DUST Search - [REQUEST:] To fix the scanner: fix angle + make detection other than instant on/...

Andris Kronis wrote:

Nice suggestions.

The scanners seem to work somewhat like this already though.

I regularly use the A-45 scanner that is supposed to light up the enemies for 16 seconds but if I don't spend enough time lighting up the enemies then they can go out even before my 5 second cooldown time is over.

If you spin around like a mad loon then you don't seem to get the same result as if you scan in a dedicated sector, focussing the scan on a group of enemies.

If you do focus your scan then they go from light red to bright red and the scan results persists for the 16 seconds that the equipment is rated for.

I usually run a single prototype profile dampner on my logi suits, bringing my scan profile below advanced scanner detection level, I also have a suit that defeats most proto scanners. This means I can get reasonably close to my enemies to scan for the squad, it also means I can tell my allies when the enemy is running proto scanners and to either bring out the uber stealth suits or not bother bring out any sneak on their suits for a bit and concentrating on survivability.

I don't have proto scanners yet so I don't know if they perform any differently but it's worth making an objective review of how they actually operate compared to the simple description that we get on the box the scanner comes with...

:)

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KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 796	Posted - 2013.11.09 17:58:00 - [1] - Quote This post has two parts. First is to point out a broken attribute in scanners' design. Second is an improvement which fixes the first issue. Both help to get rid of the so called 'scan-spam'! The broken scanner attribute: Angle Looking at scanner info, you'll see there is an attibute 'angle' which tells how wide is the scan beam, how large area you are able to scan with that particular scanner. However, on any scanner, you can just spin around while scan is on and get a full 360 degree scan. This is clearly not working as intended. Beam narrowness is not a weakness so that creates at least a balancing issue. The problem: Having a 360 degree reliable info, non-stop if you wish. This is (combined with short cooldowns) the biggest problem and a no-brainer mechanic which needs more depth. Instant 'on/off' detection and evolving away from it ("Incremental Scanning Model" or ISM) Currently, a suit has a signature value and scanner has scan value. Current model is simple: On scanners activation, depending if scan value beats sig value, all targets light up instantly or not at all. Combine that with angle problem above, the fast spin around gives instantanous vision of 360 degrees. The fix - The ISM: First, change suit signature value into a 'detection threshold' value, meaning higher is better. Make scanners accumulate scan strength on target by time, each second adding more. When scan strength beats the detection threshold, target lights up. It's really simple as that! Example (numbers simplified): I have 5sec scanner which adds scan power at rate of 10 per second. After two seconds the fat suits of threshold 15 light up. After full five seconds medium suits of threshold 45 light up. Anything above 50 cannot be detected by this scanner variant. Easier targets (undampened fat suits) light up first, dampened targets light up later. The implications: Scan operator has to keep scanning on same direction if he wants to find the hardest targets. If the scan operator quits scanning or turns away, it may be that the best damped targets are not found. No more 360 spins to find everything, only the easiest targets would be found that way. The aiming with scanner becomes relevant! ISM adds more need for dedication to scan, it's no longer fire-and-forget. This also adds a player element to scanning, sloppy scanning means the scouts might stay unnoticed, especially with lateral movement (the first step to real scan pvp). The angle suddenly becomes a meaningful attribute! If you want to find hard targets you have to keep pointing at the same direction, now if you have wider angle scan you are covering a larger area! Damped suits get a marginal advantage even vs the best god-scanners as they show up a bit later, meaning they show up a bit less on tacnet. Adds more variation options to scanners. Would also create a possibility to fix the 'Scan-get-results-swap-to-gun' abuse. Currently you get the results right away and swith to shooting, the only way to fix would be to deny people the chance to swap away from scanner (a bad frustrating bubblegum fix). ISM would make it possible to swap to gun after a quick scan but still keep things balanced.