Do I really go to basic or adv. Scrambler rifle because there are shield tankers....no Likely hood of it mattering is very small. Wherever you SP lies is what you use.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 812	Posted - 2013.11.11 12:51:00 - [14] - Quote I'm beginning to grow out of 'defence x has big vulnerability to attack x' thinking. What works in Eve does not necessarily translate into Dust. It is okay to have a small weakness vs certain damage types - but being plain and simply slaughtered would't make a good mechanic for a supposedly balanced main weapon types (rock-paper-scissors are for different use) So, I'm hoping the design trend does not go the big way. As a clarification to those wondering what will a small difference do if you can't notice it, it's not about the one kill you make or how did you die that particular time. It's about hundreds of thousands of clones dying every day and the numerical difference beginning to show there!
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 717	Posted - 2013.11.11 13:37:00 - [15] - Quote As long as the AR does hybrid damage that is "equally effective" against shields and armor nobody will care. If the pen is mightier than the sword, in a duel I'll let you have the pen! -Steven Wright
Keri Starlight 0uter.Heaven Proficiency V. 1956	Posted - 2013.11.11 13:42:00 - [16] - Quote The only difference to me is that weapons with bonus damage to armor are better finishers and the Combat and Rail Rifle are going to be excellent tools to steal kills and make your friends yell at you all the time. -1.7 ranges: AR 42m -> 48m, TAR 65m -> 60m -Goodbye my love, Tac AR "I load my gun with love instead of bullets"
Snaps Tremor DUST University Ivy League 357	Posted - 2013.11.11 16:04:00 - [17] - Quote There comes a time where you need to get your head out of a spreadsheet and play the damn game you're making.


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