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 796	Posted - 2013.11.09 17:59:00 - [2] - Quote Details on suggested Incremental Scanning Model ISM: I will not take this thread onto discussion on numerical values or how easy each suit should be to scan and how strong adding dampening would be nor whether there should be unscannables. This thread Still, as a clarification I'll give few examples: The Scan increment wouldn't of course be as clumsy as 10 per second, but more likely 5 per 0,1 seconds The undamped medium frame Threshold could be a nice round value of 100. Note: If CCP has plans which involve signature radius being 'smaller being better' and cannot change awaqy from, the ISM can be done with that logic almost as well, however it is harder to give easy to understand examples on the numbers. It is possible to give each player a hud info when they are being scanned or show the accumulated 'Hostile Scan Value' to give the slight chance to evade the scan. From here it's possible to start creating variants of scanners: Most scanners could have the same scan time. Scan time is a very strong attribute how hard targets the scanner can find. - Better variants have higher scan strength increment per 0,1sec meaning they are both stronger and find targets faster. - Wider angle really adds to the usability of the scanner. - Longer range in meters is a simple attribute. Even short range 360' might have a use then. - Special variant: shorter time but very high scan strength - good for hasty scans use under fire. Prolly can't find hardest targets due to short scan time. - Special variant: long scan time but the scan strength increment is smaller - good for a dedicated person scanning, having lots of control which areas to scan but takes time and dedication. - Cooldown variants - Squad/Team tacnet variants
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 796	Posted - 2013.11.09 18:01:00 - [3] - Quote Bonus co-op scanning idea: I emphasize, this is just an extra option, not necessariy a good one. Each player would have, as stated above, a Detection Threshold value. The scanning system could be done so that each suit would have a 'Hostile Scan Strength' value. It would be normally zero, of course. With one enemy scanning, that value would simply get bigger per each second of scanning. It's possible to enable co-op scanning into game: With two enemies scannning, both hostile scanners would increase the Hostile Scan Strength value making it dramatically easier to scan hardest targets - maybe even making it possible to scan the ++ber-ghosts otherwise unscannable. Lore for this could be trianglulating being powerful.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 808	Posted - 2013.11.11 06:03:00 - [4] - Quote Asking for a CCP Devs to have a look at this. Doing it now on monday morning UTC as you guys prolly had a relaxing weekend off work and now, full of strength and entusiasm dive into forums...! (Sheesh this was buried already onto third page with hardly any views since saturday...!)
Meeko Fent Xer Cloud Consortium 1507	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:24:00 - [5] - Quote KERASIINI, this seems great. DO. IT. NOW. This is the main thing breaking scouts, besides from speed tanking being broken. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy
Zahle Undt Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 456	Posted - 2013.11.13 03:47:00 - [6] - Quote Great posts, for all the complaining we all do about facets of this game, it seems scanners are over looked, but I swear they are game breaking. As a minmatar assault my gameplay is dictated towards flanking, hit and run, and generally a style that uses the increased speed the suit has relative to everything other than scouts, active scanners ruin much of this for me. I imagine it has to hamper scouts too, even if the scanner doesn't show their location the person using the scanner knows a scout is around somewhere.
LUGMOS YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE 93	Posted - 2013.11.13 05:01:00 - [7] - Quote Hmmm... Very intriguing. I am digging the IMS. It could very much help scouts. But it could also harm scouts. One of their roles is to scout after all. It will be harder to find people quickly, but I am up for it anyway. An idea, give scouts a scout suit bonus, increasing the scan increment. The biggest threat to my scout is everything. My scout is the biggest threat to everything.
Absolute Idiom II SyNergy Gaming EoN. 855	Posted - 2013.11.13 11:53:00 - [8] - Quote Not bad.jpg Fanfest 2012 - Winning Team + MVP - £1100 in prizes Fanfest 2013 - Winning Team - £500 in prizes Fanfest 2014 - ???
matsumoto yuichi san SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 23	Posted - 2013.11.13 14:15:00 - [9] - Quote i am in favor of this, as amarr with 1-3 lows and 2-3 highs giving up a whole slot and a lot of tank for a profile damp AFTER i maxed a lvl 3 skill just to get under adv scanners is annoying a bit, but most because of the instant thing, i mean i am cool with getting scanned but it's the you are perma scanned that is ********.
cooldudesuper1 The Tickle Monsters 1	Posted - 2013.11.13 18:27:00 - [10] - Quote great idea, passive active scanners... sounds tricky but good idea!

KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 826	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:24:00 - [11] - Quote cooldudesuper1 wrote: great idea, passive active scanners... sounds tricky but good idea! Hmm, not exactly passive, just that the active scanner has to accumulate 'power' for just a while to detect bogeys...
cooldudesuper1 The Tickle Monsters 1	Posted - 2013.11.13 20:49:00 - [12] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: cooldudesuper1 wrote: great idea, passive active scanners... sounds tricky but good idea! Hmm, not exactly passive, just that the active scanner has to accumulate 'power' for just a while to detect bogeys... thats what i meant, 'passive' as you have to keep a constant beam on a target..
Andris Kronis The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 24	Posted - 2013.11.14 03:15:00 - [13] - Quote Nice suggestions. The scanners seem to work somewhat like this already though. I regularly use the A-45 scanner that is supposed to light up the enemies for 16 seconds but if I don't spend enough time lighting up the enemies then they can go out even before my 5 second cooldown time is over. If you spin around like a mad loon then you don't seem to get the same result as if you scan in a dedicated sector, focussing the scan on a group of enemies. If you do focus your scan then they go from light red to bright red and the scan results persists for the 16 seconds that the equipment is rated for. I usually run a single prototype profile dampner on my logi suits, bringing my scan profile below advanced scanner detection level, I also have a suit that defeats most proto scanners. This means I can get reasonably close to my enemies to scan for the squad, it also means I can tell my allies when the enemy is running proto scanners and to either bring out the uber stealth suits or not bother bring out any sneak on their suits for a bit and concentrating on survivability. I don't have proto scanners yet so I don't know if they perform any differently but it's worth making an objective review of how they actually operate compared to the simple description that we get on the box the scanner comes with... :)
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 828	Posted - 2013.11.14 03:57:00 - [14] - Quote Andris Kronis wrote: Nice suggestions. The scanners seem to work somewhat like this already though. I regularly use the A-45 scanner that is supposed to light up the enemies for 16 seconds but if I don't spend enough time lighting up the enemies then they can go out even before my 5 second cooldown time is over. If you spin around like a mad loon then you don't seem to get the same result as if you scan in a dedicated sector, focussing the scan on a group of enemies. If you do focus your scan then they go from light red to bright red and the scan results persists for the 16 seconds that the equipment is rated for. I usually run a single prototype profile dampner on my logi suits, bringing my scan profile below advanced scanner detection level, I also have a suit that defeats most proto scanners. This means I can get reasonably close to my enemies to scan for the squad, it also means I can tell my allies when the enemy is running proto scanners and to either bring out the uber stealth suits or not bother bring out any sneak on their suits for a bit and concentrating on survivability. I don't have proto scanners yet so I don't know if they perform any differently but it's worth making an objective review of how they actually operate compared to the simple description that we get on the box the scanner comes with... :) My experience is different. I always do a quick 360 and everyone is bright red (except those very rare few specced suits) and they are like that for full 24secs. Sometimes I do notice someone fading earlier, but they are always far away front on radar so it's very likely he's been a result of my squadmate's scan and I've been walking towards him. Would like a dev confirmation on how it is currently. Feeling the scanner is too simple and off balance? An idea:
Thurak1 Psygod9 D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 375	Posted - 2013.11.14 06:05:00 - [15] - Quote Sounds like a good idea.
SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 515	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:15:00 - [16] - Quote Scanner cooldown needs to increase as well. I say this as someone who runs a scanner in 75% of my fits. "Pulvis et umbra sumus. (We are but dust and shadow.)" GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 830	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:26:00 - [17] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Scanner cooldown needs to increase as well. I say this as someone who runs a scanner in 75% of my fits. Agreed. However, I left that intentionally for topic of it's own. Feeling the scanner is too simple and off balance? An idea:
Meeko Fent Commando Perkone Caldari State 1646	Posted - 2013.11.22 03:19:00 - [18] - Quote Bump dammit! This mechanic NEEDS to be here as to fix ze scouts! For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy Replication Warrior
Meeko Fent Commando Perkone Caldari State 1669	Posted - 2013.11.23 04:15:00 - [19] - Quote Hallo? This needs to be a thing. For the State! For Caldari FW join Caldari Hierarchy Replication Warrior
Ulysses Knapse duna corp 610	Posted - 2013.11.23 09:57:00 - [20] - Quote Yes! Aye! Da! Hai! Jes! Yea! Just trying to say yes in as many ways as I can, because this thread deserves it. Humanity is the personification of change.



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